Brian Stanfield

Just to keep everyone posted, I decided to just keep everything where I had it, with the long lists of skills and perks for 175 point characters. I’ll let them shuffle their contacts, languages and area knowledges as they desire from game to game. But to make up for the point suck, I’m going to bump them up tp 200 points and let them decide where they want to tweak things. Seems like a fair solution while I figure out how they plan on using their contacts, languages, and such.

I hate to give up perfectly good EP, but I was on my computer, not a phone. As far as I know, you’re the only person who composes long essays on his phone. You’re at legendary status when it comes to thumb-typing those posts!

I love it! Thank you. It’s sorta what I did with my players, but only a couple were really into it. They didn’t describe anything in game terms because they don’t know anything about the game yet. So they have, not coincidentally, the best characters. You’re process streamlines what I was trying to do.

I've run out of "likes" for the day again, so I'll say here, "Thanks." This whole post helps a lot! Thank you for reminding me to put the players' interests up front. Since I'm making pre-gens for beginning players, I've been obsessing on how best to model this, that, and the other, and lost track of the things they told me they wanted to do. Ok, BIG DEEP BREATH. I feel a lot better now. Thanks to everyone who has added to the discussion. This is awesome stuff! Again,

This may be where I'm making the mistake: my players wanted well-rounded character concepts, which involved all kinds of as-yet unnamed Contacts just to make sure they had their bases covered. They had no real story for the Contacts, just for their character concepts. So I think what I'm thinking of as a character conception issue (how many contacts does one really need), others on this forum are looking at them as NPC-types who will add specific elements to the campaign. This actually helps me clarify in my head what I'm expecting at this point. As simple as your comment is, it really has helped me get myself focused. Thank you much!

Don’t forget the trailer fight in Raising Arizona! And if if you have HBO, I have got to put a pitch in for the most recent episode of Barry. It is the funniest, craziest, extended half-hour fight scene you’ll ever see. Hands down.

Ok, so I agree with you here, which is probably why I'm obsessing over it! I learned Champions the same time you did, back in the '80s with 2e (or maybe 1e, I'm not really sure since it was all taught to me, but he first book I bought was the 2e rules). Things were simpler then, but they were also super heroic, and you payed for everything you wanted your character to do. The heroic level stuff has changed that, and the use of "free" equipment has created a problem about how to balance things that cost character points with things that don't. See the link that I just posted in my response to KillerShrike above. He breaks this down brilliantly. Anyway, my old self would have just created a more expensive Contact and called it "I know a guy for just the right problem," and then probably rolled it over from game to game to be a different guy. But the rules for the Perk have gotten more complex, and understandably so. There's a big difference between knowing a guy in Carbondale, IL who can fix my car, and randomly knowing a guy in Shanghai who can fix my plane. And there's a difference between knowing a guy who can fix my plane, and knowing the owner of Boeing, who can just lend me a different plane. So the cost varies. This means that a dozen contacts are not actually the same as one who can do it all. The dozen contacts may be two points apiece, while the owner of Boeing may be 12 points (I can't remember the actual cost, but I'll run with your example), but what they actually have access to is vastly different. So the problem I'm running into is finding a balance between specific contacts who are very useful the entire campaign, and a rogues' gallery of random contacts who fit just the right purpose maybe one or two times in a campaign. How many should I have to pay for, since there is a difference in quality and quantity. Of course your point is spot on: why am I asking anyone else since I'm the GM?! I'm just thinking in terms of fairness for the other players who may also want to play a Contact every one in a while, or use their own Language Skill and not defer to the woman who knows 12 languages. Duke, I know your position on the 6e rules compared to the 3e rules you play. Everything has been adjudicated to very specific and minute detail. I know this frustrates you, or maybe just bemuses you as we get all nitpicky about the minutiae. But I'll contend this: the rules became longer and more inclusive, and more granular, exactly because there are people like us who can debate the rules five times over and find twelve different solutions. I emphasize that not to be argumentative, but to point out that we are the reason the rules have gotten so detailed: we ask detailed questions! Also, people have found lots of increasingly more complex and unfair ways to unbalance games by manipulating the earlier, more vague, rules. In 30 years after the first edition of Champions came out, a lot of things were learned, but only because there were people like us pushing at the edges. There were also people who were hacking away at some of the assumptions of the game to the extent that the rules had to be more tightly and clearly defined. As with all debates, once the terms become more granular and more clearly defined, there is the opportunity for more edge cases to show up which require more adjudication, and on and on and on. And now we have 6e, the most complete set of rules so far to the point of near-absurdity, but nearly all the problems have been considered in those rules. Mostly because, over the years, people like us have been asking questions and pushing at the edges for answers that are fair, balanced, and practical. I look at the 6e rules as basically a collection of all the interesting and relevant forum posts over the years. In other words, the collective wisdom not just of Steve Long, but of everyone who asks challenging questions about the rules. Anyway, that's not a critique of you, Duke. I've actually considered going back to 3e just for sanity's sake. But I also have an appreciation for the elegance of the 6e rules and what they've done to try to balance all the elements throughout the game. So for now I'm just trying to master those rules before I try anything else. Thanks for reminding me that I'm creating my own problem for myself! Sometimes I need a boot to the head to sort of reset where my attention is focused. I need to keep it simple, not just for the new players I'm trying to teach the rules, but for my own damn self!

Right here ya go: So, here's what's starting to bake my noodle: you make a good point to remind me that a Resource Pool represents game elements which are external to the character. But whether it's an equipment pool, a vehicle or base pool, or a contacts pool, they all have a game effect. In fact, you could say that contacts are a kind of knowledge based on experience: "I know who to contact in in Shanghai for situations such as this." Which isn't all that different in game effect from "I have knowledge about the area of Shanghai." So an equipment pool, a vehicle/base pool, a contacts pool, and a KS pool, or even a language pool, all have a game effect. Whether its intrinsic or extrinsic matters little. As you point out in the link above, the difference between a pile of equipment and a pile of magical equipment, and a pile of powers just doesn't matter much in game terms. The imbalance occurs when players can stockpile their equipment and don't have to pay a single point for it. The whole point of the Resource Pool in the first place (as far as RAW is concerned in the APG) is to defray the cost of some of the lesser used items like contacts, and also to put a cap of some sort on how much flexibility and wiggle room a player can have in a heroic-level campaign. So maybe KS/PS/SS, and languages can be pooled in a more generic way. @Duke Bushido, this is sort of like you suggest: A sufficiently general skill may also be defined to include a group of more granular skills. I could create a "Super Scientist" character who has a SS for Physics, but create a pool of what is included (quantum, particle, astro, whatever). Or I could just go generic with one skill and narrate the rest of it in game terms when it seems appropriate. 6e errs on the side of overdefinition whereas 3e did not. This, of course, is because there were no "heroic" level games in 2e yet, and 3e was just getting a feel for the issue of not "paying" for equipment in heroic games. Here's why I like my idea for a Language pool, or a Area Knowledge pool: I had two completely new players who've never played the game say "I want to be a linguist," and "I want to be well connected," without ever having looked at the rules. I want to reward them with good, tight character conceptions and give my linguist a nice collection of languages, and I want to give my guy who knows guys a good list of contacts. But the points I sank into their characters for these things, while they helped define a very tight character conception, seem like wasted points since really, how often is my linguist going to need to use Cantonese, Arabic, and German in the same game session?! My contacts guy will have the ability to contact someone on every continent, but we won't be globetrotting quite that much in one game session. The point expenditure seems punitive, whereas my aviatrix will have spent points on aviation, combat flying, mechanics, and a contact at Boeing, which she will use frequently I expect, all for fewer points than the dead weight of languages and contacts that the other players have. They have a great deal of potential use, but really, from game to game, are nothing but dead weight. Meanwhile, they can't afford skill levels and things like that because their points have all been sunk into "useless" stuff. I feel like I have only a few options in order to be fair: 1. Create maybe two contacts or languages: one with more use, and one that is more rudimentary, and then allow the players to shuffle them each game according to what they feel will be appropriate; or 2. Give the players a cost deduction (on top of the Skill/Perk Enhancers) to make the expenditure of each and every Contact or Language or Knowledge Skill more useful; or 3. Charge them nothing for a list of these skills/languages/perks after the first couple, and chalk the discount up to background knowledge for the character. Much like @Lucius suggested, I could tie their use upon a different skill, and simply narrate the differences in-game; or 4. Create a Resource Pool in the Miscellaneous category, and throw only specific kinds of Skills in it (i.e. only KS, Languages, etc., defined in the campaign rules). Anyone who has a good character concept that requires a lot of these things should be given a pool of points to make it workable and fair, without costing too much and becoming punitive. I'm now leaning towards option 4, but I've been learning a lot of good stuff from everyone here, which is why I even bother with the forums in the first place. I'm sorry if I appear to be autistic or something in the way I ask my questions and obsess over answers, but I'm just really curious about all the ways these problems can be solved. Thanks again, to everyone who has indulged me!

The problem I'm running into when I'm creating these characters is that an extensive list of contacts for world travelers gets to be quite expensive really quickly. It doesn't seem fair to force them to spend 20 or more points for contacts that will come into play maybe once or twice in a campaign. If I'm following you correctly, though, in your previous example you suggest that maybe one of those contacts himself has contacts, and that takes care of the problem of the number of contacts purchased? I actually forgot that this is one of the options when buying a contact, and it seems like an interesting alternative to what I'm trying to model. Interesting solution!

How would you cost that? This is my biggest hangup . . .

I've been thinking on this a bit. I like the idea of using other skills for casual contacts. But if I have a guy who's a world-traveling international businessman, it seems like he would know a lot of people from a lot of places. So for a 3 point PS: International Business, he's getting the equivalent of 20 points of contacts (based on what I've given him so far). That's even more of a bargain than a Resource Pool of Contacts, even if they are lower cost "floating" contacts. So maybe I distinguish between the low-grade, casual Contacts with a skill roll, and have a couple of dependable, but more expensive, regular Contacts. The problem I'm running into is that it seems like trying to define these ahead of time is problematic, and may not fit where the game goes. In other words, I'm afraid I'll stick him with a couple of expensive contacts that I'll feel obliged to use in the game, no matter how contrived it gets. Otherwise, why pay any points for a Contact that you never use? What ideas do you have for resolving the points spent on this character? He should be well-connected, but also have access to new Contacts as the game develops, but they get quite expensive. I've been going back and forth over this for a few days now, and still don't know how to resolve it. I don't want to overcomplicate things, but I don't want to needlessly overcharge my Well Connected guy either (even with his discounted Contacts).

Thanks for the input. Can you give an example? I'm trying to keep things fair with all my players, and they aren't all equally "Well Connected," so the resource pool isn't symmetrical if I do it this way. At least not until I figure out how to do it . . . Let me elaborate. I love the Resource Pool rules as they stand, but I also wonder if it would make sense to offer Resource Pools for languages, Area Knowledge, and stuff like that (I suppose under the Miscellaneous category). There is some disagreement over this, and I'm still not exactly sure myself. I considered using the Perk or Skill Enhancers (Traveler, Well-Connected, Linguist) as a "buy in" for the Resource Pool, so every character isn't required to have a pool (since some of them don't have long lists of similar-but-little-used skills to worry about). I'm curious to see what you think. Meanwhile, I'm looking at one of your older posts about Resource Pools from the Free Equipment forum.

You just won’t lay off the eye wear, huh? I guess you need a villain, the Cataract Kid.

Good distinction. So Lucius (or Spence), do you require a roll of some sort if my High Society character is looking for an acquaintance for assistance? Do I roll against High Society rather than a Contact, or do you just not require a roll at all?

By the way, I’m out of likes for the day, so I can’t pat you all on the back for your help. So here’s one universal like for all y’all:

True enough. I totally get it, but I’m thinking in accounting terms here: Contacts will get used as much, or probably more, than Area Knowledges, and though there are Enhancers available for both, why should a pool of contacts be cheaper than a pool of AKs that come into play about as much, or less? Just pondering here. When I look at travel familiarity, or weapon familiarity in Hero Designer, it’s easy to drop double digit points just to say that my character can drive anything, or shoot anything. The weapon familiarity is probably worth the points, since combat always happens. I’m not sure travel familiarity is. In all these cases, though, the skills, especially knowledge skills, aren’t always reliable, just like any perk or equipment. In game terms, I may “know” how to drive a car, but I may still fail on an 11- roll. I may “know” the city in which I’m driving that car, but I may forget which street gets me to the firefight quickest, and fail on an 11- roll. I may “know” the guy who can fix my car when it breaks down, but he may not be able to get to it this week on an 11- roll. They all affect my ability to get to where I’m going equally, so I’m less inclined to say knowledge skills are entirely different than perks or equipment. You both bring up a good point: I can pretty much do whatever I want since I’m the GM. I should stop worrying about it and move on. I’m letting Hero Designer dictate this a little too much by trying to come up with an exact accounting of points. I like the the universal translator idea! I may use that! Or I may stick with the Miscellaneous Resource Pool. I’m not sure yet, but I appreciate the feedback!

Yup, there is a Traveler Skill Enhancer that is a 3 point expenditure, reducing each Area Knowledge by 1.

This is kind of the crux of my dilemma. Why should contacts be the only resource? I get the equipment pool as a cap on how much someone can carry and use from game to game, and the vehicles/bases pool as well. But a contact pool is based on one's experience, much like other Skills but not exactly the same. I get why it has its own pool. The whole idea of a Resource Pool was, at least in part, to defray the cost of rarely used items. It seems to me like Languages and Knowledge Skills exhibit the same problem, or perhaps even moreso since Contacts are quite useful, while an Area Knowledge of Africa is kinda not as useful (at least potentially). Let's just say they're all equivalent. There is the Perk: Well Connected. There is also the Linguist Skill Enhancer, and the Traveler Skill Enhancer that function identically to Well Connected. So why shouldn't they get their own Resource Pools? Let's say the Miscellaneous Pool fits the bill here. Create a list, call it Linguist, or Traveler, and set it up just like you describe here: So potentially each Skill Enhancer or Perk Enhancer provides it's own Resource Pool. You spend 3 points for the privilege, and then get a capped amount of the resource (Contacts, Languages, AKs, or whatever). So my industrialist could be both Well Connected and a Traveler, and have both the Perk and the Skill Enhancer for 3 points each, and then get two 10-point pools (or whatever) that can be modified each game. This is starting to make me crazy, because what do I do with all of the skills that barely get used. The rules suggest not making a person pay for little-used but well justified skills (being a world-renowned chess player has little game use, but is an interesting character concept), so why make my aviatrix pay for a mechanic skill she'll almost never use? Or knowing how to fly every kind of plane there is? I could give her an "Aviatrix Pool" and give her a break on some core skills, but that's starting to get a little bit too friendly on the costs of skills for the players. Maybe it makes more sense to give them all fixed costs, more character points as compensation, and then allow some flexibility on how the skills and perks get used from game to game. Not every character has a list of Skills or Perks, so not every character need the point break that the Resource Pools give. So if I give everyone 25 more points to work with, that puts those characters way ahead in terms of skill levels, etc. that the other well-rounded characters won't get. This is all my own damned fault, of course, since I'm the one making the characters, but I'd like to figure it out before I tell them what's going on. Right now I'm in quick sand trying to get my characters balanced and ready for Saturday. I know if I just relax I won't get sucked under, but . . . . I guess for now I just need to hand them something for Saturday, and then plan on just reworking the characters anyway based on what they want. By then I'll have made a decision.

I like the idea of the themed pool: it makes good sense. So for your military contacts example, your player used 18 of the 20 points. Do you allow the player to add a different contact to replace one of those, and then rotate the old one into an "armory" of contacts? Here's what I'm looking at: I have an international businessman, the son of the CEO of a large munitions company, and he has a lot of contacts, as well as Area/City Knowledges. He's probably got 30 points tied into these so that he has just the right contact when they need to go flying off to Egypt to chase a stolen mummy (or did it come to life on its own . . . ?), or whatever: fill in the blank for several trips in maybe one or two game sessions. It makes sense to have a Contacts Resource Pool of, say, 20 points. But I'd like to have these on his character sheet in some form because all my players are learning the game for the first time, and they won't know how to make this stuff up on the fly yet. But if I stick him with a bunch of 2 point contacts (he has Well Connected), that's a suck on his Character points, so he can't be good at much else. Should I not define them at all? Should I define them generically (Asian Contact)? Have one expensive contact and one cheaper contact that can change each game session (the "kit" and "armory" concept)? I'd like to be able to do this for his 10 Area Knowledges (he is also a Traveler). And I have another character who is a Linguist with 10 languages. Almost every character has some sort of similar Character Point sink. I could: Just give them all 20 more points for character creation, and allow them to shuffle around their items as needs change? Simple solution. Instead of 175 point starting characters, I'll give them 200 point starting characters with a lot more AKs, Languages, Contacts, etc. Or perhaps just make them pay for a couple (say one language, fully fluent, with literacy for more points, and one at the conversational level) and then shuffle them each game session? This saves a lot of Character Points, and doesn't require a long list. I could just give them each a Resource Pool (or a Language Pool, or a Knowledge Pool) and let them decide what they want each game session. This easily solves the problem, but I want to print out their characters each game session with the list of skills/perks already on them so that it's easier for them to learn the game (remember, they're all first-time HERO players). I don't know which option to choose right now. So far I have long lists and lots of points sunk into their pools just so I have character sheets with all their items on them. But 10 area knowledges that will rarely be used seems punitive. More points makes sense, but it requires long lists of things that still won't get used all that much. The Resource Pool seems like the best idea, but it might not be the easiest solution for new players. I'm still not sure which way to go, and I have to hurry up and decide before Saturday!

Good point. I was thinking in terms of generating an actual list of contacts available before each game session for beginning players who aren't familiar with the rules. I'll probably do what you say, and just write them out by hand each session.

Nope, other than I've never done it before. Seems like a good time to start. Also, I don't know how to do it effectively in Hero Designer, since the Perk: Resources only gives the number of points available, but doesn't create a list nor does it counterbalance the cost of those items in the list. I'm considering creating the Resource Pool and giving it a negative adder (say 10 points), and then creating a list of Contacts for whatever points seems right. The Resource Pool will counteract 10 points of the list in terms of accounting, but there is no "official" interaction between the Pool and the List.

Got it. Is there a way to make this into a List in order to do an accounting of the points? All I can think of right now is to create the Resource Pool (for example, 10 point pool for Contacts) and add a custom adder of -10 to balance out the cost of 10 points worth of the Contacts added into a separate "Contact Pool" list. Is there a better way to do this?

Has anyone created a Resource Pool (APG p.191) using Hero Designer? I’m curious if you did anything other than a straight VPP for it. Advice would be much appreciated.

I’ve been teaching myself RTF so I can make printable character sheets that are discrete pages without all the HTML printing problems. But what I found most problematic was figuring out what all the elements mean when doing the code. I basically spent days in trial and error trying things out. A list of the elements is provided in the HD documentation, but a glossary would be most helpful, at least for beginners like me.

I was thinking about using the well-connected perk enhancer as a “buy in” for a resource pool. That way they pay some points for the privilege without getting totally hemmed in by the individual costs. I may run with this idea for now, since I have to come up with something by Saturday and my time will be better spent solving other problems (like coming up with their first Pulp adventure?!).