Megastranger

This is something that trips up a lot of new players, I have noticed, and frankly, deserves to be repeated.
 
 
 
And this is something that trips up a lot of GMs, new or otherwise, and _also_ deserves to be repeated.
 
That second one seems to be a bigger issue since the advent of "reach into your pocket and talk to a thousand strangers."  Things like this board-- wonderful tools that they are-- have serious consequences as well.  Once we start talking about "well the book says" and then we get into discussion where we all agree "well, yes; that is what the book says" and we start making unconscious efforts to play in ways that we perceive to be similar to or at least "approved of by" relative strangers who, realistically, will never sit at a table with us---  we start to emphasize the _letter_ of the law versus the over-all point of the law.
 
Everyone has, at one time or another-- even me-- gotten all uppity and hoity-toidy and from behind our sneering disdain whipped out "A limitation that doesn't limit is worth no discount."
 
Folks, I tend to find Multiform dumps easily into the category.  The whole construct "Multiform" is just points on trees.  "You'll have to buy that skill twice" isn't that much of a deterrent if you're buying it the second time for 1/5 of the actual cost  (Yeah-- don't start.  I know "that both forms pay full price," but what do you pay for that entire second form?  one for five of everything that's on that form.  That's it.  Everything on there is 1/5 cost.  If (going 4e here; if it's changed in later editions, ignore this part) you happen to have more than one form, the third and greater forms are paying _one tenth_ the actual price.
 
One-for-Five is a -4 Limitation.  Minus FOUR!   I can get a -2 for "only under a full moon!"  I bet I can get into that other form more frequently than that!.
 
Certainly we can say "well, the Hero form doesn't get the skills of the base form."  Well...   if he really needs it, it's what?  A half-a-Phase away?  Go whole hog!  Perhaps if the other form doesn't have the memories of the base form, either.  Neither the memories nor the motivations.  Then I might buy a -4:  "Well, there's a chance that if I yell "Shazam," I might never come back.  I might forget who I am or why I summoned Captain Marvel!  Suppose he forgets I exist?  I might never be Billy Batson again!"  That's pretty risky; I might go up a bit on the Limitation for that.  _Possibly_-- and only _possibly_ a -4.
 
Here's the thing:
 
"You're all gathered in a tavern."  
 
When the adventure starts, half the players are going to be hanging out at the team base.  More than half, perhaps.  Uh-oh!  I need my PowerDude persona!
 
You're hanging out at the team base as...  not PowerDude?  Doubtful. But if you are, then it's a better-than-good chance that your teammates are well-aware that you are, in fact, PowerDude.  There is nothing stopping you from changing into PowerDude.  Honestly, this is probably the safest place you could actually do that.
 
How else do games start?  PowerDude in on patrol over Megalopolis when suddenly--
 
Oh.  Already PowerDude.  Already accessing all those -4 Limitation powers.  Didn't have to change or nuthin'....   cool.  Nah, it's cool.
 
To be fair:  There might be people out there who enjoy roleplaying the day job, typing up those QSP reports, rolling dice to see what you misfiled, and paying the bills.  Two or three sessions from now, you might access your PowerDude form.  You'll have to be sneaky, though: Ben from accounting has been putting those little cameras in the cubicles and posting those creepy "candid day job" videos to the 'net.   Jimmy and Kate got fired, so you _know_ there's one in the broom closet....
 
Most of us didn't make superheroes to play, if I may borrow the line, "Houses and Humans."  We made superheroes to play superheroes, and that's what we're going to play.  Most GMs don't want to run Houses and Humans  (and again, if that's your bag, go for it:  frankly, you're helping my case a bit).
 
So why is this worth a -4 to begin with?!   Get a third and subsequent form for a minus NINE limitation!  Just run through the book and grab all the -1/4 limitations you can find and see what sort of problems you're going to have with a power by the time you get it to -4, let alone -9!
 
And the only drawback you're really going to encounter is that perhaps twice a session you have to pay lip service to hiding around the corner before yelling Shazam.
 
 
Yes: the book says Multiform is -4, but couches it as "Five for one."  The "limitaiton" is that you can't use the skills / abilities of the other form.  The book also says that changing forms "might take a half phase."  MIGHT!  (5e; I wasn't wading through 6e for this discussion).  It might _not_ take a half phase.
 
If I put "takes a half phase to use my MegaBuster," can it get a -4 on it?  Of course not.
 
So...   
 
Honestly: how many people here play Multiform in such a way as to justify this extreme cost reduction?   How do you do it?   Time limits on the form is cool.  Difficulty changing is cool.  Cool-down periods; those are excellent:  Only once per day, something like that?
 
 
But wait!  Since Multiform is a _power_ (I swear to Pete it should be classed as a Framework if it continues on into the next edition), I can add all those things _to_ it, and make it even cheaper!  This just can't lose.....
 
 
And of course, the savvy Min/Max guy will note that while in SuperDude form, you are locked away from your Normal Joe form; shouldn't you get some kind of reciprocal discount on that?  It's the same thing!  In fact, you are likely going to spend _way_ more time as SuperDude during play than you are as Normal Joe, so that discount should be even bigger!
 
We don't play out the bulk of the character's everyday life.  We just don't.  We play out the bulk of their adventurous life.  As such, how much of a disadvantage is it to be "locked away" from Superform if we are going to spend the bulk of playtime _in_ superform?   You know the saw:  A limitation that doesn't limit, etc, etc.
 
So what's a realistic value for this?
 
We'll get there.
 
I have stated before that Multiform and Shapeshift both most likely came about because people forgot about "only in HERO (alternate / appropriate) Identity (form)."
 
_That_ Limitation has been around since 1e Champions.  Strangely (I haven't responded because I've been re-reading the book to be sure), it seems to have skipped 3e Champions-- and 3e Champions and other 3e books are where 4e came from, right?  Well 4e introduced Multiorm.  (I seem to recally it may have appeared in Champions 3, but I haven't the time or energy left to check that.  Feel free to prove me wrong, though).
 
Only in HERO ID is, of course, _not_ Multiform, in as much as it doesn't automatically rule out using David Banner's brains while he's the Hulk, right?
 
So what's a good value for a limitation- like Multiform-- that is more set-dressing and off-camera storyline than a serious inconvenience?
 
I'm thinking about -1/4.
 
Why am I thinking that?
 
Because that's what the original value was:  Only in Hero ID (now called "only in alternate id," I believe) was worth -1/4.  Strangely, it still is.   Best of all, it only locks out what you want it to lock out, and you decide by putting it on what you want to lock out.  Don't want Banner's Brains while you're hulked out?  Then put "Only in appropriate ID" in his INT, too (or maybe his INT above 8 or so).  Don't want Hulk's superleaping while you're studying all things science?  Fine.  Only in appropriate ID.
 
Not only does it more accurately model the _real_ limitation that the  character is enduring, it works just the way that Munchkin Man has postulated for years:  He can get the same discount for the things he can't access while he is SuperDude.
 
 
Now, for those who are interested, spurred on by comments in another thread and the noticeable absence of certain individuals of late, let me show you sort of what I've been doing for years-- don't get me wrong: I still have the periodic multiformer, but we do 4e rules, where the most expensive form pays for all others, regardless of which is the "base" or "true" form.  (In practice, that has seriously shut down the amount of munchkinny uses for multiform, but your mileage will no doubt vary)
 
 
Only in Appropriate Form:  -1/4
 
Cumulatively modified as follows:
 
Character has a secret Identity:.........................................-1/4
Character has more than one form in which 
Power is not available..........................................................-1/4
 
Requires Full Turn to change form:.....................................-1/4
Requires more than 1 minute to change:...........................-1/2
 
Requires complex "ritual" or external
components to achieve change of forms..........................-1/4
 
Character can be prevented from changing
forms by relatively obvious or simple means.....................-1/4
Character can be prevented from changing
forms by relatively obvious _and_ simple means...............-1/2
 
Character may maintain appropriate form 
indefinitely............................................................................-(-1/4)
Character may only maintain appropriate form
For one day.................................................................................0
Character may only maintain appropriate form
for one hour.............................................................................-1/4
Character may only maintain approrpiate form 
for five minutes......................................................................-1/2
 
Character can only change forms once per hour...............-1/4
Character can only change forms once per day................-1/2
 
There. 
 
That's it.
 
That's how the House Bushido Playgroups do both Multiform and Shapeshift.
 
You can take the original -1/4 and have only -1/4's worth of problems, or you can run it up to as high as -3, only with your problems spelled out for you, so that we both know what to do to create the actual limitation you're taking.  This system let's you take bonuses by "locking out" each form away from the other: Jekyl is discounted for being locked away from Hyde; Hyde is discounted for being locked away from Jekyl.
 
And _no one_ is getting -4 for this, let alone -9.
 
(for rare concepts, I have allowed the Only in appropriate form to start at -1/2 instead of -1/4.  Even then, max possible bonus is less than -4!).
 
 
 
Well, that's out now.
 
 
😕
 
 
 

Back in the Fourth Edition rulebook there was a section on Powergaming in Hero.  They said that making a good character was what everyone wants but this is the guy who "takes Missing One Hand as a Disadvantage, but tries to get it per finger in order to get more points out of it."
It then goes on to give helpful tips on powergaming builds like "PlanetMan" who buys enough shrinking to keep planets in his pocket and then throws them at people, or "LandLord" who used the base building rules to buy all the space in the observable universe.

The basic point of it was that Hero lets you do anything, but that doesn't mean you should do anything.

Multiform exists because there are certain characters that greatly benefit from being able to buy it rather than do all kinds of torturous things with other rules to simulate that they are three different guys timesharing one body.  Hero doesn't tell you what you can't do, it gives you tools to build whatever you want and trusts your gaming group to all build things everyone will have fun with.

I believe that the way I phrased the question may have caused confusion. I am speaking more so on a game mechanics level.  Lets pretend that he has a public ID and we use Shazam as an example. My players want to use Multi form to have a 400 CP true form and for 80pts have a 400 Hero form strictly for Powers and Perks.  Aka a 400CP Billy Baston and a 400 CP Shazam vs a 400CP Superman with one form who is both Superman and Clark Kent.  (I realize superman is way more than 400pts lol)
 
Thanks! 

Secret ID assumes the PC doesn't just have a mask, but has expended resources to actively hide or obscure any possible connection between their normal self and their powered up self.  
 
Not having Secret ID doesn't just open you up to attacks by enemies, but paparazzi, fans, critics, lawyers and anyone else that feels the need to camp on your lawn once they notice you.  An active superhero runs the risk of gaining Public Identity if they are not careful.  

Obvious answer is if someone discovers your secret Id, they can attack you when you're vulnerable 

I am not entirely clear as to what you're asking.
 
If you are asking about the Disadvantage / complication "secret identity," then it's irrelevant: taking this Disadvantage means that you have difficulty maintaining a Secret Identity, or that your dual-life is routinely problematic.  Not taking this Disadvantage, as Spence mentioned,  does not mean that you don't have a Bruce Wayne / Batman dual life going on; it simply means that it's just not a problem:  being Super never interferes with being non-super, and no one really has a clue nor are they likely to get a clue as to just who you are with or without the mask.
 
If you are asking about how to control the potential power gamer that Multiform can unlock, consider instead disallowing Multiform and instead using Only in Hero(ic) Identity.  There is nothing about this Power Limitation that prevents the character from looking different in his Hero Identity, and it doesn't really pile on the...  well, I hate to say "freebies," but that's effectively what it is-- that Multiform offers.
 
So....   similar / same feel; tighter control over power levels.   That's the core difference between the options.
 
 
But again: I really am not certain what you're asking, so if I missed completely, forgive me.
 

You are not wrong.
 
What I was pointing out was the tendency to confuse any of these three things with the disadvantageousness of having them.  Simply because I have a secret Identity does not mean that I have the Secret ID Disadvantage.  If things just always happen to work out so that I am not needed in one persona when I am needed in another, and no one ever stops to think "Hmmm....  Victor Cabrone looks an _awful lot_ like Captain Not Victor Cabrone.....  Then I do not have a Secret Identity disadvantage.
 
It's that part of "both of these are worth points for obvious reasons"--  they aren't.   They are worth points for the reasons listed in the description, and logical expansions from there.   When you take the points for that disadvantage, you are saying "I have these problems."  When you don't take that disadvantage, you saying "I don't have these problems;" you are _not_ saying "I don't have a secret identity."
 
 
It's like any other part of the game:  
If I buy flight, I can opt to have that flight as OAF: Jet boots.   In doing so, I am saying that I have a very specific set of problems related to my Flight.   If I buy Flight-- no OAF, no OAID/ OHID, no custom limitations-- just Flight-- then I do _not_ have any problems related the use of the flight.  If I don't accept points for accepting a problem, then I don't have that problem.
 
If I buy Extra Limbs: two more arms, I expect to be able to hold four tennis rackets.  I _don't_ expect to be able to play tennis, but I expect to be able to hold a racket in each hand (or, for the pedants among us, one tied to each arm, since 'uh-oh!  You didn't say "_hands_!" ).   If I take the Disadvantage "missing arm," then I expect to be able to hold _one_ tennis racket (unless I'm playing with pedants, in which case "I didn't say _hand_!")
 
If I do _not_ take Extra Limbs and I do _not_ take Missing arm, yet the GM only allows me to hold one tennis racket, ever, there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how points-build works:
 
Much like the cringe-inducing repetition of "you get what you pay for," the lesser-considered Disadvantages corollary exists:  "you only endure what you agreed to get paid for enduring."
 
If I chose not to endure the problems related to it, I don't take the Disadvantage.  That doesn't mean I don't have the condition.
 
 
I can buy Flight, and I can have rocket boots, but I am _never_ compelled to have OAF.  My rocket boots are always with me, and cannot be taken away.  Why?  Because I did not accept the points for the potential problems that I can _choose_ to accept and endure.
 
I can have a secret identity that never happens to cause me a problem.  Why?  Because I didn't accept the points for the _Disadvantage_.  I have a secret identity; I do not have the potential problems associated with one.
 
 
One can build ten thousand variations of why this is valid-- my personal favorite was offered way back on the Red October boards:  Captain Homeless  (You can see where that's going).
 
 
 
It boils down to this:  It is neither just nor sensible to accept that a character absolutely cannot have any ability for which he did not pay, but absolutely must endure disadvantages for which-- for lack of a better term, the universe did not pay him.   
 
There are obvious exceptions:  campaign ground rules may include "As your GM, know that above all else, I love the soap-opera problems that arise from a DNPC finding a domino mask hanging from your breast pocket, and your unbridled angst as you stand helplessly in your cubicle, watching out the window while Dr. Bad Guy smashes the structural supports of the building across the street, and therefore am enforcing that all characters accept one of the ID-related disadvantages."   That's your prerogative, after all.  You can make any mandatory condition you want for your campaign.
 
But doing so doesn't make compulsory acceptance of any Disadvantage a part of the rules of the game.

Well there is no mechanical rules stopping this, but it is a potential abuse of the rules if all your players want this and it doesn't actually match their concept. Yes, it matches the concept of Shazam or the Hulk, but it doesn't match the concept of Superman or Batman or The Flash. 
So as the GM you have the right to not allow them to take it if it is abusing the system or just away to get extra points. 
 
I, personally, would handle it this way. If the campaign you are running is a 400 point normal super game, I'd say that the players only get to have one "400 pt form". It could be their normal character (like a Superman or Flash) but if they want to take multiform, then only the "superhero" form can have 400 points, the regular (non-super hero) has to be built on less points, maybe only 200 points for example. 
 
So their "non-super hero" normal character is built on 120 points + 80 points for mulitform, and then their super hero form has the full 400 points. Heck, your original player did say he wanted to be a "normal person" and then gain his ice powers when he changed, well a "Competent Normal Person" is 100 points according to the rules, so you are actually giving them an "extra" 20 points making them better then competent in their base form. 
 
Then see how many players still want to do this, and if they all still do, then maybe that can be a hook in your campaign. Somehow their multi-forms are what brings them together or are linked somehow. 
 
Otherwise tell them that since they are going to basically have 2, 400 point characters, then the badguys they are going to face are going to be based on them being very high powered super heroes, like 600 point heroes. 
 
 

And thank _you_, Sir (presumedly); that clears things up considerably.
 
(Also thank you for the Thirteen flashback.   )
 
So, to answer your question:  Is there a reason to not take Multiform if you have Secret ID?  (rephrased to show my understanding of the question)
 
No.  There is no reason not to take it if you have a Secret Identity.
 
However, Mallet hit on some good reasons / problems.
 
I can offer some others you might want your players to think about before they decided on their final builds:
 
Did they take the actual Secret Identity Disadvantage?  If so, remind them that means that having their powers is going to complicate their "normal" lives, and that their "normal lives" will complicate their ability to be costumed heroes at will.
 
As an example: 
 
Clark Kent is _always_ Superman, even when he's Clark Kent.  So he can be kicked back, grabbing lunch at a sidewalk cafe when a gunman runs in, grabs the cashbox, and runs back out.   Well, he can't change his clothes right here and now without someone noticing (complicating his dual life), but he _does_ have his powers.  It's possible he can drop under the table and use a quick blast of heat vision to weld the gunman's sneaker to the sidewalk, causing him to fall on his face and allowing "normal" Clark Kent (or anyone else nearby) to jump on and restrain him.
 
If you have the Disadvantage Secret Identity and your laser face powers are in your alternate form, all you're going to be able to do without making trouble for yourself is watch the thief run away.
 
Do your players have Instant Change?  Some GMs will require this if you want fast access to your alternate forms (again: some GMs.  Not all of them.  I've met a range of opinions on this over the years).  If you and your charges are trapped at the bottom of an elevator shaft and Captain Cable Cutter has sent the elevator careening down up you, you don't really have time to go through that whole bit from the Incredible Hulk TV show before you and your friends win a trip to the afterlife most relevant to your lifestyles.  It doesn't seem like much, but it's something for them to think on.  (As a side note, it's also something for the GM to think on: if a character pays for Instant Change, he needs a chance for that ability to really make the difference for him.  Just such a scenario gives him a chance to shine, and his player to feel great for having bought it.)
 
What conditions may affect access to that alternate form, and how often might the secret ID "form" of the character find himself in it?
 
Those are the things to consider.  And of course, if your players are building 800 pt characters, you'll need to show them what an 800pt villain can do.  No; I didn't say straight-up murder them; I wouldn't even let them build characters and start a game just to make this point: that's cruel and wasteful.   Talk to them in detail; let them understand that getting 800 points by 'gaming' Multiform means an 800pt character, with half the abilities locked up behind the "multiform disadvantage."   Yes:  Multiform, Multipower, etc-- are all labeled as Frameworks, but at their very heart, they are an all-encompassing disadvantage for the abilities bought through that framework (which is, on an unrelated but dear-to-me note, why "no magic spells in frameworks" is such a knife-in-the-eye to me against the spirit the game).  Considering the rebate, it's a _big_ disadvantage, too.  Let them get a feel for that, and see if that's still the game they want to play.  If it is-- and it's the kind of game you're willing to run-- well, they have been warned.
 
 

What I find interesting is how Billy Batson/Captain Marvel is shown over the years. In some it's Only in Heroic ID. It's Billy as an adult with much the same personality. If you look back at a lot of the original stuff Cap is a whole other person, at times Billy as an adult transported back. 
 
Would give me as a GM a headache...ok...do are you doing OHID or Multiform this time???
😡😠😠😼

I always saw Multiform as a character wide multipower

You also have to remember all the disadvantages of having Multi-form by the rules. Does the players have a base or a vehicle ? Then every form has to pay individually to use it. Did the hero take body damage ? Then if he switches back he could be in trouble if the original form lacks the body. Transforms will lock a character into the form, unable to change until the transform wears off. Disadvantages in one form and not in the other being worth less points because they can easily switch from one form to the other. 

Multiform is easy to abuse.  If the GM lets players get away with it, it's really easy to have a 350 or 400 pt "Billy Batson" as your main character, dump all your points into Multiform, then at the beginning of every game session you say "Shazam!" and fly around as an 1800 point monstrosity.  There is nothing in the rules to prevent this.  It's just up to the GM to say no.  Just because something is book legal doesn't mean you have to allow it.
 
In 4th edition, the main character was normally the one built on the most points.  As I recall, you could exceed the cost of the main character, but everything past the main character's point total cost 1 for 1 (you didn't get the 5 for 1 cost break).  So to become a 250 point character (which was the standard then), you'd pay 50 points for your Mutliform.  But to become a 275 point character, you'd pay 75 points for it.  They moved away from this in 5th edition.  But that requires the GM to keep a closer eye on the power.