Starlight

Re: Building Hero with Hero Could you please give a 5ER page reference for this? I thought I knew the rules pretty thoroughly but I cannot recall this at all. The NND advantage seems to specifically make the point that NND attacks only do Stun damage.

Re: WWYCD: Escape Stronghold! Countess Nicolai d'Estes - Rather foresightedly realised that if by some stroke of misfortune she was apprehended by those meddling hero types her likely destination would be Stronghold. Therefore she made sure that certain members of that establishment were securely under her undetectable mental control before she commenced her planned takeover of the city. Thus for the Countess her escape depends on the most rare of all villain abilities; sensible contingency planning.

Re: Defending the Earth: Giant Asteroid Starlight: Again? Been there. Done that. She flies out to the asteroid belt. Selects a nice chunky rock about ten tons and accelerates it to about 0.9c on an intercept course. Then she lets it go and bugs out pronto. This last part is important and should not be forgotten. Doctor Wyrd: Spends a little time with his spell books doing research. Comes the time when the giant asteroid is about to hit he casts the spell he's researched and turns the entire Earth desolid. (Yay for area of effect and megascale. Although this is slightly questionable by the rules as written our GM would give it a nod on the coolness value alone.)

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers Regarding the main point of the thread, Always On for body/size effecting powers such as Growth, Density Increase, and Shrinking. I do have a problem with the Always On limitation being discouraged for these powers. It's that I cannot see any reason why shrinking or growing, for example, should have different effects if done as a temporary change than if a permanent change. There's a power called Growth. It makes a character bigger. So if the character is bigger all the time why shouldn't you buy Growth with Always On? Having to build the exact same result using two different mechanisms - either simply Growth for temporary change or a number of powers and a disadvantage for a permanent change - strikes me as somewhat lacking in logic. This is an entirely different question than whether the game effects of Growth are sensible or not. I allow Always On for these powers in my house rules. I'd rather it was considered acceptable in RAW.

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers I can agree, calling small size a 0pt disadvantage is a reasonable solution. I was was looking at the size templates on p575 of 5ER when making my point. The disadvantages in the templates give points for the handicaps mentioned, so in essence the benefits of a small size are given away for free when using the disadvantages from those templates.

Re: Mirror Images w/ Teleport ... also, Teleport w/ Martial Arts

Re: Always on for size and/or density altering powers In the case of Growth and Density Increase both of these effects can be represented satisfactorily by buying suitable powers and then taking disadvantages. That approach also allows a more flexible result. On the other hand I'm perfectly willing as a GM to allow Always On for Growth and Density Increase if that gives a player the required result. That's simply 'cleaner' on the character sheet than a number of separate powers and disadvantages in my opinion. Shrinking is a different proposition. As well as the other mechanical effects of shrinking that can be represented by buying powers, there is one aspect that does not lend itself to being so represented in a clean and intuitive matter. I refer of course to the reduction in size of a character, which allows that character to enter and pass through apertures and confined spaces which a normal sized character cannot. This is a potentially very useful ability and, in line with the HERO philosophy, should have a points cost associated with it. Giving it away free as part of a 'Reduced Size' disadvantage does not work for me.

Re: Were these left out, or no? SUPER STICKY... Buy the desired power. Add the Area of Effect Radius modifier. Add enough Megascale to the area to cover the entire game world. Make it last with Zero End Continuous and Uncontrolled. Limit the power with - Only effects characters in a given area when power is used AND characters who subsequently come within a given distance of another character already effected. e.g. The Air Transmitted Deadly Flu: 3D6 Energy Blast No Normal Defence (defence is LS: Disease) Does Body Area of Effect Radius Zero Endurance Continuous Uncontrolled Megascale Area 1" = 100,000 Km Limitation: Only effects characters within 10" of targeted Hex AND Characters within 10" of characters already effected.

Re: Trusting Systems vs trusting GM Judgement Ah! Yes, archermoo, you are entirely correct. Somehow I completely missed seeing that post of Paragon's. I unreservedly withdraw my comment.

Re: Trusting Systems vs trusting GM Judgement

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th? Unfortunately I have no rep power, else I would certainly rep you for this comment. Well said. Hero's superhero roots gave the 'sweet spot' benchmark to that genre. Which leaves the heroic genre living in the cramped space under the original superhero benchmark. Heroic level supporters have legitimate grounds for their complaints of lack of granularity. Breaking the benchmark link between genres, unless the game world really does include both superhero and heroic player characters, would allow the heroic genre to find its own sweet spot.

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value An interesting idea, and with suitably adjusted costs might possibly be an improvement on the rules as written. However at this time you're wrong. The Flash Summary Table on p 176 of 5ER is split into two sections. The top section gives costs per D6. The lower section where extra senses are referred gives costs as Adders.

Re: So, what don't you like about HERO 5th? In agreement with previous posters: Damage Shield Instant Change Regeneration Also: Positive modifiers being prohibited for Change Environment (there are some cool power builds that would become much easier if this restriction was removed). Always On limitation not allowed for Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase (this just seems weird in my opinion since there's no particularly obvious reason for this restriction). Force Walls only stopping 1 stun per defence when an attack breaks through them (this can result in very illogical body/stun ratios getting through). These are all very easy to house rule around. The vast majority of the changes in 5th edition are improvements. When it comes to using Images to make light instead of Change Environment I think I can see the reasoning behind this. The Change Environment power affects an area. The environment only changes within that area. The Images power on the other hand affects everything in Line of Sight of the image. Strictly speaking, by the rules, light created by Change Environment cannot illuminate for the purpose of reading a newspaper that is outside the area of effect of the power, whereas light created by Images, being effective in Line of Sight, can.

Re: Trusting Systems vs trusting GM Judgement While the above is very true it might be possible to construct a game world where common sense discussions are not relevant. I'm thinking of something akin to the Matrix (the film) where the game world is a computer simulation and the characters are played within it. In such a world it's perfectly acceptable to have a rapier do damage to that iron bound door strictly according to the damage rolled versus the defence of the door without any concession to real world physics - because that is the way the simulated world is coded. Another alternative that can yield the same result might be a game world like Toontown (Who Framed Roger Rabbit) - set in an environment where normal everyday logic doesn't apply.

Re: Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value This sentence makes me wonder if you are using the total on the dice for the duration rather than the Body rolled? On average 12D6 of Flash will result in twelve (12) segments of flash duration rather than several turns.

Re: mind scan modifiers Having telepathic contact with FlunkyBoy will make no difference to the unfamiliar mind penalty when Mind Scanning for Bossman. You're reading into FlunkyBoy's memories at Ego+20. That is no different to having FlunkyBoy relating to you in exquisite detail all that he can remember of his association with Bossman. The same information is involved. Only the medium of communication is different. So the relevant passage of the rules is on p208 of 5ER: 'Unfamiliar minds include anyone with whom he has never had mental contact or lengthy physical association (no matter how well that person is described or how much the character knows about him) ' If either FlunkyBoy or Bossman were themselves mentalists and there was current or had been prior mental contact between them then that would be a different situation. But as stated, the unfamiliar mind penalty should stand.

Re: Multiform Oh dear. I may be misinterpreting your comments but I'm getting the impression, Ghost-Angel, that you have taken my post as a criticism either of the HERO system or the posters in this thread; or both. I assure you that is not the case. I adore the HERO system. I've never found any better system for building the kind of game I enjoy playing in and running. Neither do I have anything but respect for those who have contributed to this thread. What I intended to convey by my tongue-in-cheek remark about being blinded by competence was that those who have achieved mastery can find it very difficult to put themselves in the shoes of someone unskilled. What is simplicity to the master can be an impenetrable mystery to the novice. And since it seems so simple the master often finds it perplexing that the student cannot understand. Your comments express succinctly the reason why I love the HERO system. Further, I agree unreservedly that once you grasp the philosophy of HERO you can, in your words, 'utilize that potential to maximum effect to create, break, not break, fondle, carress, mangle, bend, and glorify our games to create anything and everything we want.'. I submit, however, the same cannot be said of a bunch of thirteen year old kids who have been given, bought, or more than likely downloaded via p2p, a copy of 5ER. Kids who have never played any RPG before or who have played only CRPG's or MMORPG's where the rules are hardcoded. And have no mentor to guide them in the use of the HERO system. If you expect those kids to exercise the same judgement that you would do - you must know much smarter and more mature kids than I. In the case outlined above I really don't find it that improbable that the situation outlined in my example might take place. And sadly, these days, it seems that the average attention span of a kid is measured in microseconds. A bad first experience with HERO can lose those kids as HERO players forever. Where as when they download a copy of D20 it's the rigidity of D20 compared to HERO that actually increases the chance of them achieving a playable first game. You correctly say 'Hero is a System. It is NOT a game. It tells you how to MAKE a game.'. I agree. That was the point I was trying, albeit clearly not with the clarity I desired, to make. That it is this very point which makes it wonderfully flexible for experienced GM's and players, and very hard to play without that experience. I might well come across in my posts as a neophyte. I'm not. I've been playing and running games since the very first little grey book. What I tried to do in my initial comments and example was show HERO through the eyes of a neophyte. To give a fresh perspective on the stuff you, and I, do take for granted.

Re: Multiform I think many of the posters in this thread are being blinded by their own competence. They would be welcome in any game I ran. They are each speaking with a voice of experience and an understanding of how to coax the very best from the HERO system. That, I believe, is why they are failing to see the potential issues raised by certain powers. Including the Multiform power. Cast your mind back. Way back. Many years in some cases I'm sure. Back to the very first time you opened up a rulebook with your friends and decided - this looks fun. Let's try it. So you read through the rules. In that early state of gaming innocence the rules are just that: RULES. You wouldn't know a house rule if it jumped up and bit you. Changing the 'rules as written' doesn't enter your head. Good GM judgement comes from intelligence moderated by experience. Back then you didn't have any experience to draw on. Let me try to give an example: (Assuming a 250+100 build) Player: Okay, so with this Multiform thingie I'll make a character Joe Normal and spend all 350pts on Multiform. That will give me a 1750pt alternative form. Novice GM: Huh? Give me the book... Oh, right. You're an idiot. You'll have to take 1500pts of disadvantages. Player: Yeah. I guess. Let me read it again... Okay, look here. It says I can pay to not have the disadvantages if you agree. I can spend 150pts for a 750pt alternative form and another, uh, 80pts to only have 100pts of disadvantages. Hey, it even leaves me 120pts to buy some of those skills. Novice GM: You sure? That seems awfully good. Player: It's here in the book. Page 211. Novice GM: Well... Okay I guess. If it's in the book. (... and the game is toast!) Shortly afterwards the game collapses amidst recriminations. 5ER is put up on a shelf to gather dust and they start playing D20. If you ask any of them later about HERO they'll tell you it's unplayable. Is this an extreme example? Yes it is. But not all that improbable. I still have my first Champions character sheet. And I have to admit it's nearly as blatant an example of power-gaming as shown above. Hey, I was young. I didn't know better. Nor did my buddy GM'ing our game. The 'with the game master's permission' on p 211 of 5ER should have been read as a warning sign. Isn't spotting that implicit hint asking more than can be expected of complete newbies reading through a tome the size of 5ER for the first time? Newbies who want to get finished making characters and PLAY the game for crying out aloud! A Stop sign next to the Multiform write-up might have given the novice GM cause to think twice before giving permission for that monstrous build. Now I'm going to digress a little. DocSamson and Ghost-Angel, among others, point out that pretty much the same can be said of virtually every power in the book. They are absolutely correct. I'm going to make a jump in the dark, not having any usability research figures to back me up, and state that this is why HERO is a niche game system. We glibly call it a gamer's toolkit: perhaps without thinking through the implications. HERO cannot be picked up and played from the book. That's very different to most game systems I have encountered. It means that you usually need experienced GM's to coax a good gaming experience out of the HERO system. You can only get experience by playing. Catch-22. Do the genre books provide a complete set of 'genre rules' that allow new groups to play a balanced fun game straight out of the book? I haven't bought any of the genre books so I don't know. If not maybe they should.

Re: Multiform

Re: Multiform There seems no need to explain Multiform to you, Corrugath. I'd say you have a complete and accurate grasp of it. Oh, and you are absolutely right in my opinion. As far as I can tell it is indeed horribly broken and open to abuse.

Re: Is combat in HERO strategic? You are. Perhaps understandably however, in view of the fact you are not a native speaker of the English language. If words only had a single meaning then machine translation would be be simple and unambiguous. This is far from the case. The fact is that the meaning of a word depends on its content. The words 'larger scale' have distinct and very different meanings when applied to a map than when applied to a combat. A larger scale 'map' does cover a smaller area in the way you have stated. When referring to a combat though, a larger scale combat is one which covers a larger area and/or has a larger numbers of combatants. Same words. Vastly different meanings. Killer Shrike was specifically discussing combat. His usage was perfectly correct. If you can grasp the following you'll be a long way towards understanding the vagaries of the English language in this regard: 'Gaming a larger scale combat requires a smaller scale map'.

Re: Trusting Systems vs trusting GM Judgement

Re: Trusting Systems vs trusting GM Judgement You are not restricted to just a choice between no rules or covering every possible aspect of the game experience by rules. There's a middle ground. That middle ground is where every game that isn't entirely free-form resides. The only truly realistic model of the real world IS the real world. Every other model is limited in both scope and accuracy. If you want a set of rules that models as accurately as currently possible the real world there is a place to find them. Try any reasonable comprehensive University Library. I recommend starting in the Physics section. Six or seven years of study, undergraduate and doctorate, will give you a pretty good start towards applying that rule set. Alternatively you pick a rule set that hopefully combines moderate realism, consistency, clarity, and conciseness, and trust the game master to use (and also sometimes ignore) those rules to create a game world that is fun to play in. Good rules are a framework on which to build a game. They are not a straitjacket to confine and negate the imagination of the game master and players. If you cannot trust the game master you have then you need to look for another game master. If you cannot trust any game master then quite possibly you need to look for an alternative hobby. No feasible, usable, rule set can cover the diversity of role-playing experience. No feasible, usable, rule set can be strictly applied with no use of game master judgement - without at some stage, and probably very early on, shattering the 'willing suspension of disbelief' that makes a game come to life.

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage I have to disagree with this ruling. The interior of a rock is a safe place to be with Desolidification. That power allows a character to move into such a position by running or flight or swinging, etc. Teleport, being a movement power should be no different. The question of getting something for nothing really doesn't apply. The character is paying for Desolidification. At least 40 active points. That's probably quite a bit more than any Safe Blind Teleport advantage cost. The question that was raised of the special effect of the Desolidification, such as turning into smoke, not being consistent with being inside solid rock is also of highly questionable validity. Such special effects are almost invariably linked with a cannot pass through a solid barrier limitation. In which case the Desolification isn't going to work when the character teleports into the rock and she'll take the damage unless she also has Safe Blind Teleport.

Re: WWYCD: Dumb, Da-Dumb, Dumb, Dumb... Gemini: grins knowingly at Lorelei the next time they meet and tells her, "Great job. Keep it up."