Brian Stanfield

Sorry, my intent was not to offend anyone. These were the ramblings of a guy with insomnia at midnight! Lucius, I was just spitballing here. Obviously those were all just crazy extrapolations, but my point was simply that as DOJ stands pat, they've watched the resurgence and domination of the fantasy/sci-fi world as spectators in the cheap seats. There are a lot of smaller, indy games who have gotten some marketing rights from big franchises that are popular. Perhaps the money problem is why those games don't go more mainstream, so your point is well-taken here. But I think that there has to be some effort to think along these lines. HERO won't be selling a generic superhero game when there is HeroClix available, with DC and Marvel franchising. I know it's not an equal comparison, but it's an example of why Champions won't be discovered by anyone below the age of 50. And Pheonix240, I don't mean to imply that it's "you people" who are killing the game. I'm one of those aging fans who loves the DIY aspect of it. It's "you people" who are actually keeping that game alive, because nobody new is buying it. I'm trying to understand what you mean by "failed back a little," but I'm guessing autocorrect may have changed it from "scaled back a little." Just a guess on my part, and I apologize if it seemed I was being too aggressive in my condemnation of existing fans. And yes, if I had known there was a "dream book" thread I would have taken those ideas there. They were really just hyperbolic examples spewing from a sleepy mind. So my point all along has been to find introductory ways to attract new people, but never at the expense of the system itself. DOJ is standing pat on what they've got now, and that's not a growth model. That is a status quo model which will keep aging as fans like us keep aging. In a few decades we won't be around to keep these discussions alive. I think we need to take seriously a way to resuscitate HERO's presence in the market. There are so many young people now who are into gaming, fantasy/sci-fi content of any sort, it seems like there ought to be some effort to attract them to the system.

I've run out of "likes" for the day, so I can't hit everybody's posts. Sorry! Theres too much good stuff going on! Nolgroth, my experience with New Millennium was not a good one. I never played that version, but I have looked at it and I couldn't figure out where the beginning was! There was so much art for art's sake, and it was awfully engaging, but I couldn't find the content. I guess I was expecting more HERO content (and I think I'm not alone in this expectation). It was pretty, but I think the content suffered from the form. Spence, I think if we are thinking of new eyes for the HERO System, artwork really does matter. As you say, Champions vs. M&M is no comparison. So art helps draw them in, but I agree with you, system crunch does matter more in the long run. For existing HERO fans, it really doesn't matter. Half my pdfs don't even have the covers provided. Who cares? Just give me the crunch. But books on a shelf in your FLGS out to look enticing. And, as you say, professionally done. Mrinku, I respectfully disagree with the quality of the 3e presentation. There are some things I like about it when I went back and looked at the book last night. The section headings and layout were very clear (as opposed to New Millennium, which still makes me dizzy). But the artwork is still not all that engaging. It may be better in some parts compared to the older stuff, but compare it all to 5e Ninja Hero, or 5e Thrilling HERO Adventures, for example. The cover for 6e Fantasy Hero is amazing, and 6e Star Hero is also truly wonderful. The interior art may not be up to the same standards, but they certainly draw the eyes, which is the first step in getting them off the shelves. There are so many resources for design and layout these days, some of it even open source, there is no excuse for lousy book design. As has been pointed out in other threads, even having a decent font, for Pete's sake, makes a huge difference. Fantasy Hero Complete just doesn't look fantasy-y to me. Appearance does matter in a market when the goal is new customers. HERO may have had the reputation as the superhero gaming system back in the day, but it's a new millennium (*groan*) and HERO needs to update it's image and standards if it doesn't want to die off.

I'm not exactly sure what that last paragraph means. Are you saying that HERO doesn't want to waste money by providing adventure books? Or are you saying they shouldn't? Or that D&D does, and takes a loss that HERO can't? I'm not being argumentative, but I'm reading that sentence a couple of different ways. What I've noticed as I look at all the old 1e-3e materials is that they actually did provide adventure books. Lots of them! They were short, simple, and they worked! The only thing I would change if that idea were resuscitated today would be to locate them in more fleshed out environments, but not complete settings. For Champions, as has been noted, most people don't want complete settings anyway. But if there were a bunch of 50-page adventure books available, they could be place just about anywhere: Hudson City or New York City, Valbora Bay or New Orleans, San Angelo or San Francisco, or in your own home-town (my favorite option, since everyone is already familiar with that setting).

The Star Wars example is a bit tricky (and I'm not familiar with the other one). People are already deeply invested in that setting for decades now. People will jump at the chance to play in that setting. But I'm not apt to jump at a setting that someone else spends a lot of time populating with stuff that I may or may not like. This is what I meant by "restricting" players when I made that comment. I feel restricted in the few setting books that are available (Valdorian Age, etc.) because they have specific commitments to magic, culture, etc. that I'm just not that into. Part of the point of roleplaying is that people do​ want to populate their worlds with their own ideas . . . to a degree. So I think maybe Spence's comment, similar to mine, is an acknowledgment that we want adventures, not necessarily complete worlds. We want there to be some pages of ideas to work with, but we want to color them ourselves. I don't want to have to learn an entirely new world if I want to try something a little different. I can't mix Valdorian Age and Turakian Age without some serious work on my part, at which point I might as well create my own world. I can borrow from those settings, but that's still a lot of work on my part. If, however, there are a bunch of interconnected adventures in a campaign book, with a loosely defined setting, I don't have to re-learn or adapt anything. I can just play the adventures, or add them to an existing setting, or whatever I choose. As we all have mentioned, the trick is to come up with something that is readily playable with a minimum of time invested. Get them playing first, and then let the world(s) build up around them as they expand their understanding of the intricacies of the game itself.

Sorry for what seems to be so much pessimism, folks. I'm really not trying to be a downer. I really am​ hopeful for some improvement, otherwise I wouldn't even bother to write anything about it. I think we all want the same thing in the end: for the game system we love so much to flourish (again?).

This is my general impression as well. I may be off my rocker, but I'm one of those "don't really bother" people who'd rather think up my own world, superhero, fantasy, or sci-fi. Good adventures, though, would be great! Or perhaps licensing chances with some new popular entertainment (John Wick, for example, would be a great game all on its own). I know there are problems with licensing, and it probably can't be a money-maker, but it's more about finding new eyes to see the game at this point. Chances must be taken, or as you say, I'm afraid HERO will wither away in obscurity.

I'm going to go on a tangent here for a minute, but there is a point. What do you suppose the median age is of the regular HERO forums participants like us? Or of HERO gamers in general? Is early-to-mid-50s a generous estimate? People who started with Champions when they were in college? Have there ever really been new gamers introduced to HERO, or has it been the same people, decade after decade, purchasing the new editions out of a compulsive need to keep up-to-date with the new stuff? I'm just curious, and I'm not judging, but we may be over-estimating the good-old-days of HERO. Now, that being said, I'll be more positive. When I played D&D I was always into the modules more than the settings. Once TSR began developing Forgotten Realms, The World of Greyhawk, etc., I bailed. I gave them all of my allowance faithfully, buying every supplement, but even I could see the money grab going on. And then they came out with 2nd Edition and I ditched. I also happened to pick up Fantasy Hero, the first edition, and loved it! I wasn't so worried about any particular setting because I was just fascinated by the system and how I didn't really need to buy all the stupid supplements that TSR kept offering as if there was some kind of escalating arms race of new content that made things more chaotic rather than fun. They drove the marketing paranoia that if you didn't have the absolutely latest supplement then your character would get outclassed by everyone else. They're doing the same thing with 5e now, and I quit playing it all over again, for the same reasons, after a brief stint at my FLGS. Fantasy Hero is still far superior to all of it. Now, a confession: I actually don't want​ someone else's game world. At all. I like to borrow ideas, but that's about it. I want to play in my fantasy world (or superhero setting, or pulp setting, etc.). I wanted to love Turakian Age, but I only love some of it. I don't like their magic. I like some parts of Valdorian Age, but I really don't like Narosia or Atlantean Age for other various reasons of taste. I'm not saying they aren't good settings, but I want to have things the way I see them in my imagination. I'm uncomfortable with conforming my imagination to someone else's rules. I like Christopher Taylor's adventures (Lost Castle, Two Kings Keep, etc.) because they give good content, and suggest locations for the adventures, but aren't too heavy-handed in forcing conformity to an existing world. So what do I want? Again, I'll rely on my favorite-all-over-again standby, Justice Inc. It really, really helps that it was written by professional novelists who had a passion for the setting. But what it does is present a campaign book, a great starting point like the Empire Club, and a handful of adventures and plot seeds, and that's it. They didn't over-do it. Their use of a choose-your-own adventure style intro is even useful to show how the rules work. They gave enough of an idea to run with, and left it up to me to see the rest. Heck, one of the adventures is 2 pages, but is complete! If I want to drop the Empire Club into Hudson City, I can. Or I can drop it into Des Moines, Iowa for all it matters. The adventures are what make that product so damn good!!! I don't need to buy into an entire world to play them, and I can play them the same night I read them. The other extreme, as has been said, is to use an existing world. The Monster Hunters International model is commendable, but may be a bit too late. Think of all that has happened in the last 20 years that has made the fantasy/sci-fi genre explode in popularity: the ​Lord of the Rings movies (and, unfortunately, the Hobbit too), all the Marvel/DC movies, the rebooting of Star Trek and Star Wars (excluding those unfortunate Lucas-made prequels), Harry Potter (which brought fantasy to a whole new generation of kids looking for ways to play in that world), and even a brief gem of Firefly (and its excellent movie Serenity). A whole new generation of kids have grown up in a world where fantasy/sci-fi is not only accepted, but it actually the norm. If I was a kid today I would buy any game that had any of these things on the cover. Monster Hunters International, unsurprisingly, trends toward an older audience, and remains stagnant. Imagine if someone from HERO had the balls to get licensing rights from Harry Potter back when 5th edition came out?! Even now there are a bunch of Firefly games out there, but Star Hero could have really won out if someone were thinking "younger" at HERO. So, now the company is back to xeroxing copies of the books at a building in Nevada (I exaggerate, sorta) to ship out one at a time to whoever happens to order it. Sounds like the early '80s all over again. What's my whole point? I want adventures, as has been pointed out, but not necessarily dense settings. I'd love some outlines, plot lines, maybe some background assumptions (magic system, tech level, classes or professions, etc.) to build from, but adventures are more important for me. As has been said, if you can hook people, new people, with a good story and a quick and easy-to-learn version of the rules, and then point them to a big new world of possibilities in the core books, that seems to be the best plan. A product line would be great in the big picture, but I'm not inclined to follow the same money-grabbing model of D&D or Pathfinder. I loathe the idea of forcing a world on people rather than introducing them to some new possibilities and broad strokes. And dangit, now I'm getting myself all wound up. I'll have to write something myself, as Christopher Taylor points out. But first I have to write a damn dissertation and get it out of the way. Until then I'll keep complaining and dreaming. I'll try not to whine though.

Agreed! I'm not so worried about he generic names as reference books, and I'm perfectly happy with 6e1&2 as the core rule set. The Complete books are half measures, and I'm not really sure they're solving anything. They are even causing a little bit of confusion about some slight rules differences. When I need to check the rules, I go straight for the big books because I know the answer is in there. I mentioned some of the settings as examples, but I also agree with you that it's all pretty tired. But Monster Hunters International is a standalone product with no other genre crossover in 6e. I guess is could be considered an example of Urban Fantasy Hero, updated for 6e. But what I'm curious about is this: I love the way MHI is complete in itself, but does that need to be done for every product created? Fantasy has so many campaign settings, so we have to create a separate game for each one? I guess it's really not a problem, in the big picture, if they all agree with the 6e1&2 core rules, but it seems like a lot of duplication. I almost said unnecessary duplication, but I guess that's precisely what's in question: is it unnecessary, or is it precisely necessary? One other point: Generic names don't seem to ward people away. Dungeons & Dragons is as generic a name as you can get, but they have so many support materials nobody cares. 5e is far from unified, but they have such great campaign books it hardly matters. The rule set is consistent across them. I think that it's the artwork and presentation that gets people to buy stuff, in all honesty. HERO stuff looks so amateurish that I'm sure people look right over it. I remember looking at the original Champions and thinking it looked like someone printed it in their basement (which is actually pretty accurate). But every edition afterwards has suffered the same problem, even as they got big and flashy in 5e and 6e. The full color stuff is catchy, but the quality is more important than the color. I love the new Strike Force book, for example, and it's big and colorful, but it looks like drawings I did in high school, and people will be turned off by that. Bad artwork is worse than no artwork, as far as I'm concerned. And yes, people do judge a book by its cover. If I ever do my project, I'm going to shell out some money for some good artwork! After I win the lottery . . .

So I've been thinking on this a little more. Let me go back to Justice, Inc. as a model. It has a rule book and a campaign book, so it actually follows the present model of core rules and separate setting/campaign book. It also includes adventures in the campaign book, which makes it so easy to learn and play out of the box. Other adventures and genre books were also produced, and they depended on the original rule book, pretty much like what we have in today's arrangement. So what do we do if there are several people writing different campaign books and adventures for the same rule set? Let's say several different fantasy settings with campaigns and adventures. Wouldn't it be better if they all used the same core rules, like Fantasy Hero Complete, didn't have to re-write the rules, and could move on to writing adventures instead? What we need are adventures to fit in with existing settings, not a whole new project built from the ground up. Adventures for Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, Narosia, and so on don't require a rehash of the rules. I bring this up because of what you said: Monster Hunters International isn't all that different from the fantasy settings, it just presents the rules and character creation as well. Valdorian Age doesn't need to do that if the rules are already available. Would it be an improvement to create a separate complete game called Valdorian Age, which is different from Turakian Age: The Game, etc.? Couldn't they just say "this particular setting interprets the core rules in this way, which is different from how the other settings interpret the rules.?" That brings us back to the problem of people having to learn the rules before the setting. It allows for multiple settings, but it's also an overload of generic rules. So maybe there should be a Fantasy Hero Basic with the simplified rule book and campaign book with adventures, with lots of references for how to expand the rules as they get comfortable with the basics, and suggest ways to expand the setting or where to find other settings. Champions Basic could do the same thing, with references to Champions Universe to expand future campaigns. I guess what I'm getting at is this: Justice, Inc. is really a basic rule book with more supplements to keep it going. It's HERO Basic written for its genre at the time, in the same way I'm picturing Champions Basic or Fantasy Hero Basic, or an updated Pulp Hero Basic. Brief basic core rules with supplements to make them usable right out of the box. And yes, I think the box does matter. I don't have my box for Justice, Inc. anymore so I don't remember all that came in it, but a box nowadays, in my mind, would have simplified rules, a campaign book, character sheets, an advertisement for other HERO products that could supplement it, maybe even some dice so new folks don't have to go raid their Risk box for dice. I think we need both approaches going on. We need campaign/adventure books for the existing genres in the existing rule sets. They don't need to be separate games, made with HERO, as much as they have to be clear focuses on which rules are relevant and which aren't. Fantasy Hero Complete and Champions Complete almost do this, but they are still campaign-neutral. Fantast Hero Complete actually does provide a setting and adventures as extras, so it comes closer to providing a model, even if it is still a little bit general. New campaign books would have to make choices on magic, equipment use, etc., used in their respective settings. But if there are multiple Champions campaign books, isn't it better that they all point to the same core rules, despite their generality, rather than rewrite the rules with each new game/setting/campaign book that comes out? It's not a bad idea to have simpler "play in one night" games as well, more like you describe, but without the need for duplication. I don't mean to rehash past conversations in this thread. I'm jus thinking out loud. And at length. Sorry....

Good point. We've all been talking about generic starter projects for so long, it's hard to shift my point of view. So you're suggesting something along the lines of Turakian Age, or Hudson City but with the rules included so it is a self-contained game, setting, and adventures, right? Justice, Inc. is an older example, but Monster Hunters International is another great example. You're probably right about this. I suppose I really need to just start writing and getting something together and then find partners to get it produced. That seems to be how it worked in the old days , if I'm not mistaken.

HS6e1, page 139, to of first column: "The Character Points gained or lost via an Adjustment Power (except Healing) fade/return at the rate of 5 Character Points per Turn. The points are usually regained at the end of Segment 12 when normal Post-Segment 12 Recoveries are recorded. Individual Power descriptions note exceptions or other special rules." HS6e2, page 129, bottom of first paragraph: "Other game events that occur in Post-Segment 12, such as the fading of an Adjustment Power or the gaining of BODY from Regeneration, take place before the Post-Segment 12 Recovery." Of course, post-segment 12 isn't actually a segment, and no time expires, so it doesn't seem to me that any sort of other "game events" should be taken except for recovery. Technically the fade is happening in Segment 12, at the very end. But I'm inclined to agree with Surrealone and do the fade in the segment each turn in which it was activated.

HS6e2, page 7, gives the basics for this. In HtH Mr. Longshot would have 1/2 OCV and 1/2 DCV. In ranged combat he'd be 0 OCV and 1/2 DCV. There is more on PER rolls with non-targeting senses, to which range modifiers apply. The PER roll is a half phase action, and if successful HtH is at 1/2 OCV and -1 DCV, while ranged is at 1/2 OCV and full DCV. This lasts for one phase only, at which point a new PER roll is made in Mr. longshot's next phase if he wants to continue vaguely targeting the invisible opponent. Likewise, he suffers the original penalties against all other opponents while he focuses on the single opponent with his non-targeting sense.

I've been going back and reading the older games like Juctice, Inc. and am just amazed all over again at how good they were. Of course, it was a product of Aaron Allston, so it shouldn't be surprising. We need more games like that! So, what are the actual logistics of doing it in terms of licensing? I mean, I could produce a stripped down version of Fantasy Hero, and we had a very lively discussion about that earlier this year ( http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94641-problems-with-fantasy-hero-complete-and-newbies/ ). So what if I wrote a 90 page book of simplified rules, character design, equipment and spells, with an entire campaign world sketched out with half a dozen seeder adventures, and put it in a basic box? Could I actually get DOJ to publish it? Would they even want something that would basically be competing with Fantasy Hero Complete? In my mind it would include references to the core books and/or FHC, and act as a way to introduce the toolbox idea while also giving a game to jump into right away. Hopefully curiosity on how to expand the rule set, character creation, etc. would lead to learning the core rules, but this wouldn't be essential right away. It would be easy to create a supplemental campaign book with more adventures, etc., built on this starting point. Again, just look at Justice, Inc. for the perfect model. Now, perhaps a Fantasy Hero Basic, or a Champions Basic ( http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92795-champions-begins-the-gm-starter-pack/?hl=%2Bchampions+%2Bbasic ) would be a conflict of interest. But High Rock Press announced plans for updating Danger International, so maybe this is the model to follow. Perhaps it's time to bring Pulp Hero/ Justice, Inc. to 6e? There'd be no conflict of interest, and it may actually serve to show whether these ideas will work. But in all honesty, what are the odds of getting DOJ to back a project like this? Or even to allow someone to do it independently, billed as a gamed "built with HERO System." I know, the usual answer is, "zero chance." What if they didn't have to pay for it? What if Kickstarter funded it? I'm just spitballing here, but I'm seriously considering what it would take to reach a tipping point on a project like this.

Just in case you didn't know, Traveller Hero is available as a series of pdfs on a CD. Check this out, top row center: http://www.farfuture.net/FFE-CDROMs.html

Any plans for a Kickstarter on this?

This would be the BBB version. It's a Super(hero) Sport!

The nerve of some people and their so-called "real" lives,

Can you elaborate on this? I'm curious about what people's long-term experiences are with GURPS. I'm part of a regular GURPS group, but I'm a HERO guy myself. I'd like to get them to try it out, but they seem content with what they've got with GURPS. I'm not totally sold on it, but can't quite put my finger on it.

Doc, what's the chance you have that simple layout as a hero designer export?

For what it's worth, the .pdf is available through the store now.

Steve Long answered a similar question in the rules forum: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/95584-environmental-fire-damage-rate/ He says every segment for a fire, but other environmental effects aren't discussed.

I came to the same conclusion about the grimoires. They are helpful for new folks, but Champions Powers is organized a little better and easier to find ideas or templates for spells. Just add the same limitations as all other spells in your campaign and you're good to go, especially if you don't have a lot of rules regulating the use of spells. The 6e Hero System Skills is identical in pagination to The Ultimate Skill in 5e. This was intentional on their part, but with some updates for the 6e rules. This is the clearest example of a re-publish for the new rule set. Some of the other things aren't as clear to me, and some just don't exist anymore. As Nolgroth says above, the genre books they aren't as rule-dependent, and so can be used for any edition with only a low amount of fiddling.

So, out of curiosity, I'm wondering which 6e books are the equivalent of previous editions, but under different names. Part of what I like about 6e is it's exhaustive cumulation of all previous editions, but are some of those things left out? For example, Hero System Martial Arts seems to be a compendium of both Ninja Hero (4e and 5e) and the Ultimate Martial Artist (5e). Is there a list, or can we compile one, of what the 6e books resuscitate from previous editions? For another example, is there a 6e equivalent for the 4e book Champions 3-D?

Thanks for that update. I didn't think to ask you when I saw you at Origins. It didn't occur to me he would be there. I would have loved talking with him. It was good to see you though.

Edit: Duplicate post