Brian Stanfield

Good points all around. There are already versatile weapon length rules, and I kinda like them as a good way to simulate slipping an attack and getting inside an opponent's comfortable range, or the opposite extreme, keeping someone at bay. As you say, even in traditional martial training there are close combat alternatives: the full range of a kick won't work in kickboxing once someone closes, but a knee is one hella alternative; someone may parry your sword strike, but a pommel counter is awfully effective, and so on. It's not so much a weapon's weight that matters, but it's "wieldiness" that matters (I think you may have assumed I meant weight, which I don't). As Chris says, a halberd is not as efficient once in close range as brass knuckles because it becomes unwieldy, not because of its weight. I'm curious how to simulate this. Like you, I have experience in martial arts and know that there is always more to the story, but in game terms it would be nice to at least have a baseline to work with.

I have a side-question that I've always meant to ask: how in the world do you pronounce Jolrhos? This is a practical concern, as I'd like to tell my friend about it but don't have a clue how to actually say it!

I've been stewing on this problem for a while, and would like to put it to the group.How would relative weapon speed have an effect on combat, and how can it be simulated? In other words, Let's say a big strong barbarian with a giant two-handed sword goes against a quick rogue with a dagger. One chop with the sword and combat is over, right? Except that the quick guy with a dagger should probably be able to ventilate the barbarian before he gets one chop in. Let's assume they both have a SPD of 4, and have equal dexterities of 18. I can think of a couple of ways to simulate how a dagger can be quicker to the "first punch" than the sword: Buy up the dexterity for the rogue. He gets to attack first. In addition to higher DEX, add auto-fire as a skill for the rogue, so he can get several shots in. That's about it. It works, but what to do if both characters are truly equal in stats? Shouldn't the choice of weapon carry more consequence? The weapon length rules accommodate this in some ways, allowing for the longer weapon to fend off the shorter until the shorter weapon gets inside the range of the longer. But this is only a partial solution to what I'm looking for. But it really should matter that you choose a short sword versus a long sword, and their effects should be more than the number of dice rolled for damage. The quickness and maneuverability of the weapon should play more of a roll, otherwise all the weapons basically play the same in the game. Anybody have any more ideas? Maybe I'm missing a rule or a discussion that already covers this?

I do like it. I'm a little confused by that last point: it's quite complex, but I haven't thoroughly worked out everything you said before so it's a limitation on my part. I'll look more and think on it.

Hey, I like that idea! More to think about!

Cool! I'll hold you to that later on down the line!

I think for me it might have to do with my D&D background: THACO give you the number to roll, in the same way that OCV - DCV gives you the target number. But the more I think about the "new" method, the more it makes sense to me. OCV - your roll makes it intuitive that you want to roll low so less is subtracted from your OCV, which helps people get used to the "roll under" mechanic. Plus it keeps the DCV more hidden from the player, which is more sensible. I play to describe it both ways, although it's not really all that hard either way.

I don't like the "subtract the roll and then see what DCV you can hit" approach, but I see it's utility. A GM doesn't want to give away the DCV to a player, although they always figure it out within a few attacks anyway, right?

Yes, but I like that they were unafraid to break the mold of other products. In fact, they say right up front that it was stripped down, and a lot of other stuff could be found in other books. I like that they were honest about that, especially with the basic intro. There needs to be more than that. My feeling is that we need to get "them" in the door to see how it works, and then send them off on their own to look up all the other details they may have questions about, because there are so many sources out there! I think a character gallery is a good idea, and then combat explanations, and then send them on their way. The next section could look at creating characters from templates, with deeper explanations in a way similar to what Xotl has done, with an appendix with all the stuff to look at. Every step of the way should be documented with other books, etc., so that when questions arise people can look up the information as needed. There is no need to dump all the information on a newbie right away: just give him enough to play with so that his questions actually refer to something in his experience. Otherwise, it's information overload. You were right about that little summary. It's a perfect model, and although stripped down, it is an excellent starting point for complete newbies. I'd really like to create something that gets people learning and playing in a single evening.

I just looked at the quick rules for the Robot Warriors robot battle, and you're right: they are freakin' gold! THAT is the model I'm interested in simulating, I think. I'm going to work on that over the summer and see how it goes. Thanks for that lead, Chris!

By the way, please don't let me be a wet blanket for what you've done! I don't want this to be the thing that suddenly makes everyone dog pile with critiques, or to make you doubt what you'e done. Don't try to change anything for me. Your vision is your own, and it's a dang good one! I hope everyone is inspired by this!

Don't get me wrong, what you've done is awesome. I had the original idea of doing a section by section summary, with character building from templates, so it would be a little more generic and stripped down. Your examples are great, and I LOVE the depth you give, and the text boxes going into further depth. Some of the information you give seems to be a little bit catered to some of us who are already experienced with the system. Let me give an example: you give great, colorful names to the talents and spells, etc., and they fit in great with character conceptions. But they could be misleading for someone wondering where to find those talents in the rules. "Where do I find 'Blindfigher'?" You explain where they come from and how they are built, but my buddy (the stereotypical beginner that I started this thread for) would be baffled by this because he's be looking for the wrong name in the rules. I've already been through something like this, which comes up earlier in the thread. This is jut a nitpick, I realize. What you've done is immensely useful. I still may try to do my thing as well, and I know Christopher Taylor is also working on something as well for his campaign. As far as I'm concerned, the more the better! If you've seen the GURPS Lite link that I've included a couple of times, this is more like what I'm envisioning. I literally learned GURPS enough to create a character and play in an hour. But there are different learning styles, so as I said, the more approaches the better.

This is pretty awesome! It's not exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread, but it's an awesome example of what could be done! More people should be doing this kind of work. I hope it gets used and helps new people get acquainted with the game!

Yup, I just looked riiiiiiight past it.

Sorry I've been out of the loop for a while. I've been busy. You mention in the "Digging Deeper" section on magic for Dominika that you'd have an example of extra END bought for spell usage, but I'm not seeing it. Am I just overlooking it?

All your points are well-made. In all honesty, I wish HERO had a basic box of some sort on the shelves of game shops. I realize this isn't going to happen, but that's just my wish. But how else is the game going to grow? Good artwork on the cover is a plus. As you say, an experienced GM is also a plus (and virtually a must), so conventions and such would help. But without new gamers HERO is going to die out as the guys who started playing it in the '80s pass away. I know it's the echo chamber of a discussion board, but so many of the experts of the game are aging veterans. Where are the new players? We run the risk of becoming a dying hobby, like a bunch of ham radio enthusiasts who only talk to each other. I guess maybe I ought to reformulate my question: how are new players learning about this game? I tried to get newbies into the discussion, but I think we've worn them out. So how do we get new folks to play? We've all learned that HERO System isn't all that hard once you get into it, but what is the incentive to get into it in the first place? Eye-catching art? Nope. Shelf space in a shop? Nope. Buzz at conventions? Nope. Nothing about the game actually appears new: it looks like an old game that's been reskinned with a really low budget to people who are not familiar with it. That's always been the Champions/HERO System M.O. They had a golden age when 5th and 6th came out, but that money is all gone, and perhaps the incentive to innovate beyond word of mouth. When word of mouth is the only marketing scheme, while the mouths are getting older and older, then I worry. When you ask what the faces at the table look like, I'm not very optimistic that it will involve young people because there's nothing leading young people to the game. Why would they even know about it? I live in a university town and would love to run some demos, but nobody seems to be interested. They've never even heard of it. I didn't mean for this to get so pessimistic. Sorry. Your last point is a good one, and is more like why I began this thread. So, let me be more optimistic. We absolutely need a free .pdf available to hand out. Someone mentioned GURPS Lite earlier on this board, and I went to check it out. I read it and felt like I learned the game in half an hour. Obviously I don't really know the game, but the point is that I felt like I knew the game when I read it. I felt like I could rattle out a character in an hour or so. This is what I was aiming for when I started this thread, without knowing that it was already being done for GURPS. So, I'm not trying to copy their idea, but in the end it is a good idea. Having a 30-40 page handout seems like a must. As you say, something to take home from a con, or a game demo at a shop, is optimal. And especially beneficial would be something that can summarize the rules and give references to the full rule set to create the incentive to expand. If I had this, then I could run local demos at the very least. I plan on working on this soon. Maybe this summer. I'm mired in a dissertation right now and can't afford that kind of time. But it's become a long term goal for me, and I will get around to doing it this year. Until then, I'm still mulling things over and love the ideas that come up here. Thanks, everyone, for playing along!

Well, I'm not totally sure yet whom I am aiming this at yet. Here's the rub: my buddy's daughter had no problem being guided through the process and letting me build the character for her. She had zero game experience but an experienced GM to shepherd her through the process. My buddy, on the other hand, has decades of experience and didn't react so well to feeling helpless in the process, and he really needed some sort of translation product to help him get his mind around the rules. So I'd like to come up with something that would hopefully serve both kinds of players well. Can I come up with something that even an inexperienced GM can play with a group of other players who haven't played before? It's more out of curiosity at this point, but has some merit for a long term project. Ultimately, I think HERO would benefit from having a boxed product on the shelf of game stores so that new players can be drawn in. They aren't about to spend that kind of money on it, so realistically it would have to be a free .pdf of some sort. What I have in mind is a very quick and basic rundown of the characteristics, the game elements, etc. Some pre-gen characters available to play right away, a list of spells with very basic descriptions, and an equipment list. There would be an appendix with all the technical build information so that it doesn't have to clutter up the main text. But I'd also like to use a lot of templates to assist in character generation. In all honesty, this was the speed bump that slowed my buddy down. He didn't have any idea what was considered average or powerful, and had a hard time wrapping his head around building from scratch without a class system, etc. So I'd like to have a guided tour through the character building process with templates and optional skills, etc., to rationalize the process a bit for someone unfamiliar with the game.

While this is very well presented (and I mean well presented!), I was considering something even more basic to introduce players to the basic elements of the game. You are assuming OCV/DCV makes sense to the player creating a character. I'm looking for a way to introduce those game elements to someone who has no idea what they mean yet. I like this approach, and the rationale offered for pre-gens are something I was thinking would come in an appendix, along with the build information for spells, etc. Your use of artwork is an excellent idea, and should be more fully integrated into anything that gets produced. Did you design the artwork yourself, or is it something you "borrowed" from another source?

I've always liked the idea of a dice pool, but never actually used one in such a way. I like the possibilities here. Thanks for the suggestions.

Ugh! I read through all of the Champions Basic thread. That looks pretty tedious. Any progress on that, or did it just die? Did you get any more clarifications on licensing? I won't have quite such a problem with Fantasy Hero, but there will still be things I haven't thought about. Any insight there? I'm thinking Fantasy Hero would actually be easier to create an introductory product for because it doesn't have to make such extensive use of all of the rules and powers that Champions should. With much of the characters utilizing equipment and skills more than powers, it would probably also make the tutorial easier as well. At least in a different order, since in fantasy I'd think skill development is more primary than spell building, etc. I'll take the lead on this, but it won't be for months. I just wanted to check in.

I'm working on a dissertation right now, but I'll try to work on this in bits and pieces. It won't be the same as your other project, but I'm definitely lookin at your suggestions!

Good ideas. I've been playing around with LTE in my magic system, and this may fit in with that if I require extra long recovery time contingent upon completely draining LTE. This is probably exactly what I would have settled on if I wasn't so lazy to do the work myself!

If I go the short-term route, what do you see as a way of achieving it? I'm doing this out of curiosity more than anything, so I'm not worried about the "fairness" of it just yet. I'm just pondering . . .

I like the suggestion of a complication associated with this. I'm not actually really thinking of using this in a game (yet), so I'm not worried about upsetting anyone with it. I'm just curious how to work it out with the rules. It's more out of curiosity than anything. It could make for a great campaign hook, though, to quest for a "cure" for burnout.

Oooooh, I like the possibility of having the foci as followers with an EGO. That and the computer both have great possibilities! Thanks for that bit to chew on.