Ki-rin

Re: Normal Human Hence the Bat "man" in his ordinary titles vs the Bat "god" in his JLA appearances dichotomy. Here we will have to just Agree To Disagree. NCM is no more or no less a "muchkin gimme" or "cost broken" than any other DisAd or Limitation.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong You seem to have misunderstood. I want to make sure that we are both using exactly the same source material in order to give you concrete answers to your questions. The only way to do that is for you to post what your game is going to be using. Absent that, the best I can do that is objective is to tell you that doing enough NND that if it would result in Blow Through if it was ND or KD means you are doing structurally destructive damage. This number obviously varies according to the Hit Location and the amount of BODY of the target. IIRC, Blow Through happens at ~2x BODY. Assuming the above is correct, if you do 20 BODY in one attack to a 10 BODY opponent, you literallly blow a hole through it/them. The above means that if you do 20 NND to a 10 BODY opponent in one attack, Bad Things Happen . Pulling Your Blow on your NND attack allows you to keep your NND below this critical threshold where NND attacks become structurally destructive. Clearly, this also depends on the SFX of the NND attack. Drifting gases can be as many dice of NND as desired without risking such physical consequences. But NND attacks whose SFX is the sudden application of force are very much capable of "crossing the line" into destroying that which they are attacking. Again, the goal is logical consistency.

Re: Normal Human As I've said before, I'm a =very= big believer in Logical Consistency. Supers are not ordinary humans unless they somehow flag that they are via NCM or somesuch. Being "merely mortal" (ie NCM) is not a DisAd in a Heroic campaign. Being "merely mortal" in a SuperHeroic campaign is most definitely a DisAd. The logical consequences of being "merely mortal" are simply the side effects of taking the NCM DisAd. I do not screw players just because they've taken a DisAd. I do make sure there are in-game consequences for taking any given DisAd. Including NCM.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong I'm trying to. That's why I wanted you to post the requested reference material. The bottom line is that you can't apply more than 1-2x the BODY of a Hit Location in NND damage without risking the actual physical destruction of the Hit Location in question. As I said, at some point a Grip becomes a Crush. A Choke becomes structural damage. Etc. Even in the real world, too much NND to a Hit Location can and does destroy said locale and often results in crippling or death.

Re: Normal Human NCM Limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do. Some attacks and types of environmental stresses you can =never= adapt to, train for, or withstand. To do so would require the ability to develop stats far beyond what HS Sapiens genetic code allows for. Such people have always been among us. They are members of HS Super. HS Super bodies literally use a different way of transmitting nerve impules and have types of muscle and bone tissue NCM humans do not. Some of them have a radically different auto-immune system than NCM humans. And on and on and on. Think about the real biology and physical changes that would have to occur for a human to be able to perceive, think, or move 2-4x or more faster than a NCM human. Let alone the changes needed to suport STR, CON, and DEX 4x, 8x, 16x, etc that of a NCM human. Even "unactualized" HS Super can survive environments and accidents that NCM humans have no chance of. (_Unbreakable_ is about such an example HS Super.) This is the source of many of those "miraculous" deeds and survivals on the part of some. Yes, some were about lucky HS sapiens. But most of them were events that involved a member of HS super. Taking NCM means that you as the player and I as the GM agree that your PC is basically a being of what we ITRW consider normal flesh and blood. And I get to =use= that both to put limits on the direction and extent of your stat development and to imperil you in ways Homo Sapiens Super can't be.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong Please post the 5ed rules on NND, Called Shots, Blow Through, and Pulling a Blow as well as the Hit Location Table if you want to get into specifics.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong I've got something that works elegantly, and is game balanced, for this concept. I'm not F'ing with it. No matter what the book says

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong Good question. As Prestidigitator noted, there is a point past where extra NND is superfluous. As you noted, damage past a certain point, NND or otherwise, will result in the physical destruction of the target. (Past some point, a grip crushes limbs into jelly and bone into fragements. A choke shatters neck structure or even spinal structure. A pressure point strike shatters limbs or rips whole sections of bone out of a body, etc etc). Most campaigns have AP limits. I'd definitely be enforcing that for any NND attacks. Of course, Supes is a demi-god with AP attacks well above any sane AP limit unless he is pulling his blow. In addition, if someone like Supes is trying to use NND in such a way as to =not= pulp, powder, or eviscerate his target, he's going to have to avoid causing structural damage. At the least, that means keeping damage totals =below= Blow Through limits. IIRC, that's between 1x and 2x the target's BODY. Even BODY modified by Hit Location. (Supes better be =real= careful about NND involving eyes, ears, throats, etc) In short, to Supes the world is filled with opponents made of eggshells.

Re: Normal Human In a world where some % of the population literally has "powers above and beyond the ken of Men", you effectively have separate sub-species of humanity. Homo Sapien Sapiens has NCM. Homo Sapien Super is literally different on a genetic level to allow their bodies and minds to attain stats well beyond what the genome of sapiens sapiens can attain. Part of the immediate tension in such a world is the underlying backdrop of a species of humanity fighting to not follow Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis into extinction. ...and it's not clear which subspecies should or would be more worried about it. (On top of that, you have extremists who want to force the issue to resolve in a particular outcome.) As a natural evolutionary response to HS Super, HS Sapiens has begun producing its own version of supers. Some are magic based. Some technology based. Some "merely" trained at an intensity level all but unhead of before this. And yes, some are the results of accidents and experiments that result in some form of ubermensch. Thus you can have supers that come from both gene pools. In such a world, taking NCM is a DisAd for a super as well as an efficiency reward for certain character concepts.

Re: Normal Human In a supers campaign, NCM =is= a Disadvantage. NCM is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point. A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage. Therefore NCM is and should be a Disadvantage. I honor it. And I enforce it.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong No matter how STR you are, one can always choose to use less than full STR for an action. I believe it's call "Pulling a Blow" RAW. Supes has a very long history of being able to very accurately calibrate how much he pulls his blows by. In fact, if Supes gets MA training, he now has more and better non-lethal options than he did before. Without the MA training, Supes does not know how to do a MA choke hold. Full stop. He can simulate the effect to some extent via a Brick's brute power, but it is not the same. With the MA training, Supes knows exactly where, how, and (most importantly for him) *how much*, to apply the NND he's been trained in to accomplish a given goal. In short, Supes has a better chance of not violating "that pesky Psych Lim" if he has been MA trained to use his powers more precisely.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong Answering the last question first, Both. If I find a more efficient way to do something that is acceptable to me in my campaign =every= character, PC or NPC, gets the benefit of it. Helps keep the attempts at Rule Rape or MinMaxing under control *evil grin* Now the other. It makes no sense (as in "it violates logically consistent physics") for a physical effect powered by STR to not be more effective if you power it with more STR. RAW, NA are bigger the stronger you are. KA are bigger the stronger you are if you are using a weapon. It is logically inconsistent for Unarmed KA or NND not to also be increased by the amount of STR powering them. If you strike a pressure point faster and with more force, it's going to hurt more. If you apply more pressure/torque/etc to such, it's going to act faster or do more damage. QED, the difference in game terms is artificial, logically inconsistent, and is there for purposes of game balance. If I can achieve the same game balance in a less complex way, it is better IMHO. Occam's Razor. The MA +DC levels were a band aid for a brokeness in the system. IMHO I have a better one for this sort of character concept. MA +DC are still there if needed or better suited to certain character concepts.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong I agree with everything you say above. Bricks and MA accomplish the same goals via different methods. That's why MA have much lower STR but much higher HTH skills to accomplish the same effects vs the same class of opponent. ...and at some point the difference in approach matter. No matter how strong a Brick is, they are going to be at a disadvantage when the situation requires more control than power. Vice-versa for the MA. ...and of course each can do things the other can't. No matter how skilled a human MA you are, you are not catching or tossing vehicles around or ripping bank safes off their hinges. No matter how strong a Brick you are, you are a blunt instrument compared to the stiletto that is a MA. It's akin to the difference between the medieval european 2HD sword vs the Muslim or Japanese sword. King Richard demo'd smashing thru armor with one. Saladin dropped a silk scarf ~ 2-3 ft down onto the other held steady and edge upward... ...and the scarf was sliced in two by its own momentum.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong One of the off topic sub threads here, one that you have helped raise and continue, was whether or not a MA like that which inspired this topic is somehow "unfair" because they are stepping too much on the "Brick schtick". Clearly my proper rebuttal of that is to show just how much said character is not a Brick compared to a Brick build for the same CP.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong Please note the title of the topic. The only discussion I requested was about how large the Limitation should be. The rest of this was off-topic. Interesting, but off-topic. What is "BJJ"?

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong I forgot another advantage a decent Brick has over this kind of MA BODY. Bricks tend to have lot's more BODY.

Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... The 2nd is what I meant. But you're right that it doesn't look very good. What about the compromise of making KA cost 2x NA instead of 3x NA. Thus using the suggested mechanic the 60 AP 12d6 NA does (12,42,72) STUN and (0,12,24) BODY and the 60 AP 6d6 KA does (6,21,36) BODY and (0,6,12) STUN You are not likely to be STUNned. But you are very likely to be dead. this compares to the 6ed standard of 60 AP 4d6 KA that does (4,14,24) BODY and (4,8,12) STUN or (4,14,24) BODY and 12 STUN using the "STUN is 3x KA dice rule" variant. Hmmm.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while...

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong Actually, No. I started this thread by noting that building this character with 10 STR and then separately buying all the figured stats plus DCs to get the numbers to the right effects was my first, and unacceptable, attempt at building this character. The "winner" was buying the appropriate amount of STR with a (-1/4) Limitation on it. Much cleaner build. Much simpler build. Much more sane total point cost for the desired effects. I haven't tried a 6ed build of this archetype yet. That may lead to different conclusions.

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack? Trick I learned from others for showing emphasis on text only news groups and mailing lists. It also is more "touch typist friendly". No need to hit shift or take one's hands off the main keyboard or type unusual 7 key escape sequences like b or i

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong Nope. Just want things to be consistent. Nope. I'm simply putting the STR add in automatically. Having been on the receiving end of quite a few choke holds, joint locks, and pressure point attacks, I can tell you with certainty that both the precision with which the attack is applied as well as the force which is brought to bear matter. Even with the same precision, the exact same choke hold can be anything from uncomfortable to instantly knocking you out; and the difference is the amount of force with which it was applied. (basically how much and how fast the blood supply to your brain is cut off.) Ditto pressure point attacks / holds like nikyo, sankyo, or yonkyo. Trust me when I say that the grip strength of the applier matters. Pick up a bathroom scale in both hands and while holding it arms length from you, squeeze the scale as hard as you can with both hands. Senior practitioners commonly can get said scale to read 200+ lbs.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong 1= The classic super brick of the same CPs has considerably better PD, much higher STR, much higher CON, lower CV, and tends to be 1-2 pips lower in SPD. 2= MA like this don't Block unless it can be done as part of a Blending or Redirect maneuver. They Dodge. 3= Despite how impressive this guy is, he is still human and still almost exclusively a HTH specialist. Any hero that flys or that is a significant EP has this guy at a serious disadvantage. And that doesn't take into account the fact that Armored and EP supers are not hampered in combat by NCM like this guy is. 4= Start looking around the net for documentation. You'll find it. 5= The whole point is to explore what otherwise normal humans can achieve with a lifetime of discipline, practice, and study vs what we call supers. I'll try to write up one of the iconic example encounters later.

Re: complex gestures and incantations Complex Gestures and Incantations means that you can't do this and do anything else at the same time. You can't do it while riding your horse or eating your lunch or reading something not immediately related to the spell in question. You can't do it if you are sick enough that you can't concentrate. You can't do it if you are significantly conjested. You certainly can't do it if you have lost your voice. You can't do it if you are restrained in any way that involves the limbs needed for the gestures. This is not a great effort like lifting a heavy weight. But it takes enough of your attention and concentration that you can't do =anything= else while performing the spell.