Ki-rin

Re: Building Power Armor OK, I'm embarassed. *small voice* ...what is Champions:NM...?

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced? Since I like GMing "realistic" Graphic Novel style Champions campaigns, I also enforce the "they still can't push your damage over the normal doubled limit" rule. I've also experimented with rewriting it as "they still can't push your damage over 3x their base". Either works better than "standard" HERO IMHO.

Re: Creation philosophy I'll do better than that. I'll give you guidelines that I know work for an +infinite+ number of characters, and at the same time allows you to taylor things to the style of your campaign. Read pS22 "Playing The Numbers" in 4ed. Then add to it the concept that combat balanced characters do close to the same amount of Expected Damage per Turn. Then add to that the idea that combat balanced characters have close to the same Expected Character Survivability. This results in two 3D graphs based on SPD + Skill + (AP in Attack - campaign Average defense), both of which are modified by movement ability. Any character within the 3D "blob" defined by the extremes of allowable SPD + Skill + (AP in Attack - campaign average defense) + movement modifiers is a "fair" character. Any outside are "unfair". Any on an edge may need further testing. When in doubt, additionally use a combat simulator to run experiments.

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced? Of course, the character type who "always gives 110%" is a valid one too, and a character who "is almost always Pushing" certainly looks to me like a valid way to model that in-game.

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it? ...and First Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta is even tougher to get into and made up of even more impressive folk. 200 CP for a SFOD-Delta member would not be outrageous. And they aren't allowed to have much in the way of -any- Dis Ads.

Re: Creation philosophy *in Oliver Twist accent* "Pretty, pretty, please mum? What is a NORMAL thread? and where can I find one?" (or did you mean "normal" as in "perpendicular to Reality"?...)

Re: Creation philosophy It means she can control how much she gets hurt and when. IOW, she ALWAYS has control of the ebb and flow of the battle. In chess and go we call it "tempo". If you don't see how tactically valuable total control over tempo is, you are not the gamer I think you are. Ummm, no he can't. Unless he gets a shot in, and the odds are against it, Z'lf rates to win a one on one between them. THE POINT is that Z'lf and Lariat are so powerful as to be campaign breakers for the vast majority of long term Champions campaigns I've ever seen or heard of. They are WAY too powerful to even be considered as viable for the vast majority of 350-400 CP Champions games. Multiple methods of analyzing them have been brought to bear and all agree to make that point and still somehow you and Treb persist downplaying just how Combat Monster they are. Using them as a basis for discussion regarding what is fair for typical Champions campaigns is a fatally flawed premise for that exact reason. We need to discuss character concepts that are balanced for the typical 350-400 CP Champions campaign in order to validly examine the topic of this thread. Again, missing the point. The Homage version of Cap is a 650-700 CP Combat Expert, yet he's not a god or anything gross like that. HE IS TOO POWERFUL TO BE A PC IN THE TYPICAL CHAMPIONS CAMPAIGN AND EITHER LARIAT OR Z'LF HAVE A GOOD CHANCE TO MAKE MINCEMEAT OF HIM. If he's too powerful for a 350 CP campaign and your characters can toast him... ...am I getting through yet? The topic is "Creation Philosophy". Lariat and Z'lf are great demonstrations of what should be out of bounds for a typical Champions campaign. What I'm NOT hearing is advice to GMs as to how to define those bounds in such a way as to maximize people's choices and fun while having a way to identify the game breakers like Lariat and Z'lf before it's too late.

Re: Creation philosophy As I said, the version of Cap I'm referencing here =IS= a 650-700 CP character. To make him a proper Homage Build, most of those points are in places that are irrelevant to a battle between Z'lf and Cap. Z'lf OTOH, is a very focused character concept. In short, Z'lf is a variant on the "one trick pony" character we've all dealt with before, it's just that her "one trick" is a VERY flexible and powerful trick system wise. Oh and... MD/MR will Block and Reflect a Bounced shield just as effectively as a non bounced one. Cap may get a +1 to +3 Surprise Bonus, but that's it. Z'lf STILL gets to choose between full defense (in which case no one is touching her) or MR that 12d6 right back at Cap. And Treb, She IS a MA/Speedster. It's her Dex and SPD that make her MA as effective as they are. In effect, she does, and needs to, use her SPD as a weapon.

Re: Creation philosophy ROTFLMAO!! Thanks Alice, I +NEEDED+ that. EDIT: Oh God, I;'m still laughing so hard I can barely type... ...or breathe

Re: Creation philosophy So over On Topic for the thread: If there's anything this digression proves it's that high Dex, high SPD, high skill, low or moderate damage, low defense characters are not only a viable character concept... ...they are easily made just as or even more deadly than ones with big attacks and high defenses. "Speed Kills" was the bumper sticker. "Dex and SPD kills" or perhaps "The Quick or The Dead" is the equivalent HERO one. The other point IMHO clearly made is that is very easy to create a game-balance threatening Combat Monster at the typical CP levels of a Champions campaign, and to do it via multiple character archetypes. To keep campaigns from being broken, you have to set a performance envelope for your PC's based on skill*SPD*(expected damage) and tactical mobility and ENFORCE it. OTOH, the typical Champions envelope is large enough to allow many different character archetypes that effectively deliver similar results to be safely expressed. Legal characters like Lariat and Z'lf WILL break most campaigns, but that is only because they are outside the performance envelope. So, as always, the responsibility falls on us GMs to be a sane final authority as to what is and is not allowed. *Troll crawls back under his bridge to earn gold for living... ...oh, and picks nose and waves bugger covered middle finger at @$$hat who called him "just" a troll*

Re: Creation philosophy Bare in mind that Steve Rogers has +many+ places that need CP to be spent on in order to make him a proper Homage build. The other problem is that it's more "efficient" system-wise to buy a few MA and lot's of levels with them. OTOH, Cap's experience is best modelled by him having many MA. Given his base abilities, we can only give him so many levels before we start running into problems. Cap can't have 6-8 levels in most campaigns. Particularly if he has a 26 or 28 Dex and lot's of abilities. 3-4 levels is more like it. That's still enough to be considered BIG for most campaigns. Do you folks REALLY think a Base CV of 8-9 plus a 12d6 HTH attack AND a 12d6 EB and MD/MR and Find Weakness and 3-4 levels with any of it at SPD 6 is under-powered for a Homage build of Cap in >your< campaigns? If so, we are not playing the same game. The reality is that most of Cap's combat abilities are meaningless to Z'lf (FW and MD/MR and Defense Maneuver and Combat Sense and ...), or worse actually become a liability to Cap (his shield EB). With maneuvering and SL's Steve can improve the odds so that he hits ~1/6 or ~1/4 and gets hit ~19/20 or ~9/10 by Z'lf. Z'lf still competely controls the tactical movement of the battle and still always has initiative. And still almost always hits while almost never being hit.

Re: Creation philosophy Treb, it's not nice to releash Flash attacks without warning on everyone reading the thread. I'm doing my best not to respond in kind to childish and immature personal attacks. I choose to believe that Treb was this rude by accident and because of a misunderstanding of my posts tone and intent. There's plenty of valuable discussion to have without lingering on out of character mistakes.

Re: Creation philosophy Forget the propaganda, pro or con. Here's the Tale of The Numbers. The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find... ...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast. The CR calculator is correct on that much. Cap's 13" run can't come close to maneuvering well enough to keep up with Z'lf's 30". Z'lf has ~1.5x more actions than Cap does. Cap will never have initiative. Z'lf's MD/MR makes Cap's shield EB a liability to Cap (*throw!* *MR!* *Cap takes 12d6...*). Cap's base CV is 8 while Z'lf's is 14, and really it's effectively 16 fighting Cap, so Z'lf is +6 to +8 , 215/216, to hit Cap while Cap is -6 to -10 (!!), 1/216, to hit Z'lf when Z'lf attacks with MS. In short, 1- Z'lf has complete control over the tactical range of the fight. 2- Z'lf almost alway hits and does damage, Cap almost never does. 3- Z'lf is attacking up to 1.5x more often per turn than Cap can. Unless Cap gets a lucky shot in, which will likely down Z'lf immediately, Z'lf will consistently trash Cap and make it look while easy doing it. Since Z'lf is considered balanced by MidGuard standards, that means MidGuard is most likely MORE powerful than the "real" MU Avengers.

Re: Weapon not up to the Armor My goal wasn't so much to make "a more bloddy game", as to make combat realistically deadly with the minimum of special rules and die rolls. The other main goal was to make sure that even at low power levels like that of FH I saw distinctly different body types and fighting styles. This House Rule made it so that I saw Big, Strong, Knights (Armor Brick), Barbarians (Brick), Rogue (MA/Speedster), and Mages (EB/Egoist) each have different body types and very different fighting styles. That also seemed more "real" to me. ...and of course, it gave Bod respect more akin to what I think a 2CP for +1 increase characteristic should have.

Re: Creation philosophy Interesting. Using that CR calculator on a "30 Str, 35 Con, else Straight 25's" write up of Steve Rogers with 5 SPD, 13" Run, 20/20 PD/ED (10/10 rPD/rED), 63 STUN, 30 CP of Danger Sense, 30 CP of Find Weakness, 50 CP of MD, Combat Sense, and Fast Draw yields CR= OR + DR + MR= 44 + 58.6 + 25 = 127.6 A 6 SPD raises that to 130.6 So all you folks have characters that will pound The best Homage build of Captain America I could make (and so powerful that people were yelling about some aspects of it) into the ground according to Force1's CR calculator. Clearly, Cap needs some updating to succeed or survive in this "Brave New World" of combat lethality... EDIT: The CR calculator needs to be updated to allow for the AP and Penetrating Ad. It also doesn't deal with a character who can take multiple actions in a phase like Lariat can, nor with AoE or other multiple target attacks. I wonder if the source is available?...

Re: Creation philosophy Hmmm. Unless I've done something wrong, Force1's CR rating system gives CR = OR + DR + MR = 45 + 51 + 59 = 155 suggesting that Lariat is actually slightly less dangerous than Z'lf. This might be silly given that Lariat has those extra limbs and that explosion with personal immunity that the program doesn't seem to take into account. OTOH, it's an eye opener just how close in combat effectiveness the CR systems thinks the two characters are.

Re: Creation philosophy I haven't looked at any of the characters besides Z'lf posted here yet, but given what I've seen of Mike's posts, I'd EXPECT Lariat to be even more combat efficient than Z'lf. That doesn't mean I'd go any easier on him or Lariat either... ...Ummm, NO! H&LL NO. Etc. And as Trebuchet correctly surmises, even more so than for Z'lf. ...and now do deal with the histronics: Let's try and take it calmly one thing at a time: 1- C-a--l---m down. No one is attacking you personally. 2- Now let's deal with "can I read a character sheet" Quote: "12 +3 Hand to Hand Damage Classes " "4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike" Last time I checked an 8d6 attack +3DC is an 11d6 attack? Now I DID read the sheet hurriedly. Z'lf's MS is Str (3d6 for Z'lf) + 2d6 + 3DC = 8d6 with a maximum of 10d6. Yes I made mistake and I apologize. Happy? 3- ...And again I quote from the character sheet you posted: "15 Str 5", "18 Dex 16", "12 PD 3", "12 ED 2", "12 Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)" 15/5 + 3 CP + 6 = 12 PD, 18/5 + 2 + 6 = 11.6 = 12 ED Again I made a mistake (yes, I was at work, but no excuses) and I apoligize for it. 4- 12/12 PD/ED (8/8 rPD/rED) ...and all of this means Force1's calculator comes up with CR= OR + DR + MR = 47 + 53 + 61 = 161 IOW, my mistakes mattered very little in her final score. Z'lf is definitely a high powered combat threat. I expect that Lariat is worse. I post him next

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

Re: Creation philosophy I used her 8d6 Martial Strike with +3DCs added and 16/16 OCV/DCV as her main attack. (yes, it seems I was way too low about how much damage she does...) I also think there may be an error on the character sheet with regard to her defenses? 15/5+3= 6 PD, 43/5+2= 11 ED. Add 6 levels of Combat Luck and 2 levels of Damage Resistance to each and you get 14 PD and 19 ED? Assuming I did this right, Z'lf has a CR= OR + DR + MR = 50 + 54 + 61 = 165 According to that page. How "good" that is according to the rating system on that page, I have no idea.

Re: Creation philosophy W'oh, partner! Never said I was the only one. Just said that Z'lf would dominate every long term Champaigns campaign I've ever known. ...and I've said as much. Please reread my posts. OTOH, just because she's balanced for the apparently outrageous combat level of MidGuard does not mean she's typical enough to be used as a prototypical example for this discussion. Damage per Turn done vs survivability has always been my metric of combat balance, and by that standard Z'lf is BIG. EDIT: How sure are you that she really is balanced combat wise to her other "Combat Heavy" team mates? MidGuard's Bricks must be HUGE. Their EB's living nuclear reactors. And their Egoists just flat out scary. As I've said, she's a wonderful design in that she takes advantage of HERO's combat system in a way more players would never consider. That doesn't make her an appropriate model for this discussion or appropriate to be considered a "typical" character.

Re: Creation philosophy Unless I missed something, her movement is 0 END, so she's moving as much as she wants to no matter what else she does. Assuming the standard 1 END / 10 AP rule, 36 END is enough (in some cases barely) for her to throw 9 of any of her attacks per Turn. 1= This character only has to Block, Dodge, DFC, FDodge, etc under extraordinary circumstances. Her base DCV is _16_ even if she does nothing but put her overall levels on DCV. Given an opponent with a DCV of 8 or less, her base OCV of 14 means she's hitting (215/216) without putting any levels into OCV. So she's basically (215/216) to hit and only (1/216) to be hit f2f. TBF, the 43 Dex is probably so high as to be wasteful, and Z'lf would be more effective if she had 37 Dex and 4 overall levels. 2= Even some AoE are susceptable to MD/MR (that last is really adding insult to injury) Bah humbug. Z'lf only has to DCF if she's surprised by a AoE attack. otherwise, she teleports out. And that's assuming anyone can figure out what hex she's in to target it for an AoE in the first place. She'll be using Block, Flying Dodge (This Maneuver is UGLY with her using it), and Dodge the vast majority of the time. IF (and it's a big "if" one on one) Z'lf has to DFC, she has 15" worth of combat movement and 30" of noncombat movement as part of the maneuver to get her out of range of the next attack. In addition, her 43 Dex and 9 SPD means she is VERY likely getting to roll her Acrobatic Breakfall, making it 215/216 of the time, so she's no longer Prone BEFORE the attackers get another shot at her. In short, she's almost never going to be a 1/2 DCV unless something goes very wrong or there's a bunch of highly skilled attackers working together to tag her. True. Never argued that her Regen was anything more than icing. As I said, my main issue is the extreme ratio between how easy it is for her to damage others vs. how hard it is for others to damage her. We aren't there and we have no idea how hard the GM is working to deal with this character. OTOH, (and this is scary) it's possible that ALL of that characters in the MidGuard campaign are just as powerful in each their own way. If so, the GM must be really humping to give them challenges (or the players like cake walks). Except she CAN do consistent damage unless the GM special designs / modifies an opponent. Z'lf will mop the floor with every Brick write-up I've ever seen. Being both the best MA AND the best Speedster I've ever seen, neither of those has any chance against her. EB's is a stalemate... ...until Z'lf gets the initiative by MR or closes and then they are dead. With her MR and Dex + SPD + Teleport + all her other movement options Z'lf WILL get the initiative and/or close. Egoists can nail her as long as they have LOS but Z'lf can't close... They DO have the best chance of taking her out since LOS is usually farther than EB range. Again, her movement is 0 END. Her 12 REC is plenty unless she's all-out attacking. Her 9 SPD and 43 Dex means she can hold actions and go whenever she wants better than any character you've ever seen. The only ways to take her out are A- "Trap her in an Area, then destroy the entire Area in one Phase" B- Surprise with a big enough attack. C- An Egoist who keeps LOS but does not allow her to close. That'll be almost impossible without additionally using A or B above. D- The 1/2 Option. Fight her with herself. As I said, I'd love to play her in an environment where I didn't care about game balance. She's Flash crossed with a MA.

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

Re: Creation philosophy To the point where there may be game balance issues... In ANY version of Champions, she's a winner in a physical fight. (215/216)*9*(7d6 or 5d6 NND) + only (1/216) of being hit + 30" of movement at 43 Dex and 9 SPD sees to that. And that's without Pushing or a Haymaker (which this character should only do, given her low defenses, if she's sure she can "one shot" the target). Despite Treb's protestations to the contrary, there's no brick outside of the Dr Destroyer class that I've ever seen who going to have even a 7- to hit her. Between the base CV of 14 + the 2 overall levels (which she will not need for offense vs the vast majority of Bricks so her base DCV is really at least 16 in that situation) + Martial Block/Dodge/FDodge (now we're up to at least DCV 18) + the 43 Dex + even a tiny amount of tactics no one is ever going to have better than a 1/216 chance of hitting her without an AoE attack... ...and then we get into the mobility implied by 30" run + 9 SPD + Teleport + etc which means even the AoE doesn't have better than 1/216 to hit unless Treb makes a tactical error (doubtful given his experience) or Z'lf is caught by surprise or the GM +REALLY+ piles it on... ...and then we have Regeneration if she does get out-of-position and unlucky enough to get hit (but this is just icing). Her defences don't matter because she practically always does damage and her opponent's practically never can. This is the HERO equivalent of the 1ed OGRE vs GEV problem with Z'lf being analogous to the GEV. ...and she is such a Combat Monster that she may NOT be relevant to this thread because she's a game balance problem in every long term campaign I've ever been in or run. Give me a BALANCED (which means different Archetypes have a fair chance against it) character for a typical Champions campaign that relies on mobility, skill, appropriately low damage, and low defenses and then we'll a valid character for this discussion. Poor him. You are Missing The Point. Of course she could be nastier. Even without touching her defenses or giving her any other attack. Just pick from this list:Combat Sense, Danger Sense, Defense Maneuver, Double Jointed, Fast Draw, Find Weakness, Luck, Armor Piercing Ad, Penetrating Ad, etc. ...In fact, with AP and/or Penetrating I can make her "nastier" and -reduce- the DC of her attacks... It doesn't matter if she can be nastier. She doesn't need to be nastier. She's already too nasty for the majority of long term Champions campaigns I've seen as it is. Stopping her or giving her a fair challenge requires throwing problems at her that will destroy just about any more balanced character. Which means MidGuard should be renamed to "Z'lf and Middling Guardians of Z'lf." Unless the rest of the players like being Treb's backup band, That's A Problem. Again, you miss the point. Once we have a balance problem, it doesn't matter that we can create an even worse balance problem. For this character, killing almost anyone is a trivial task. There's a fine line between "intelligent character design" and "campaign breaker", and this is awefully close, if not over, that line for the vast majority of Champions campaigns I've ever seen. That's not to say I don't like the character. OF COURSE I like the character and would beg to be allowed to play it... ... if I didn't care about game balance.

Re: Creation philosophy Certainly. I don't consider her a speedster, but a very fast MA. She'd get hurt if I tried to run her as a speedster. ZL'F Val Char Cost 15 STR 5 43 DEX 39 18 CON 16 12 BODY 4 13 INT 3 14 EGO 8 13 PRE 3 20 COM 5 12 PD 3 12 ED 2 9 SPD 7 12 REC 10 36 END 0 29 STUN 0 30" RUN 0 8" SWIM 0 12" LEAP 0 43 Dex (base CV of =14=?!) ! 9 SPD!! 30" Run!!! ...and you say she's NOT a speedster? AND 6-7 DC on her =average= attack?!!!! ...and 53 CP worth of MA maneuvers (I'm now beyond surprise) ...and MR ...and a 5d6 NND This character basically hits 215/216, doing 7 DC, 9 segments per Turn... (Who the h&ll survives a Turn as her opponent?) ...and basically only gets hit 1/216. It's actually less given that she has 30" of move and a 9 SPD. Almost no one is ever going to close with her to have a chance to attack or counter attack in the first place. Thank God she doesn't have resistant defenses or Danger Sense. Treb, you either are playing in one h&ll of a high powered campaign or you've pulled a BIG con on your GM. This character is one of the most dangerous physical opponents I've ever seen in a HERO write-up. One on one she could beat a legitimate Homage build of The Hulk into a green smear.

Re: Creation philosophy May we see the character stats on this MA/Speedster?