RDU Neil

We made plenty of "Vir/Veer" jokes, last night. When the name was first mentioned, we said, "We're gonna meet a pudgy guy with feather hair?"

I wasn't as concerned with "realism" as much as "balance." In your concept of style and coolness... The ninja casual incoming attacks because they are just that, casual "unimportant stylistically" attacks. But the shots or energy blast or punches of the villains or other PCs or whoever... so they are not casual... and therefore, the ninja shouldn't casually bat them aside. Your thought that the ninja is cool enough to always perceive an attack, will run up against the PC who built the "coolest sniper" in the world, who believes his shots should never miss and "no way the ninja saw it coming." You get the sytlistic version of the "Bang you're dead. Nuh uh!" argument. +5 DCV for just a few points easily puts this character into the 15 to 18 DCV slot. That is almost impossible to hit. Balance concerns would make me inclued a "must be perceived" comment to the power. Oh... and DCV means nothing vs. AoE. They just have to hit the hex of 3 DCV... so even if the PC has a 30DCV, if they are within the AoE, they get hit. You don't get a further limitation on DCV levels vs. AoE. They already don't work.

Thanks all. I understand the pro-rate rule... just had read something on the board that implied it was tossed out. Wanted to clarify without reading all of 5th again. Also, I agree with Markus. HA is THE most unbalancing attack in the game. I never needed a "Damage Class" limit in my games, prior to HAs spreading around. Point cost kept things nice and balanced, in my experience. HA just allows you to ramp up damage to really high level, with really low points. Ugh. House Rule #1 in my game. You can't push HKAs or HAs. They are already unbalanced by adding with STR. That keeps them mildly in line. (Of course, all this stems from the simple fact... likely never to change... that STR is way undercosted at 1 for 1. It should be 2 for 1, and all these other issues would go away. Funny thing... the same problem exists in that other game, M&M, as well. STR and DEX are hugely undercosted for their value in that game, STR in particular, because it is the one way to break the PL limits on damage. You'd think they'd have learned from previous games, but nope.)

Assuming that the focus limitation carries "non-persistent" as part of it, then fine. I'd also wonder just how you would incorporate "Attack must be perceived" into this. As it stands... as long as the ninja has their sword in hand, even invisible sniper bullets have to hit a +5 DCV, which doesn't see right. A further -1/4 limitation, "Attack must be perceived" would be fine. I'm also assuming that you are playing some variation of "multiple attacks in a segment/phase/round" get pluses to hit. i.e. Five agents all attack at once. First one is base OCV... second one is OCV +1, third one is OCV +2, etc. That means that on the sixth attack, the "Sword DCV" is effectively countered... but that makes sense, as the ninja is deflecting multiple incoming attacks. I've got no problem with this.

It sucks even worse to be... or I guess... have been Scorpia in my campaign. She had a long, terrorist career. The last of Prof. Muerte's superthugs. In a small South American village without a name, after the defeat of her and the last of her agents. She was shackled to a tree stump and questioned. Agent Shirow... known as Gearhead... asked her why she did it. Why kill all those people... sew all the terror. She just smiled and said, "A lass has to be good at something." Gearhead shook his head... and then she added, "Besides... I liked it." Gearhead pulled his sidearm and said, "Then you don't deserve to live..." Cut away...pull back to wide angle shot of the village, heavy caliber report rings out. Startled birds rise from the deserted fields. Fade to black.

In the past, the rule was to "pro-rate" the damage added by STR as if it had a +1/2 advantage. Example: A 15 STR would not add a full d6 of AP Killing... but instead add 1/2d6K AP. 15 points being 10 STR with 1/2 advantage. I was just under the impression that the "pro-ration" concept was tossed with 5th ED... but I did see it casually mentioned in the Rules FAQ over something that had nothing to do with AP. Thanks, though.

I may have missed this, but I did a search on Armor Piercing and didn't see any thread specifically adressing this. Question: In 5th Ed, am I correct in understanding that, if you buy a Hand Killing Attack, and put AP on it. (Say 2d6k + AP for 45 Active points)... you get to add your STR (say 15 STR so add 1d6K to the attack) and get full AP on the total 3d6 attack... even though you didn't buy AP on your STR. Is this correct? If so, it makes things simple, but I find this very unbalancing. HKAs are already the most easily abusable attack out there, and giving any Power Advantage on the HKA to the STR automatically only seems to make it worse. Just my opinion, but I wondered if I was misinterpreting the rule. Thanks

Then again, Supes clearly has a vulnerability to the base attacks of magical creatures. Action Comics Annual #1 (Arthur Adams art) has Supes raked by the claws of a vampire. A 1d6k (mayby 2d6) and it cut him. Clearly his rPD was not effective vs. claws from a creature that is magical. What is the difference between the claws of a magical creature and the fist of a magical creature? In game terms, killing damage vs. normal damage. Supes seems to have enormous rPD/rED and probably some Damage Reduction (putting him at the "nigh invulnerable" level)... but the Damage resistance has "Not vs. magical attacks or magical creatures." Therefore, Thor or WW's fists don't do extra damage... nor would a shot from Mjolnir (as that is still normal damage, in my book) but Mjolnier is probably an extra 10d6 damage on top of Thor's STR... so it is a huge hit, as well. Oh... and Supes probably has Vulnerability: Magical Attacks, x2 Effect (not Stun or Body) to make Drains, etc., very effective on him, if magical.

Here's a link to the Aquila site, if you want to look at what the manufacturer is saying. http://aps.3av.com/photo4.html On the body armor issue... I just happen to have a copy of Anderson's 2000 New Jersey Criminal Code (don't ask) and they have a specific penal law. Section 2C:39-13 Unlawful Use of Body Vests which is "Use" or "Wear" of a body vest while engaged in "the commission of" or "attempt to commit" or "flight from" various standard crimes like murder, manslaughter, robbery, etc. is a third degree criminal offense. Again, no penalty to own it... but using it in the commission of a crime IS a crime. Ahhh... the things I learn, only because I play goofy role playing games.

Oh yeah. Can't believe I forgot that one. And the quote was... ... Tim to me (GM)... "So... how much C-4 CAN I safely use on my friends?" Only in a superhero game.

Haven't read the rest of the thread, but had to reply to this post. YES! I mean... let the player actually be EFFECTIVE! He's putting 40 pts. into defense. Let him be hard to hurt! Only if this player is a total munchkin, is this a problem. Any attack that has to have a +2 advantage has to be so low in inital active points it will likely bounce off of others defenses. Unless you let the player do EVERYTHING... high defenses AND high attack AND high speed AND high movement... then this should be fine.

Another quote that a friend reminded me of this weekend. "Boy... these bouncers are TOUGH!" Member of Road Kill after he failed to do more than piss off my friend's PC with an electrical zap. The PC, Onyx, was in his civies, on a date, at the bar Road Kill tried to rob.

Dunno... seems readily available to me. http://www.pointblankarmor.com/products/interceptor.asp

Found out about these this weekend. Alloy rounds, hollow point, no jacket. Very light weight, 117g vs. standard .45 ACP at 230g. These rounds are supposedly used by police, because they effectively penetrate windshields, but when fired into soft targets, though, they fragment into three pieces, travel 12 inches and stop. When fired, they had a significantly different signature than the ball ammo. The muzzle flash was extensive, but smoke was minimal. The recoil was slightly less. The paper target actually showed a difference. The "IQ" round made a noticably larger hole than the standard round. We wondered if the bullet was actually fragmenting/expanding with just simple paper contact? Anyone have more experience with this round? How would you translate something like this in a game? I'd tend to do something like "limited AP" One... my AP rules are as follows. Subtract amount of body rolled from non-hardened resistant defenses. Example. 6 body rolled, vs. armor of 5... armor is bypassed completely. 6 body rolled vs. armor of 12... bounce. 12-6 = 6... stopping the body. For these new rounds, I'd almost buy it as 1/2 AP. 2d6K, but only ONE of the dice is AP. Roll a 3 and a 4... the 3 being the AP die... and you get 7 body, 3 AP. We use this all the time (I also think this is a great way to simulate 7.62 or other HV rounds that aren't specifically AP in make (no teflon) but can blow through light armor.)

A powerful, flying brick... Tachyon... who had recently been mind controlled by the player charcter Locke (can't remember why... some small thing, actually) was asked how he feels. Tachyon blinks, and stammers, "Cats! I loved Cats! I'll see it again and again!" (Perfectly role played by Matt... who then broke into song with Rum Tum Tugger!) We fell about the room. Took 20 minutes to get back to the game, and it became the catch phrase. "How do you know Locke has been here?" Glazed looks all around, and everyone mutters, "Cats! I loved Cats! I'll see it again, and again!" ----------- One of the last "all nighters" we ever pulled... back in '93... group of eight or nine players, with two GMs switching off between two simultaneous battles going on in separate parts of the city. Jim has been asleed for a good half hour at this point, as it's like 4:30 am and we've been playing since 7:00 pm. There is a lull in the talking for a moment, and suddenly Jim's head snaps up from the table eyes still closed, drooling, face slack with sleep and gasps, "I'm so WIRED!" and then his head slams back down to the table... out like a light. We cried. ----------- During a big invasion of a VIPER base, the heavy hitters went to the lowest level to engage in battle with the big baddies. One hero, Vengeance, a master of sword and gun, stayed behind on the floor above, to distract and hold off all the agents. He spent his entire combat in or near the elevator shaft, throwing smoke bombs, shooting and beating up agents. He'd just taken one of their M-203s and launched several concussion grenades back down the hall, out of his smoke cloud. He stood there laughing, hearing the explosions and screams... when suddenly three grenades came "thunk, plunk, tink, rollllll" right back INTO his now fading smoke cloud. The troops had been afraid to fire into their own guys up to that point. Vengeance makes a mad dash for the open elevator shaft, makes a brilliant acrobatics roll, and swings up the ladder, just above the open door, so the explosion goes under him. Seconds pass... smoke clears, and I describe the remaining agents poking their heads up to look at the devastated hallway, littered with the bodies of their comrades, low fires burning... no sign of Vengeance. A couple of them mutter... "Man! Who WAS that guy?" when Vengeance (perfectly timed by Paul) calls out "Hey! Send more guys! I'm getting bored here!" The whole play group let out a cheer at that one, it was such a perfectly timed, in character line. Even though he didn't declare it as such... I made it a Presence Attack against the agents. Most ran... the others gave up. It was brilliant!

I definitely WAS going to use her as an updated Doc Sonic... but then I saw the actual updated picture, and figured I'd keep her as she was. I recently introduced the character as a "mystery woman" who was involved with a recent adventure in California. She didn't give her name... but I know who she'll be in my mind. I have an idea of introducing her over time, hoping the PCs will be interested in finding out more about her. We'll see if it works.

Storn, What you have suggested is not far off from the Hero rules. I agree that bleading from -1 to -10 (Dead, in my rules, no matter your starting body) is OFTEN too fast... but sometimes, not. Someone can suffocate on their own blood in a couple of minutes, easily. There is shock that can keep you alive, and shock meaning your heart just stops. I've always thought that the best way is to look at... ... the amount of body done... ... to what PART of the body. Again, we are talking heroic level, hit locations and such, here. I think that 5 body to the gut... even if you are still in the positive body... should be bleeding significantly (most of the time.) Where as 2 body to the arm... even if it puts you at -1 Body... should not really result in heavy bleeding (most of the time.) I think some simple rule like "take half or more of your original body in one shot, after defenses, you have a good chance of bleeding. Less chance if it is a leg or arm shot, more chance for stomach, vitals, chest, head shot. If you move, with a wound like this, you must make an Ego roll with minuses, AND you take a 1d6 stun to represent the pain. This would allow "crawl, scamper run... ow, ow, ow... collapse and gasp for breath" If you take lots of little body shots, you can be hurt, but are likely not to bleed out any time soon, and can move with just an Ego roll with minuses. Simple... except that you have to keep track of each wound, if they are big enough. I'm concerned with upping the Stun multiple, because I think Stun multiples are already too high with a flat 3. In heroic level, with the hit location chart, I think the stun multiples are fine. With a +1 Stun multiple in heroic, you'd see people going unconscious from a hit to the arm way too often. Seven body would equal 21 Stun in one shot (the body is halved, but stun multiple is calculated before that.) That is an average shot from 2d6K. Too high, IMO.

Re: +P Ammunition That makes sense. I guess my question is... why have a "standard" cartridge, if +p is so much better and can be fired from a standard 9mm pistol? Cost? Gun wear? Does a standard cartridge have some advantage that +p doesn't? Is +p all a marketing gimmick, and has no consistent benefit? Also... what is the intent of the increased velocity? Does it penetrate or blow through? Does it still transfer that force (MxV) to a higher degree? I know with some rounds, they are so fast, they just have blow through, rather than impact and stopping power. Does a steel cored 7.62 have a significantly different effect on an average adult male, than a non-jacketed 7.62? That kind of detailed look at the "average effect" of different ammunitions would be great. I just wonder if the differences are so minimal that you don't need to really address them in "game terms."

Re: Not to add more die rolls, but... Whoa... Paul posting on a gaming board. I think that's a sign of the apocalypse! Hey dude. Good points. Your post reflected a lot of what has been discussed here. First question: "How much detail do you want in a game?" It's a hard question to answer. In a Danger Int. game... I want more detail. I think, in those "realistic" type games, I DO want to say to a player, "Your character has suffered severe trauma to the pectoralis minor. He has heavy bleeding and an accumulation of fluid in the interstital space" That is part of the flavor of the game. For supers... no... it doesn't matter that much. (Small arms are 1.5d6 to 2.5d6, with AP or Inc. Stun or whatever if it makes sense.) As it is... I've always played that Black Talons or Hydroshock just up the DC by 1... as they are designed to mushroom more effectively and deliver their impact more efficiently. What is the intent of +p or +p+ rounds? Penetration? Stopping power? Again, once I understand the "intent" of the ammunition, you can better translate that into game terms. As to Storn's point about body armor... and again, I'm talking heroic level... more "realistic" games here... it is just so easy for body armor to be effective in a game (especially Hero System) that it becomes a level of invulnerability. That is simply not true in the real world. Yeah... modern combat helmets can stop 7.62 ball flat. Sometimes, without significant impact transference. You don't see soldiers charging gun emplacements with carefree abandon, though. Body armor doesn't cover every spot. Body armor is heavy, uncomfortable and slows you down, etc. Even if only slightly... it's just that such slight nuances mean a lot in reality, but are impossible to simulate in games without bogging things down completely. So, yes... I agree that guns don't have the lethality level most people assume... but they do incapacitate and threaten serious bodily harm... taking people out of the fight. Stun often recovers so fast, that even if they are taken into negatives, it is only fifteen to twenty seconds and they are back up and moving. So... the question would be... how do I best simulate the PCs left lying on the battle field, incapacitated, bleeding out and screaming for a medic!

My concern with this, is that it just adds lots of die rolls and addition and subtraction in the middle of a game. I don't mind doing work outside of a game to make things balanced and accurate... but in a game... minimize the die rolls as much as possible, IMO. Gun fights should be fast and furious, not take six rolls to figure out. You can always add detail and accuracy by adding complexity... but the Hero System doesn't need any more complexity.

Holy Crap, Storn. That is awesome. I'd think James would plotz when he sees this. Fun, fun. I spend a day outside, gardening and raking, and get rewarded with great pictures for the game. Again... totally rockin', Storn.

Thanks, Arthur... I recognize the quote, now. I've only been to Colorado a couple times, to ski Winter Park. Yeah... it would be interesting to see how similar, or different, our gaming styles are. Actually, I love physics on a theoretical side... I just suck at math. Equations make my head hurt. Right now, I'm reading a short history of quantum theory and interconnectivity. I just skip the equations.

Yes! The "rendered ineffective" is a great point to make. It is what I'm talking about, above, with the concept of incapacitation. This is a very difficult concept to translate, as most games don't effectively simulate someone who has been shot... is not dying or unconcious, but still can't move or act very well, because of pain or ruptured tissue/muscles... etc. I've always erred on the side of having the guns do a slightly higher amount of average damage than perhaps is "realistic" to cover the fact the charcters don't have to suffer pain and incapacitation. It's a fudge... but a simple one to keep the game moving. And I agree... someone can get hit with five or six .223 rifle rounds, and live. Another dies after getting shot in the elbow with a .22 short. My question is... what is the average. I would assume that the above situations are actually statistically rare... but I don't know. Out of every 1000 people shot with .22 short... what was the average effect? I suspect most people cursed and yelled and called an ambulance... but were likely not dying or incapcitated... but I could be wrong. Just wondered what the experts out there have to say. (And yes... I think that Hero gun stats are pretty close... but I am one who has, in the past, suggested raising all the damage by 1 DC from the stats in say, the old Dark Champions.)

When Eric originally suggested the character to me, he was basing it on "Locke the Super Man" I've never seen the Anime... but from what I understand, the RDU Locke has gone in a very different direction than the anime Locke. (I'm really not a fan of allowing players to "ripoff" character whole heartedly. I challenge them to make something new out of an established concept, and I think Eric did, here.) Our Locke has died and been reborn a number of times... this last time in a truly different configuration. One the top three most power Psi's in the world. Very dangerous... and definitely heading toward cosmic.

See... I think most punches and kicks are "over estimated" in the damage they do. But that gets into a whole 'nother issue, because most kick/punches aren't "all out" because the fist or foot takes damage, too. Yeah... I could punch through dry wall, but I'm likely to break my hand doing it. I've never seen a game deal with "damage to the attacking fist" and I'm not sure I'd want a game that detailed, actually. I don't know what you are pondering, no... sorry... but while I do, in some ways, agree that modern gun damage is over rated, I also think that games fall short on "disabling/incapacitating" damage. Yeah... a single hit from a 9mm may very likely NOT kill you... may not even knock you out... but it can take you out of the fight because of pain and shock. How do you simulate that as simply as possible in a game? I think that tweaking gun damage up, slightly, to represent, however faultily, the incapacitating shock and pain of getting shot, is a fine "gaming" technique. In many ways, showing my lack of any physics or math background, I've always wanted to translate guns as to "average effect." A 9mm shot to the chest of an adult male has the effect, on average, of wounding him, knocking the wind out of him, and slowing forward movement, but it often does NOT kill him, stop forward momentum, or even knock him down. Yes? No? If that kind of information was available, you could translate that into game damage. Adult male has zero resistant defenses and 10 CON and 10 Body. So 9mm round to chest (average damage and stun) should do 4-7 body, and 12-21 Stun (x3 Stun multiple). That means a 1 and 1/2d6 K. Ok... that works for me. So for a KA to put a normal adult male into the "dying range" in one shot, it has to do 11 Body on average. That is a 3d6 KA. What caliber bullet would this reflect? A .45? A .44 or .357 magnum? Maybe a 5.56 or 7.62 bullet? I don't know. This is the information I'm trying to find out. How effective are modern guns and ammunition... so I can reflect that effectiveness (not necessarily joules or whatever... just average effectiveness against an average person) in the game. (Of course, the problem is, often the average damage is fine, but to get this, it puts the high end of damage, 18 body on 3d6, much too high for gun you are trying to represent. Oh well, nothing is perfect, but this is a fun mental exercise for me.) Thanks again for your information.