Gideon

I am a little confused about how adjusting (specifically draining or suppressing) proportionately linked powers works. I have always been under the impression that if I have two linked powers, that if the greater power (the one being linked to) is drained you loose the ability to use a proprtionate amount of the lesser power. EX: I have light blast: 8d6 blast (total cost: 40 points), plus Sight Group Flash 4d6 (50 active points); Linked (-1/2) (total cost: 13 points). Total cost: 53 points. Whenever I use my blast, I may use up to, but no more than, the same number of dice of flash. If I choose to use only 6 dice of blast, I may only use 3 dice of flash. My blast (and only my blast) is drained 10 CP, leaving me with a 6d6 blast. Therefore even though my flash isn't actually drained, I can only use 3d6 due to the restrictions of linked. I was told in this thread that I am wrong. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/79787-Only-in-Hero-ID/page4 If my blast is drained, then the full strength of the power becomes the new adjusted value. Thus using the above example after being drained, if I use 6d6 of my blast, I can still use up to 10d6 of my flash. The reasoning is that this is now proportionate. 100% of my blast is now 6d6, however 100% of my flash is still 10d6. Looking in the books I have found the following: The information on 6E1 page 385 refers to a character choosing to use his power at "half strength". Adjustment powers (6E1 page 135) say that: "these powers temporarily alter a character's powers and/or characteristics by adding to, or subtracting from, the number of active points in them." Drain (6E1 195) specifically says: "A character with Drain can temporarily lower the value of one of an opponent's Characteristics or Powers." Neither the entry on adjustment powers, nor the entry on drain indicate whether the newly adjusted value of the power counts as the "full strength" of the power or not. The main reason for my question is based the ability to link to constant powers. EX: Compacted Mass: Shrinking (.15 m tall [about 6 inches], .5 kg mass, -8 Per Rolls to Perceive Character, +8 DCV, takes +24m KB), Costs End Only to Activate (+1/4) (30 Active points) (Total cost: 30 points) plus Density Increase (1,600 kg mass, +20 STR, -8m KB, + 4 PD/4 ED), Costs End Only to Activate (+1/4) (20 Active Points) Linked (Linked Jointly, greater power is constant) (-1/4) (Total cost: 16 points) Total cost: 46 points. When using this power for each "level" of shrinking that is activated a "level" of density increase is also activated. Thus if the character chooses to use only 2 "levels" of Shrinking he can only use 2 "levels" of Density Increase. So If I am correct about how linked works, if this character had all of his shrinking and density increase active, and his shrinking was drained (a growth gun for example), his density increase would be forced to drop proportionately with it. (Which I believe thematically makes sense) If the other version of how linked works is correct though, as long as the character's shrinking has not been drained to 0AP, he retains use of all of his Density Increase. Regardless of my opinions on thematic sense, which version is correct? Also, how would this effect powers that are linked using the 1/4 more limitation: Lesser power can only be used when character uses greater power at full value?

Re: Only in Hero ID His resistant protection is a large suit of armor that extrudes from his skin (similar to the characters from Guyver). The armor is his costume, and when it is on he gains approx. 7' in height and 450 lbs. in weight. The power also has Delayed Phase on it. I am not so sure about that GA. Under linked it says that if your powers are linked proportionately you can only use as much of the lesser power as you can use of the greater power. IE: You have a 10d6 Flash linked to a 10d6 Blast. If you use only 5d6 of the blast, you are only allowed to use up to 5d6 of the flash. I may have misinterpreted that part of the limitation, but I figured that if you have two powers that are linked and the base power is drained or suppressed the secondary power is effectively drained or suppressed along with it. If you drain my 10d6 blast for 20 points, I can only use 6d6 of it. Therefore even though my flash isn't actually suppressed, I can only use 6d6 due to the restrictions of linked. Unified power,as written, does not work here. (personally I don't think it works for 85% of the characters I've ever conceived of). My issue with the limitation as a whole is that it always works both ways. There is no reason why suppressing or draining his flight should effect his resistant protection.

Re: WHY CSL's This may sound like it isn't relevant, but I think it may be. In the campaign I am currently in my GM has said that its worth a -1/4 limitation for a CSL to not add to one of the categories (OCV, DCV, or DC).

Re: Only in Hero ID RAW linked doesn't work. At least not for my character. Believe me I wish it did. Linking a power to a constant power is 1/4 less limitation. (Resistant Protection is constant) Being able to activate an instant power during any phase that constant power it is linked to is active without needing to turn off the constant power is 1/4 less limitation. (Blast linked to resistant protection) His blast, flash, RKA, and most of his other powers cost more AP than his Resistant Protection, thus they would count as greater power linked to lesser power. 1/4 base limitation value His Blast, Flash, RKA and most of his other powers are in a framework. It is illegal (6E1 p 399) to link a framework or multiple slots in a framework to a single power that exists outside of said framework. It is also illegal to link multiple slots in the same framework. However, if I understand correctly people think that, even though they are essentially the same as linked or OIAID, these would be viable limitations: Adjusted as if linked to Resistant Protection Cannot be used if Resistant Protection is not active So would they be worth -1/4 each, or -1/4 as a single limitation?

Re: Only in Hero ID Well, several times previously in a campaign with this character, he was stopped from transforming. Each time the character had to make a choice: Give up my SID or don't turn my powers on. I know that technically my character could just say: "Screw it all, I don't need an SID", but he has family and friends and wouldn't want to put them in danger by revealing his hero ID. So, would this constitute "a way to stop me from transforming"? Threaten to reveal his SID?

Re: Only in Hero ID So, I guess the consensus here is: Being unable to use any of your powers while in your Secret Identity (on its own) is not limiting enough to warrant a -1/4 limitation. I know that multiform would work for my character instead of OIAID, but I would really rather not rebuild him that way. Can anyone think of any other way to build this?

Re: Character that keeps on going, even if in pieces... I would buy it as triggered duplication with altered duplicate. Unless the character wants to maul himself, he can't activate the power. Each "limb" gets to act of its own accord. If the "limb" is completely destroyed (IE: vaporized) he can't get it back. If on the other hand he can recombine, and re-grow his missing body parts, I would buy it as triggered summon with some custom limitations.

Re: Only in Hero ID

Re: Only in Hero ID Rebuilding the character has other issues related to this topic that I didn't want to get into fully, part of them is figured stats. In 5E he had 16 DEX, 3 SPD in normal ID and 21 DEX, 5 SPD in hero ID. The character's SPD cost him 16 points (4 points, plus 12 points) because of figuring. Now I'm looking at spending 46 points (if his SPD changes) or 50 if it doesn't. Right now anything I can use to save points helps.

Re: Only in Hero ID My problem with Multiform is that it says the second form has a different personality from the base character. For my character at least this is very much not the case.

Re: Only in Hero ID Maybe people can help me. I have a problem with a character build that seems to fit this thread. I am trying to rebuild a character for 6E. He is sort of like Guyver for those who know the reference. The character has alien nanites "living" in his body that grant him powers. However, he needs to turn said powers on or the nanites are dormant in his system. The result is that he transforms from a fairly normal (though well above average) human into something that resembles someone wearing power armor/ a robot. The nanites cover his body as armor and enhance his physiology in the process. While the armor is active he gains a boost to his physical abilities (including speed, important later), and an array of powers (blast, flash, flight, etc.). So here's the problem with the character. In order to be consistent with how characters are built, the GM has ruled that my character's build from 5E is no longer legal. I am in agreement with him, not only because the 6E book says the build no longer works. All you need to know is that all his enhanced stats and powers (including his multipower and elemental control) had a -1/4 limitation on them. In order for the character to function properly he needs something akin to OIAID, but I can't have his transformation take a full phase action, and I don't believe his SFX (willing the nanites to "activate") constitutes something with "difficulties or ways to prevent him from changing identities". The character as built in 5E has Extra Time: Delayed Phase on his armor, and nothing works unless his armor is fully active (this constitutes his Alternate Identity). This means that on phase 12, should he not be in his HID, he can hide or take cover as a half phase action and activate his powers as a half phase. Since this is all done on 12, there is no issue with Speed Crossover due to the character changing from a 3 speed to a 5 speed. He gets to act in his HID on phase 3. If, however his transformation takes a full phase, this scenario changes. He must take all of phase 12 to hide/ take cover. On phase 4, he activates his powers and his speed changes. He looses his action on phase 5 due to crossover, and finally gets to act in his HID on phase 8. Difficulties transforming make no sense for the character. Or at least I haven't been able to come up with any. And a relatively easy way to prevent the transformation is inconsistent with previous events, granted if I could come up with something I thought made sense I might just take it. So any suggestions?

Re: Icons - The Costume and Superpowers Store One question: You mentioned that if a character reveals his SID his powers get revoked. What happens if a character's SID is Forcibly revealed? Like, say a villain taking the mask off a hero, or the police taking the mask off of a villain.

Re: Death Touch

Re: Death Touch The only problem I possibly see with a body drain is that you're going to have to be really careful with how many dice it is. Depending on how you run things, and how high PCs defenses are (specifically Power Defense), this power could either be useless, or an instant PC death. Since the character is supposed to be a high powered campaign villain, point caps and such generally go out the window. However, you need to make sure how you want to handle this character's power level and possible PC deaths caused by her. In most of the games I play 14 body is about average for a PC, and not many characters have much power defense (if any at all). So a 4d6 body drain is significant (average is 14 on the dice, 7 "damage") dealing an average of half a character's body each hit. 6d6 is fairly devastating (average of 10 "damage", rounded in the favor of the defender), and 9d6 (average 16) will outright kill over about 75% of characters. So I would put her probably at 4d6 or 5d6 body drain. This means she kills (or comes very close to killing) a good 85% of normals. Up against the PCs she is tough, but survivable needing normally 2 or 3 shots to drop someone. Other people run different games though, so I think you just need to keep in mind how high defenses are when deciding how many dice she throws around.

Re: Death Touch We always round in favor of the defender, regardless of circumstance. So 21 would always be 10.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement? Thank you Chris. Thank you torchwolf. And (might sound surprising) thank you Bigbywolfe. I think I have figured out part of the problem I was having with the visualization. I am still having trouble figuring out how to represent where in a 4m area deliniated by a single 1 inch hex on a map each of up to 16 people are "standing". However I did figure out one of the problems I've been having. I think part of it is that i have never really played a wargame, or a game that used area templates. Please correct me if I am misinterpreting what you've been saying, but I think its that I should keep the hexes used on the map and AoE separate. See, having played Hero/ Champions for going on 14 years now, as well as D&D, I've always thought of AoE "conforming" to the shape of the spaces on the map. When you measure in hexes, you shape effects in hexes also. It was always area in hexes, but it isn't anymore. They did IMO change more than just terms, and scale as relates to points spent on powers (2 meters of movement vs 1 meter of movement). They changed how using a map with "spaces" works. My 4m AoE blast used to be strange star-esq shape conforming to the shape of the hexes it occupied. Now its a circle on a hex-map, not conforming to the shape of the spaces and can overlap parts of spaces, and such because you are no longer aiming for the center of a hex, you are aiming for a point in space that can be anywhere within a given hex (or even directly on a line). So again, thanks. Now I have an answer, I just need to decide what to do with it. PS: the question about fitting people into one hex, is a real world logistical question, and one not related to the game mechanics.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement? Not quite. I never actually said what it is I own and use for gaming. In fact I first mentioned using a map over 5 feet long. The truth of the matter is that in the past, if my gaming group ended up having a fight with such a big scale we would generally play it without a map. Now before we get into arguments, I said we always use the rules for turn mode, not always use a map. We also once or twice broke out the huge map (its actually larger than the table we were playing at), and used it, but characters and objects still ended up off the table and we needed to use markers to indicate distance and direction off the edge of the map (read as: edge of the table). In general these things worked, but not always well. In fact, one fight on the big map resulted in an expensive mini getting knocked off the edge of the table and shattering . And one of the fights we played mapless ended with a PC's death partially due to confusion over the GM's description of the area. Because of things like this, I was hoping to figure out a way to scale a map above 1:2, but of course, it seems I'm having problems figuring out the logistics of some of it. Which bothers me, because of just how severe a minority that puts me in. You are right, none of the stuff has changed mathmatically. Its just that for some reason when scale was tied down to hexes we never really thought of trying to scale a map up or down. It just never seemed to occur as an option. Now that it is, I would like to try using it. yes we have let more than one person occupy a hex, but that's with grabbing. Regardless of how many "hexes" you take up, if you are grabbed you effectively occupy the same space for rules mechanics. If a person is always assumed to take up a 1m space, then you can fit 2 people in a 2m space, but you can fit 16 people in a 4m space. Try this: take out a piece of hex paper, keeping each hex on the paper as 1h=1m, DRAW a hex that is 2m. You need to keep the middle of a pre-drawn hex as the middle of your new larger hex. The result is a hex that occupies half a hex more space in all directions. Now try it with a hex that is 4m. You end up with 13 full hexes and 6 half hexes (f you don't accidentally rotate the hex 90 degrees). My question becomes again: how do I represent this on a map at my table. We are not talking about people grabbing and wrestling with each other which means they are TRYING to occupy the same space. We are talking about somewhere between 2 and 16 people standing around, not necisarily coming into physical contact all being represented as occupying the same map space. Oh, and your right when it comes to AoE at 8m, it doesn't matter on a 1h=4m map you hit two hexes in all directions. But it does matter if you have a 1m or 2m radius it suddenly matters. If I have a 1m AoE attack we can simply assume that I can put it in the center of the 2m hex and effect any normal size person because no matter what you occupy at least half of the center hex. 2m AoE just occupies the whole space so it doesn't matter. With a 4m hex though it matters because I no longer fill the whole area. No matter where I put my 1m or 2m AoE radius blast inside the 4m hex, there is significant space I will miss. Space large enough to fit 12 people in fact. So how do I determine who I affect?

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement? Um, your opinion of the ridiculousness of this thread is meaningless to me. I have been trying to keep calm while posting, and refrain from insulting people. Even with your removal of your "outburst" I will say I am still not happy with the attitude you have been showing towards me. As far as your "solution", thats all nice and good. I probably will keep my games using hex maps with a 2m:1h scale. But if that was all there was to this topic for me I would have posted so and left it at that. I posted all of those questions because I want to understand why my group has been having issues with scaling, and other groups haven't. I am actually interested in getting actual answers to the questions I put forth (as opposed to your :face palm:). If it can't happen, then it can't happen. But you seem to believe that I am an unreasonable stick-in-the-mud person who can't accept differing opinions or suggestions. Thats just not true. If someone could give me answers I understand better, perhaps I might actually start using a varied scale for combat. Wow, isn't that an interesting prospect. Right now, I am simply having trouble with certain aspects of scaling combat. Sorry, but sometimes people have differing experiences with material and discussing it helps figure out shy

Re: Yet Again: Please Help Name My Character Thanks again guys. You were all a big help. Hey, if anyone is interested I'd be willing to post a copy of the character for people to peruse. I warn you though, he's built kinda strangely.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement? There is something else here that people seem to have a misconception about. Hexes were meant for combat. Not for anything else. And they were two meters across, because a person's wing-span is aproximately teh same as his height (say about 5'8"). If you convert that to metric its simply easier to round up to 2 meters (technically for this purpose, 1 meter is to small). Why does your wing-span matter? Because when in combat, people tend to take up about that much room when you factor in ducking/ dodging/ weaving/ and generally trying to not get yourself hit (AKA: Defensive Combat Value). Or perhaps it matters because your spider-man, and you like to stand crouched down with your legs in an almost full split, or your Wolverine and you like to slash at people on either side of you with your arms fully extended.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement? I'm sorry, but you missed my point entirely. I never said that one person must occupy a whole hex. I said: "how do you represent more than one person occupying a single hex when using a map with 1 inch hexes." Oh, and I arbitrarily used the term "hex" because I thought it would be easier to understand and less wordy that "map space". I don't care if your map uses squares/ pentagons/ hexagons/ nonagons/ triangles/ circles/ heptagrams/ trapezoids/ or irregular quadrilaterals. I was trying to make my arguments simpler to understand. Sorry.

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement? Because BoloOfEath is right. I have never played a wargame. So I am wondering how you determine a 60-degree turn when not using a hex map. Do you need a protractor? First off, just because the math hasn't changed doesn't mean its "a total non-issue". If it were, I wouldn't be discussing it with you and asking all these questions. Now, you may be right, scaling from 1 hex = 1m to 1 hex = 2m is easy and works well, but once you get larger I start to see problems. And the problems get worse if you (as people have already suggested) change the scale between combats/ encounters/ scenes/ adventures/ game sessions Lets say the scale is 1h =3m. 35m of Flight now allows me to move 11.6666667 (12) hexes as a full move or 6 hexes as ha half move. That’s not all that bad. Its about on par with your example. But what about if we push the scale up to 1h = 4m? You don’t see an issue, but I do. Perhaps if we look at a range of movement speeds you will understand my problem better. At 1h=1m: 34m: Full move 34m/ 34h, half move 17m/17h 35m: Full move 35m/ 35h, half move 17.5m rounds to 18m/ 18h 36m: Full move 36m/ 36h, half move 18m/ 18h 37m: Full move 37m/ 37h, half move 18.5m rounds to 19m/ 19h 38m: Full move 38m/ 38h, half move 19m/ 19h 39m: Full move 39m/ 39h, half move 19.5m rounds to 20m/ 20h 40m: Full move 40m/ 40h, half move 20m/ 20h When using a full move every meter of movement changes the distance traveled on a map by 1 hex, and when using a half move every 2 meters of movement changes the distance travels on a map by 1 hex. At 1h=4m 34m: Full move 34m/ 8.5h rounds to 9h, half move 17m/ 4.25h rounds to 4h 35m: Full move 35m/ 8.75h rounds to 9h, half move 17.5m rounds to 18m/ 4.5h rounds to 5h 36m: Full move 36m/ 9h, half move 18m/ 4.5h rounds to 5h 37m: Full move 37m/ 9.25h rounds to 9h, half move 18.5m rounds to 19m/ 4.75h rounds to 5h 38m: Full move 38m/ 9.5h rounds to 10h, half move 19m/ 4.75h rounds to 5h 39m: Full move 39m/ 9.75h rounds to 10h, half move 19.5m rounds to 20m/ 4h, 40m: Full move 40m/ 10h, half move 20m/ 5h, 41m: Full move 41m/ 10.25h rounds to 10h, half move 20.5m rounds to 21m/ 5.25h rounds to 5h 42m: Full move 42m/ 10.5h rounds to 11h, half move 21m/ 5.25h rounds to 5h A character’s half move in hexes doesn’t change until 43m of movement. Now, hen using a full move every 4 meters of movement changes the distance traveled on a map by 1 hex, and when using a half move every 8 meters of movement changes the distance travels on a map by 1 hex. I understand that scaling works that way (that’s math), but I have reasons why I don’t think it functions at a gaming table. While, yes that is an obvious solution, it is by no means a realistic solution. This is part of my reason for saying I don’t think it functions at a gaming table. On a 6’x4’ table you can easily fit a map that is 3’x3’ with room for 4-6 players and a GM. Megaplayboy already pointed out how this works for scaling. A 3’x3’ hex map is normally about 33x33 hexes (that’s 33mx33m at 1:1, or about 100’x100’). Now if I want to have a combat on at Giant Stadium I need to scale the map to 1:4 because the field is about 110mx49m. Now I say “I need to scale the map” because if I don’t scale the map it won’t fit on the table, and sorry but I think you’re ignoring this part of my argument. Unless I use Wick’s suggestion, which I think is to overcomplicated to implement well and shouldn’t be a necessity, I have no way to represent the fact that 4 or 5 people with different move speeds are all in the same hex (but different parts of said hex). Why? Because the hexes are 1 inch across So any suggestion of how I represent (on the map) the fact that there are multiple people in one hex? Maybe now you understand why I asked the questions of “how does scaling affect turn mode” and “how does it affect AOE”?

Re: Why doesn't 6e use hexes as a unit of measurement?

Re: Yet Again: Please Help Name My Character Sorry that this reply took so long. The game this character was meant for was put on hold for almost a month, so I procrastinated for a while. I did finally make a decision, though. And while its not something exactly suggested by anyone, it was inspired by what people posted. My radio-wave projector character is... Signal