Brian Stanfield

21. Pencils or pens 22. Silverware 23. Dishes (you could do a whole subset just on the kitchen. Do you remember James Bond getting attacked with an electric carving knife? The disarm for that was to reach out with his foot and unplug it!) 24. Since you already veered away from fantasy with the Eiffel Tower, a remote control would be a good weapon. 25. Shoe/Boot

I see what you did there.

I have them all. I think the cover of Thrilling Hero Adventures helped me sell them on the pulp idea. It’s a beautiful book! I agree with you: all the supplements would be better served with HiRes maps to go with their PDFs. I think I’m going to put the Empire Club in Hudson City to start with specifically because there is such a great map to use. Now, how do I get everyone together in a way that doesn’t start with, “You’re all sitting in the Empire Club when you meet...”? But I suppose it is a genre trope to have them all hand selected for a mission because of their unique skill sets.

We decided on a Pulp era adventure. I'll create the characters, but they all came up with some great ideas for me to work with. I've got a disgraced federal agent turned private investigator, a Russian precursor to "Red Sparrow," who actually left Russia to escape the Communists, a silent movie starlet who was a Romanian gypsy who relocated to the United States as part of a circus, an industrial espionage specialist and face man of many talents, and a rough and tumble Asian scholar with his eyes on prizes that are worth more than what is normally acceptable in academia. They came up with great complications for their characters too, which I wasn't sure they'd pick up so quickly. So now to come up with an adventure for them all to use their abilities. I believe this looks like a job for the Empire Club!

So I modified the 6e sheet to include the Base Value and Cost of each characteristic. Is this something I'm allowed to post, or upload or something for others to use? Does anybody know how to find out?

This is pretty much why I went from 3e to 6e in the rules. I quit playing with my friends when I went to college, and always meant to teach people the HERO System, but time marched on and I never got around to it. I saw the 5e book a few years ago at a used book store, and my friend got it for me. Then I discovered 6e had been out for many years and I decided to make the full shift to those rules. It was a long debate with myself because I always liked the figured characteristics, but once I made the decision I’ve been trying to master the rules enough to teach others. Now, I finally have a group of friends who are interested to learn! So for the first time in over 30 years I have a group again.

My group meets Saturday to decide what we’ll run. I’m letting them pick something they’re interested in so they’re more likely to want to learn.

You know, now that you both put it that way, I think maybe I've changed my mind. It does add to the imagination a little bit, and helps explain what the stun modifier is all about (getting conked over the head is more likely to knock you out than a punch to the arm . . . unless you're a hobgoblin, I guess). Seems like a small concession to make for a more vivid experience.

That is indeed funny, but is it essential for teaching the game for the first time? I'm trying to minimize the number of dice to roll to resolve actions. It seems like adding hit locations and different stun multiples adds a tad bit more to get confused about. I may be overthinking this though . . . .

Ok, so here's the converse question to my original post: What should I avoid teaching in the first game or two? Endurance: I'm just not going to bother at first. We'll likely play a heroic level game anyway, so it may not matter as much. Knockback/Knockdown: It's fun, but I'm not worried about it yet. Hit locations: Again, they're fun, but just maybe not in the first couple of games. What else am I forgetting to forget?

@drunkonduty I love the “tough guy” image that you used!

Exactly. I tried to teach HERO System to a buddy of mine, an experienced gamer for years, but I didn't do a very good job of soft-starting the process. It led to a whole discussion as a result: What I discovered was that, without a tightly defined set of limits from the outset, like guidelines for characteristics, etc., the possibilities were too vast and paralyzing for even an experienced gamer. I tried to do some damage control by limiting things to Fantasy Hero Complete, but by that point there were just too many numbers flying around for him to understand for the char-gen process. Again, they've changed the character sheets for 6e to not include starting base values and costs (like they did in every edition before), which is flabbergasting to me. So, if I create some decent pre-gens and let them play around with the rules a bit through game play, hopefully it'll become more natural to them when it comes time to create their own characters.

I'm inclined to agree with you, although I don't have any experience yet other than remembering my own attempt to learn the game. The Character Creation Cards could really help minimize the trouble here, but I'm more likely going to start with a heroic campaign of some sort. Even if it's fantasy (which is starting to seem inevitable given my group's preferences), I'm going to keep magic low, and work with a pre-set list of spells. I'm going to generate their first characters so there is no worry about balance issues, etc., and to give them a baseline to work from for when they are ready to create their own characters. Most importantly I want them to be at least a little familiar with the rules before they try to create characters. Although I like that 6e de-coupled characteristics, it lends itself to a new problem: what should a new character spend points on in each of the areas that once were pre-set as calculated characteristics? How useful is OMCV? or EPD? It's impossible to know from the outset, so a little bit of game experience could help explain these characteristics a little bit better. After a couple of games I'll offer some starting ranges for characteristics, and chaperone them through their char-gen process as a group and also individually. At least that's the plan so far . . .

Apparently you can like something too much, so we have to portion our approbation in a finite set of units for the day. We wouldn't want anyone to enjoy themselves too much, now would we?

And by the way, I've run out of "likes" for the day, the last two days. So if I don't react to your post, "thanks" just the same! I'll give you all a blanket "like" and try to keep up as much as I can. Thanks so much for the input!

Hmmm . . . if only there were convenient cards available to whip up a nominally customized character in only a couple of minutes, which can then be printed from HERO Designer. . . . That would seem like the best of both worlds, would it not?

I've had some GMs get really protective of their DCV or Armor Class or whatever, so the players don't know what it is. But my experience has been that after a couple of rolls the players usually figure it out anyway. I haven't seen it go sour, but I guess it could potentially steal away a bit of the tension: "Why can't I hit this guy?! What the heck is his DCV?!" would be a great bit of drama, but how often does that actually happen? Have you ever had it backfire on you to reveal the DCV ahead of the roll?

I'm going to stick to the standard approach, but you've given me an idea about how to word it better. You know, you could just use OCV+11 vs DCV+3d6 and still roll under, unless you're specifically trying to eliminate the roll under mechanic. I prefer giving them a target number to roll for because it gives a bit more dramatic tension. I don't like the 6e official version of OCV+11-3d6=DCV. It seems goofy to say, "Ok, here's the big moment, you need to hit this guy or all is lost. Roll 3d6 and we'll see if it's perhaps enough to hit" as opposed to "Ok, here's the big moment, you need to hit this guy or all is lost. Roll 13 or less!" So the OCV+11-DCV=3d6- seems to be the way to go (the way I learned it 35 years ago). But you're right, every single person who encounters this the first time sorta melts down at first: 3d6? roll under? wha? Do I modify the die roll, or the target number (that's the one that always gets me in any game--and I inevitably forget). I'd love to see your Fantasy HERO Basic document. I may already have, since I started that thread a couple of years ago, but I only remember Xotl's document at this point. I'm thinking that, since everyone in my new group is familiar with fantasy, it may make more sense to teach them in a basic fantasy setting with low magic. As for alternative character sheets, I haven't really tried yet to design anything different for HERO Designer yet. I need to bone up on the coding for that and fiddle with it, which puts it right around the bottom of my to-do list these days. Really, all I want is the standard 6e sheet but with base values and costs on the characteristics like they used to do.

By the way, everyone, I've run out of "likes" for the day, but I'll give a blanket "like" here that covers you all! Thanks for the suggestions.

Over the years, these are the same type of comments that people make in different threads, and I have to agree that avoiding basic terminology in teaching the basics seems counterproductive. The mechanics are pretty much set, so it's imperative to learn about OCV, PD, and all those things. The trick is to not make it seem like drinking from the fire hose. I think there are some things on some of the character sheets that are useful, even if they look a bit daunting: I like the hit locations chart and the maneuvers chart rather than the blank spot for a picture because they are practical, incredibly useful, and minimize having to drag out other charts and such. It's when you have to flip through 15 different pages of information to resolve combat that it becomes so darn confusing to beginners (and beginning GMs like me, for that matter!).

That's good to know, and probably pretty instructive for those of us who get into the "edition wars" arguments all the time.

Agreed. They’ll all be beginners, however, and so for their first “learning game” I’m just going to give them a session or two of pre-gens to simplify the learning. I want to then reboot a more long term campaign and let the, build their own characters. I want to try to have them all talk out their characters together, at the table, and then work with them to accomplish their visions. Hopefully this gets them to build things together with lots of overlap in their stories, especially in their psychological complications and things.

Ah, got it. I’ve seen you discuss this before. I think for the pre-gens I create I may do this. I’ll give them a very basic version of their characters, and then also give them the full versions for their own reference when they create their own first characters. They can look at their pre-gens, which they will become familiar with, and use those to interpret the building process.

As a teacher, I have to correct you and say they’re no less dumb than they ever were. ? I agree with with you here, and think that the character sheets are actually a good way to teach the game, since everything is broken into sections, etc., which show the parts. What chaps me, though, is that for decades you got the starting values of the characteristics as a courtesy for beginning the character building process. You don’t need it if you’re building your fiftieth character, but for beginners I think it makes more sense to include those starting base values so that’s its one less chart they have to interpret (hey, wait, are we normal, skilled normal, competent? What numbers am I supposed to be using?!). I love the 6e sheets, but they suddenly removed those base values and their cost. It only saves a little room, but makes things more confusing for beginners. I realize that HERO Designer alleviates this need, but as I said, I’m not requiring new players to invest in the books and program up front. I think, as you say, learning with pencil and calculator in hand is useful for their first creation attempts.

Page 35 of the Equipment Guide has a write-up. Super-boomerangs are also on page 154 and give you a few more options.