RDU Neil

I'd basically say those are version of "Brace" which puts them at 1/2 DCV, but doesn't cost a 1/2 action, so they can 1/2 move with sling or Sig-style brace in place, and fire, and knock off some range modifiers that way. Are you saying you'd make it a full OCV bonus? By optics, are you referring to sites/scopes... or situational optics like lighting, cover, fog-of-war stuff?

I totally agree with the easier Range mods that began with 4th Ed, I think... but only for supers and the highly cinematic games. It made it nice and simple and easy to implement in games where it didn't matter that much, and ridiculous shots were always being made, anyway. But for DI games... no way. Oh... I also don't give any built in OCV bonuses for a gun unless the character is Brace/Setting for firing.

re: Knife to a gun fight. Well... they stacked that against the gun, of course. Knife is already out and ready. Adam had a large pistol, still holstered, without a round chambered... so... eh... Even if Adam had the gun out, but not cocked, or holstered but chambered which is typical of law enforcement and personal carry, but someone who knows better can correct me... the gun will come out on top. Especially a standard carry Glock or Sig, instead of what looked like a clumsy Desert Eagle or some version of? What I feel is really most likely about that scenario is the "Who is cool under fire?" of the two. A charging opponent may focus you, or cause you to falter, or fire erratically, etc. A person with a knife has to be balls out, no hesitation while seeing that their opponent has a gun. I think the main issue is skill. Neither of these guys is super skilled with their weapon, but I'd argue that getting competent with a gun is way easier than with a knife. A good three to five inch blade, reverse grip, underhanded, controlled, is extremely lethal, but you have to work at it to be good at it. A blade hitting bone usually stops unless you are REALLY strong, and most attackers lose their grip, cut themselves, etc. You have to know how/when to slash vs. stab, target soft areas... and the psychology of being willing to stab someone up close and personal... that takes a very hard, desperate or crazy (or something of all three) to do it effectively, if at all. Guns are distant, removed, and it is easy to make yourself "move a little finger" while being mentally separated from the effects of the bullet downrange. Hell, as much as I appreciate a good knife, even if two skilled combatants were already face-to-face, both with weapons out (one knife, one pistol) at their side... while it is the best chance for the knife to do some bloody work, while the off hand tries to keep their gun hand at bay... it is just ask likely that the gun opponent can step back while using their off-hand to absorb the knife attack and just hip-shot three or four times in the same time the knife guy is trying to grapple and stab. At best I'd put that at a 50/50, with the odds just getting better for gun girl as the starting distance increases. RE: My favorite myth buster is the one where they debunk the Hollywood knockback of guns... barely even moving a man sized/weighted dummy three inches, and only with a Barrett .50 Cal into a steel plate that absorbed the entire impact.

The Flesh Failures... yowsa. I remember being totally creeped out by that name as a kid, 'cause this album was so popular, and this song in particular, back in the early 70's when I was a wee bairn.

Heh... I've actually considered something this extreme, but I do realize that game balance is an issue. One thing I should note is that I'm also reverting to old Danger International range mods. Those are way more punishing and appropriate for "realistic" gun combat. -1 per 3" (6 meters) after the first 6. Not doubling -1 7-12 meters, -2 12-18 meters, etc. Double the modifiers if autofire (or multiple attacks)... so at any kind of range, you start to miss with most of your rounds... which again, is pretty realistic. Heck... 6 meters, almost 20 feet, is pretty much handgun range , and beyond that you better be REALLY good. Hmmm... maybe it is worth going back to those old Autofire rules... +4 OCV if full auto, +2 for 5 round burst, etc. That would make things "gross" at close range, but quickly move into mostly missed shots as the distance increases. Man I loved DI back in the day. I'm looking at my, still in good condition, Dennis Loubet '84 cover as I type. Single best game book I've ever owned.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/mueller-subpoenas-trump-organization-russia-documents-report-180315190602187.html This keeps getting lost, while being the best chance to seriously disrupt der Fuhrer's megalomaniacal reign.

We are on a site devoted to playing a game. Isn't everything here inconsequential? I thought that was the point.

Before I start to try and print key pages of the PDF 6th ED books, is there a 6th ED GM screen anywhere (I didn't see it in the store) that has hit location and range modifiers and the OCV/DCV comparison chart, Mind Control tables, Presence Attack tables, etc? Thanks!

I don't know what made me queasier... the reference to Attack of the Clones, or the fact that Valerian was worse. And yes, the Soundtrack to Fifth Element is probably a Top 25 albums of the 90s. Did you see Fifth Element last year, when it returned for the 20th Anniversary? That was good times. Edit: Favorite line from a review during the 20th Anniversary release of Fifth Element: "...the sense that societies of the future might not really care who their heroes love, nor how they define themselves, provided they rock a high-necked leopard-print jumpsuit like it was designed for them at a genetic level..." Green. Super green!

You are kinder than I, sir. That movie was garbage. No plot, horrible script, pointless set-pieces, lacking humor, graceless... and they take the female lead from being kick-ass and self-reliant, and half-way through make her, literally, a damsel in dis-dress. 5th Element was ridiculous and cheesy, but hilarious throughout, with quite good dialogue and scripting. Valerian was... a boring mess. Even my wife, who is generally not very critical, was shaking her head with "This whole scene is pointless? Why is this even happening?" comments.

Just got home from a K.Flay concert. Really good, but damn my knees and back ache. #$&@#! I'm old.

These are all good, and I've used some of them before. 1. Resolve at half-action I like, though because of my unique initiative system (I hate the SPD chart with a passion) combat is already faster and it is more unlikely that actions overlap... but I think I'll focus on the next combat and see if this applicable. 2. Hipshot doesn't really apply with my initiative system, or at least would have minimum effect... I'll have to dig out 5th Ed and read Hurry. 3. At the levels of my game, -3 and 1/2 DCV are not too far off, better for some, worse for others, so I'll probably leave it as is. 4. Already definitely use Hit Locations to the max utility. 5. The "best of the best" characters in my campaign take PSLs vs. Hit Location in order to almost always be taking head shots (or whatever they want to hit). PSLs are probably too cheap for the effect, but eh... Good suggestions all, thanks!

Yeah... I'm not interested in retooling gun builds... but I also don't think every character should have to have complex skill builds to reflect a very basic standard of firearms use. I love Hero's combat maneuvers, as you can use them to make dynamic, interesting, flavorful combats without having to require "skill builds" or equipment lists. I think, based on comments here, that it is really a matter of tweaking the Multiple Attack combat maneuver based on weapon type... which is simple and specific to the Genre feel. Essentially, the result I want is "Guns allow faster/more attacks than other weapons (especially semi-automatic and select fire guns) per action, and firing more bullets is generally (not always, but generally) a tactically sound move, up to a point. (In fact, I'm pretty sure it requires MORE training, skill and discipline to effectively shoot "once" for effect, than firing multiple rounds.) It will require some simple "rule" level specifics (Gun only get a -1 per extra shot up to a certain amount per type of gun... say 2 shots for a revolver, 3 shots for a semi-automatic, 2 bursts for a 3-shot automatic, etc.) Pretty simple... but specific. Yes, it biases things in terms of "guns are better than other weapons", but that reflects the feel I'm going for. For HtH I may say Mutliple Attacks are only possible with short weapons or barehanded, at reduced STR. Again, not general house rules, but specific ones for a specific level of genre play.

It is not, and we don't, but the incessant internet fandom has created a 24 hour obsession cycle that has degenerated "content" the same way the 24 hour news cycle degenerated "news". If you are a bunch of struggling fan site managers and content providers, you need to keep up a steady stream of "DID YOU KNOW???" content that brings in traffic, get them click advertising, etc. When it comes to the subject of the fandome (in this case comics and movies) here is an article about how this obsession is actually ruining the actual fan enjoyment... from one of those sites that continues to post fan-theory and stupid minutia in order to get clicks. https://www.cbr.com/fan-theories-ruin-pop-culture/

I think this is a bigger convo than just inherent (and would love to have that conversation) but in this instance could you give an example of what you are talking about?

Yeah... there are a lot of tropes from classic Silver Age (and some Bronze) that weren't really logically thought through. Pretty simplistic, "What if Batman had Superman's powers????" kind of thing... dramatic cover, silly story, sells issues... and the concept sticks for years, until the overall readership stops buying into it, etc. Now the Speed Force, when it was introduced, Post Crisis, when Wally took over from dead Barry, it was one of those first attempts to say, "How exactly does he move so fast without... burning up his clothes, himself, etc, or experiencing massive wind resistance, or killing anyone he happens to be carrying at those speeds, etc." Whether you buy into that concept or not, that is the personal audience/reader choice, but it does establish a clear "external" power source where simply being physically faster than other humans just couldn't explain the near-cosmic levels of speed. You actually CAN unplug a DC speedster from their power source... so it is at least internally consistent, whether or not you buy it as a viewer. But ultimately... adjustment powers being mechanical instead of SFX based is, I think, the crux of the issue, and why inherent is probably, as Sean noted, not really necessary or appropriate for Hero. Instead, the weight is on the GM to make internally consistent SFX decisions about what works, and when. Like, if in a GM's world, all psionics works in the same way, and it is known that a particular subsonic tone disrupts a crucial function of a mentalist's brain and suppresses the power... then I'd buy it that rooms in the criminal justice system could be built with such audio devices, etc. But again, it requires thought and consistency in GM judgement to make it work, not just a simple game mechanic.

I should also add that I watched Wind River over the weekend... twice now. Amazing movie... brutal, unforgiving, unpleasant... but beautifully shot, well acted, suspenseful and emotionally powerful. (With two of the best "realistic" shoot-outs I've ever seen on film.) Worth a watch.

Yes... the Multiple Attack is the maneuver of choice for what I'm looking for. My main concern is that, RAW version, it is the same with any attack; you can punch multiple times, shoot multiple times, etc. In simulating a more "realistic" combat, firing a pistol multiple times is way easier and faster than throwing multiple punches, even doing a fast shiv/shiv/shiv attack, etc. Hero as a system doesn't differentiate "weapon speed" as far as I know... unless it is in some 6th Ed version of Dark Champions I don't have. That it should be easier to do with guns, and not at all possible with say, a bow and arrow (in realistic game... if you want Hawkeye craziness in your supers game, I'm all for that.) For HtH attacks, I feel it should be at significantly reduced strengths, and limited number of ... as I do have enough HtH experience to know that a flurry of attacks is significantly harder to do and each attack is reduced impact, etc. (Again... in supers... Spider-man flurry to your hearst content!) You notes on distances and expected grouping, active defensive shooting vs. target shooting... all in agreement here. if you have Netflix, Wind River is on it now. You don't have to watch the entire movie (it is really good if you do) but the scene you should watch starts around 41:01 on the time line. Over by 41:25. I'd love to get your opinion on it. Based on your responses and others... I think I'll need to set some house rules on use of Multiple Attack, based on the type of attack (again, for Heroic level only), in order to get the effect I'm looking for. Thanks all!

I totally understand that some would be better at it than others. Training and practice will make someone more accurate, likely to hit with more rounds/miss less, fire more, reload faster, etc. It is just that I feel that guns, semi-automatics and select-fire automatics on burst, should be able to "pull the trigger" more than once every combat action... by default. Again, limited knowledge and experience, but say a shotgun, with the recoil and pump action, is probably once per round and it would take an actual skill/training to fire twice or more. A revolver, I could see two, maybe three shots max due to kick and slower cycling to the next round. Semi-automatic pistol, five shots easy, though accuracy drops rapidly the more rounds you fire. 3 round burst fire, two pulls (two bursts) easily, maybe three. Yes, this makes guns much more dangerous than other weapons... but that is reality, which i want to simulate more often. Serious question, Surrealone... based on our experience... do you train single shots for combat firing, or multiple shots (again with a semi-automatic)? More shots are better than one, up to a point, where you are just firing wild... that middle ground of rapid, but controlled fire. What do you think?

That is an interesting way to buy this for sure... but again I'm not talking about a special ability, but a basic level of fire arm maneuver that would not reflect specialized training. (This also seems to be too much as a single attack, as the damage would be way more than multiple hits from 9mm rounds. Again, ok for crazy supers type of thing, but not particularly reflecting realistic weapon firing or damage.)

I'm actually pretty good with damage levels for guns in Hero... though (as I posted in another thread) I found the listed body armor to be way too good at soaking rifle rounds and such. Again, this is about reflecting relatively "normal" people who have no resistant defenses unless equipped with body armor (police, SWAT, military). I'm more concerned with figuring out gun firing, multiple shots, weapon speed, etc. Thank you though.

Actually, a great example of non-cinematic super cops is the new movie Wind River. Nothing super about it. Neophyte FBI agent investigating a murder. There are two amazing shootouts in it that are short, brutal and expend a ton of ammo in a few seconds. Also, watch any cop shooting video. Many times they are firing multiple rounds in just a few seconds (single combat round)... whether emptying their magazine or not. I'm not super knowledgeable, but I own guns and have taken them shooting (though not in a long while). Even I can raise, fire three shots, breath, fire three shots, breath, fire three shots, and at fifteen feet or so, hit at least half or more on human size target. I've also studied martial arts, and throwing a clean punch that doesn't break your wrist and really gets your body/strength behind it is not nearly as simple or easy... my experience, mind you.

Hard Sun... but yeah, looks good. edit: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6402362/

tl;dr Looking for alt rules/house rules that make guns and gun combat in Hero more realistically dangerous in comparison to HtH, muscle powered weapons and movement in the normal Hero rules. Well, no one appears to spend much time in the Dark Champs Genre board, but I'll try here to see if I can get any opinions. 1) Running a cinematic "real world" game... think Jason Bourne meets X-Files type of thing. 2) While characters might be a touch " over the top" in some ways, stats are within the Heroic level, combat should feel dangerous and not something to be taken lightly. 3) Martial arts and muscle powered weapons exist, but guns should be more likely, because of all the real world reasons... easier to use, faster, more efficient, more reliable, keeps you out of HtH range, etc. The problem is, Hero is based on more generic superhero combat, where every attack is equal. Punching someone, lightning blast, mental drain or shooting a gun are equivalent in the amount of time they take per action (phase). This is TOTALLY FINE FOR SUPERS. But more realistic level, classic Danger International or current Dark Champs heroic combat... it just doesn't feel right. An average person can walk across the room and haul back with a baseball bat and swing in the time another average person draws a pistol and shoots one time. That kind of thing just doesn't feel right, as two equal opponents in that scenario, most likely the pistol guy will get three to five rounds off before the other guy gets halfway across the room, let alone pull back and swing. A competent law enforcement type can empty a ten round clip from her Glock into a human target at twenty feet while closing at a steady walk. Assuming no fumbling, reload and fire again. I'm not talking John Wick or anything close to that level of crazy gun-fu... but just that there is a reason semi-automatic pistols are a way more popular sidearm than a revolver. They throw more rounds down field, faster, more accurately (for rapid fire), let alone being easier to reload, etc. Even the most basic trained shooting defense course tends to be "three shots, center mass... breath... repeat." Also, in gun fights, people fire multiple rounds (multiple pulls of the trigger) in seconds, clips expended, as part of standard procedure. I'm not talking panicked blazing away, but several controlled pulls of the trigger at a time... not because they are highly skilled, but because the gun is designed to allow (target fire fire fir, reaquire fire fire fire, etc.) How can we reflect this in Hero? Unfortunately, the base game allows identical character 1 to go from flat footed to 6 meters in the way in the time it takes identical character 2 to pull the trigger once. (Both are 1/2 moves.) That is ludicrous and eliminates one of the fundamental advantages of a firearm. Also, firing multiple rounds is either not allowed, or at HUGE minuses that single shots tend to be the case without significant skills/skill levels. And the ability to do this should not be a series of expensive Rapid Attack skill sets, or whatever, either. This isn't special training, but basic maneuvers. It probably takes way more skill to learn to throw an adequate (not great, adequate) punch, compared to firing three times center mass with a SigSauerP226, yet punching is a free combat maneuver and firing the gun requires 2 Pt Weapon Fam and I'll be at -4 per shot (if the old multiple attack rules still in effect). Guns are easier than punching, but we make it harder for characters. Again, I get why this is from a "supers... all attacks are equivalent" level... but what is the best way to create some basic "Heroic level" rules that better simulate gun combat (easer, faster to fire, and you tend to want to fire multiple rounds at a time). Are there any optional rules out there? Does anyone have any house rules they like? Thanks for any insights, especially from those of you out there who actually know guns and firing techniques.