Christopher R Taylor

As a test, I took the 400-point versions of the Champions from C6, and gave them Takes No STUN, keeping the existing level of defenses. The cost of each goes up an average of 150 points! Is a Defender who can't get Knocked Out tougher than one who can? Sure...but I'm not sure he's 550 points tough.

Exactly.  he's definitely not.

There's no question that it would be easy to build an invulnerable character with automaton powers, but the question is, what's the mathematical breakdown?  To me, x2 makes more sense and fits better when I run the numbers.  I know that "if the Defense defends against against attacks that normally cause Stun and/or Body, it's tripled" makes a sort of sense, but that includes the fact that resistant defenses also protect against stun.  So you're doubling up on value, which reduces the effective cost for a character that takes no stun.  

In the end, the point value of a character is a raw rating of power.  If the points don't equal the power, there's a problem.

Yeah from the start she didn't really seem to enjoy the role or put herself into it at all.  Then again, she never really has.

You should always try bowing after you do a haymaker.

VULCAN

Vulcan is the Thor equivalent, the 'god' with a hammer.  In this case, I've gone with the Roman god of blacksmithing, construction, etc.  Vulcan built all the weapons and armor that the other gods use.  As a punishment for her arrogance and toying with people, Jupiter forced Venus to marry the ugly dwarf but she was constantly stepping out on him.  Now whatever blacksmith holds his hammer and speaks the name of Vulcan transformed into him.

ALL VERSIONS: Vulcan was a modestly successful blacksmith who sought greater recognition and success, and competed on a reality show but lost when their equipment failed.  Frustrated with the humiliation and failure, the smith who became Vulcan began searching for legendary, ancient tools that could enhance their skill and not fail them.  Following on slim leads and rumors, the hammer of Vulcan was found on a shipwreck off Malta, with the name of the god written on the side of the hammer hidden in clever designs.  By calling on the name of Vulcan, the blacksmith transforms into the mighty hero.

VULCAN'S HISTORY: Frustrated with his wayward bride, Vulcan created a set of manacles to hold her at home when he was away working.  Humiliated and outraged with this treatment, Venus appealed to Diana, and the two of them created a spell that would bind Vulcan to his hammer that he'd created this prison with, one that caused him to be trapped within it until a mortal held it and called upon him.  Now Vulcan can only be free, but still controlled by the personality of the mortal that frees him, when the hammer is used.

FEMALE STORY: As a female blacksmith, its hard to get respect and trust for her work.  After failing on the reality show, she was even more determined to prove herself and to inspire other women to take up the craft.  Now she's incredibly capable as a blacksmith with Vulcan's hammer, but has found a new calling: fighting evil with the immense power of Vulcan, even if she has to turn into a brutish male in the process.

MALE STORY: The hammer of Vulcan increased his skill and quality of work incredibly, but he became disillusioned with the craft when it came so easily, and found a new calling - fighting for the innocent and weak with the power of Vulcan.

Vulcan.hdc

 But I can see someone extending the logic to build an RKA with the Focus advantage and 1 charge that they interpret as creating one magic sword a day. 

Its no different than someone building a gun out of steel and other parts, its just done with  magic, so its faster.

However, the magical one only exists as long as the caster maintains the magic that constructs it (in my campaign at least, since all spells must at least cost END to start).  I would suggest that 1/day focus sword wouldn't work because you'd be creating a focus that only dealt damage once per day: once per day you can use the power.

I generally allow a -1/4 for stuff that won't stack, unless its particularly limiting

I assumed Surrealone was comparing that to the cost of continuing to use 5ed, given that they already all have those books.

Not originally but yeah, that's what it turned into, which is a fair cop.

Originally complaint was the "6th edition costs too much!" which is very valid.  I still don't have a physical copy of the 6th edition two-volume uber rules set because I can't justify the expense.  But since you don't have to pay that any longer, its just a question of being willing to move to the new edition or not.

D&D fans buy the books for each edition, maybe with a grumble (particularly 4th) but without blinking.

Everything is toxic in sufficient quantity, its just that the quantity required is often beyond the capacity of the human digestive system.  You can die from too much water.  You can die from too much pure oxygen.

Sure, because the pricing in Hero is largely based on combat utility.  Knowledge Skills are incredibly useful, but virtually of no validity in combat: cheap.  Rapid Attack is really useful in combat but overall not particularly valuable in life: expensive.

Exactly, its an end-around the rules that I used in the Codex several times.  Many Shaman spells involve a fetish or totem which they can hand to anyone, or keep themselves.  They're built as an OAF since anyone can grab and use or gain benefit from the item as long as the spell lasts.

Its like building a Regeneration Gun.  Anyone can grab it and pull the trigger.

Good point; the Hero system is a toolkit, and its used to build a variety of types and settings.

For example, I added a "mana" stat to my Fantasy Hero game, fuel for spells.  Not all campaigns would necessarily use all skills or stats and that's fine.  But taking stuff away from the core game (such as what was done with Comeliness) results in less flexibility and fewer options for some settings.  If you don't like a stat or don't think its useful, don't use it.  If you build a Fantasy Game where you decide Energy Defense is now Magic Defense, and mundane energy attacks just go against PD, then do it.

I agree, some of the defenses tripling make little sense.  Flash defense and knockback resistance are very difficult to defend.  DCV is even difficult to defend.  I can see Flash Defense possibly being the defense against some AVAD attack but that's not just rare, its an extreme exception.

Further, if you compare the relative cost of two characters built, one with and one without automaton powers like that, the cost totals are far larger on the automaton than their relative power level.

In other words: character A is a normal character, Character B is an automaton.  Character B will cost 100+ points more than Character A, and will even have lower defenses (since they don't buy any vs stun).  But they aren't, objectively and in practice, 100+ points more powerful.  They don't hit harder, they don't move better, they don't have more skills.  They just can't be knocked out or bled.

Which strongly suggests to me that the tripling cost of defenses may be too great, even assuming you buy none of the questionable powers such as Knockback Resistance.  It would be worth a close cost analysis to see if perhaps lowering that to double would be more reasonable.

2d6 skews the results if you want each SPD point to have equal value (discussed further below)

RIght, the advantages are that it skips phase 1 and weights toward 6-7 which is middle of the chart.

I've considered that, but Hero combat takes long enough without needing to go through that every time.

What I do as a GM is mix the order up if people have equal DEX, a different person on top each time.

Not sure how randomizing when you start increases complexity any, but if its simplicity you're after, giving everyone the same DEX and SPD is about as simple as it gets

I love how everything online turns into an impassioned argument.

Don't like the idea?

Don't use it.

So... you'd rather play GURPS.

As an author I've researched some truly dark and strange stuff that would make someone nervous to check out on my system.  what kind of poisons you can make from household equipment, rank titles for SS officers, how long you can survive cold, all kinds of things. 

Yeah, its really not worth all the work, but if you were desperate to come up with an analysis, the first thing to do is to strip away any variables involving just having different speed: that is, the stuff that's the same in just counting down from phase 12 as per the book and rolling to see when you move.

Incidentally: that system I've only used in combat that suddenly occurs.  If everyone is waiting to act then combat begins, everyone has a held phase, so I just start it at "phase 0."  I have never started at phase 12  and given a free recovery, that just seems silly.

OK I'm going to start posting more polished versions of characters with backgrounds, hopefully for people to examine and help tweak.  When art is done for them, that will be posted, too.  I want to start tomorrow and post one a day.  I really would appreciate feedback and information.

For example, Ace has a DOT effect, which is mostly a GM problem, but maybe not appropriate for a starting character in a tutorial game.

Something I've long leaned toward is that instead of a list of "everyman" skills for a campaign, characters get an 8- roll in just about any skill.  There are some very highly specialized skills like contortionist or mimicry that someone really has to have training to attempt, but almost all skills just about anyone can give a shot and have a chance at pulling off.  You don't need special training to try a criminalist roll: footprints, blood, stab wounds.  Stealth, conversation, shadowing, almost any of them you can try and might succeed if you get lucky.

Yeah I think having people roll to act ends up with some people either never moving or clustering all their movement at the end of the turn, depending on the structure.

In general, it's absolutely skewed toward the high end of the speed chart.

So what you're saying is that having a higher speed lets you move more often and gives you an advantage?  Yes.  Yes, that is true.

Around 6 is -not- 6.  You'll have to demonstrate to me that it doesn't have undue impact on lower speeds

I guess that depends on your definition of "undue."  I showed that the average roll gives the low-speed character no detriment on average.  And honestly, having a lower speed is by design supposed to be detrimental in any case.  Don't use the system if you don't like it, its just something I've found is interesting and fun.

At a group level it ceases to be 'cheap' when you factor in every player purchasing it.  6x the cost of CC adds up fairly quickly.

...well yeah, that's true for every game though, not just Hero.  Its expensive for everyone to buy golf clubs, too.

It is neat, but it still has undue and likely unfair impact on slower speed characters. 

Actually, it doesn't.  The average roll is around 6, where the speed 2 guy goes.  If its a 7, nobody but someone with outrageous speed goes, then its phase 8 where speed 3 guys go.