assault

Re: Alternate Earth #24: Iron Age

I was just thinking about what I wrote about Assault.

Essentially, what I wrote suggested that he would become a truly Iron Age character - a politician!

Yeah. It works for me.

Especially since he would be the kind of politician that has his own militia.

Hmm....

Re: Alternate Earth #24: Iron Age

Assault wouldn't change at all - until "the war" started. Then he would get a lot more serious.

One thing he would pay more attention to would be building his team of support staff and allies.

Ironically, he would go from being one of the most cynical and "grey" Bronze Age characters to being one of the most idealistic and "heroic" Iron Agers. He might even become quite popular - a major faction leader.

This would come to an abrupt end sometime after other super-factions started overthrowing human governments. The problem would be that he would not only be opposed to such overthrows, but that he would start to actively and publicly support some of the target governments.

His faction would start getting the reputation of being the "Commie Mutant Traitor Party" or something of the sort.

And then they would get into a smackdown with Wanderer and his boys....

Re: When was the "Silver Age" in the CU?

DC were trying to do "relevant" stories in the early 70's. Sometimes they did them well, and sometimes laughably badly, but they were doing them.

The Green Arrow/Green Lantern "on the road" sequences were fairly well done. The "Supersons" stories about Batman and Superman's children and their generation gap problems with their parents were spectacularly bad. I, of course, love them, precisely for their badness.

I would still go with the early 70's start for the Bronze Age in comics terms.

I would go with Dr Destroyer's first appearance for the CU.

Having said that, Millenium City talks about Scarlet Shield dealing with "race riots" in Detroit during the CU "Silver Age". That's not a particularly "four colour" theme, and is a prime example of the kind of difficulty in mapping "four colour" superheroics onto the real world.

Oh well.

There's another interesting thing to consider: where could you set games in the 50s and 60s? It wouldn't be easy to try to reconstruct Detroit from Millenium City, so it's out. Vibora Bay would probably be OK, but it has the mystic emphasis which might clash with the Science Fiction elements in Silver Age material. I guess Hudson City would probably be the best bet amongst the published CU cities, which obviously runs against its "no superpowers" theme.

I guess it might be necessary to go to a real-world city like New York. Or, perhaps, grab something from some other game universe. Empire City from SAS sounds likely. But obviously we're not dealing with the "official" CU at this point.

Re: When was the "Silver Age" in the CU?

Historical points:

The Silver Age Flash first appeared in 1956.

Robin appeared in 1940. Batman's (and Robin's) code against killing appeared a little later.

Generally:

It probably doesn't really make sense to have "ages" within a particular universe. They never happened in the real world... Of course you can have phenomena like the "superhero gap", and a second generation of supers, but that's not quite the same.

But still, there are those references, and Silver Age Champions is on the "to do" list.

Four Colour games are, of course, possible in any setting, but there is more to the Silver Age than just that. It's a matter of time period and flavour, as well as an emphasis on Science Fiction themes. For example, the Golden Age Green Lantern's power was mystical. The Silver Age Green Lantern's power was scientific. The Golden Age Hawkman was a reincarnation of an Ancient Egyptian Prince, while the Silver Age Hawkman was a cop from another planet. And, of course, the Fantastic Four fought atomic monsters and B-movie aliens like the Skrulls.

And then there were mutants, Commies!, Hidden Lands, and so on...

Metaphysician suggested:

"AFAIK, Silver Age Champions stretches from the formation of the Fabulous Five until the first conquest attempt by Dr Destroyer ( when Kid Chameleon of the F5 died )."

This seems fair enough. I might add the "superhero gap" to it as a kind of precursor period, featuring monster hunters and "plain clothes" supers. This would provide a vague parallel to the pulpish "mystery man" period at the start of the Golden Age.

So, I would treat it as being roughly 1950-1975, with the first decade being very low-key.

Well, it works for me, anyway. Thanks to everyone for your input.

I've been looking through Champions Universe and Millenium City again, and noticed that there are references to the "Silver Age", "Bronze Age" and so on.

"Silver Age Champions" is supposedly going to be written in the indefinite future, (maybe, perhaps...). Presumably it would detail the CU's "Silver Age".

The question is: when was it? More precisely, when did it end? Or maybe that should be, less precisely, roughly when did it end?

For what it's worth, I can actually see a situation where the combination of all the other books are going to make Silver Age Champions seem a little redundant. A lot of relevant equipment would already be in either Golden Age Champions or Dark Champions. A bunch of relevant characters have already been published in Digital Hero or elsewhere. Hidden Lands would have already covered that particular Silver Age feature, while Galactic Champions has covered at least some aspects of the Science Fiction influences. There's the mutant stuff, of course, but that's not just, or even mainly Silver Age, these days.

All that seems really distinctive is the historical setting. OK, there's the Cold War aspect, which is interesting, and then there are the B-movies... Actually, it's probably the latter which really makes it interesting.

I guess we need some details on the Qularr and Selenites...

PS: I just had a look at the Hero Universe PDF from the Free Stuff. It describes Silver Age Champions as covering the period from 1965 to 1980. This seems a little odd, IMHO.

Re: DC Downunder

Wow another player in Brisbane ...... cool.

Toowoomba, actually.

Although I was living in Brisbane back when I started playing Champions in 1982.

Re: DC Downunder

It's in at least some shops, too. I got my copy last Thursday in Brisbane.

For what it's worth, at least a couple of shops had lots of Hero stuff in stock. Hopefully, that's because it's selling.

Which, I might add, might be worth thinking about for Hero Games. Champions Universe, in particular, was a bit dismissive of the presence of supers in Australia and New Zealand. That makes it a little difficult to set games here if a GM wants to follow the official CU closely. Since we appear to be a not-entirely-insignificant market, that's at least a minor problem.

Of course, individual GMs can and should ignore that in their campaigns, but that's not really the point.

As for what I am thinking of doing with DC - well, a DC:TAS game looks interesting. I might have it coexisting with a "Champions: TAS" game as well, with slightly more powerful characters in the latter. In other words, have both "animated Batman" and "animated Superman" hanging around.

Or something like that.

Re: DC / Marvel Generational Timelines

1976 - Kara Zor-L appears on earth and becomes Power Girl. I don't know how to reconcile this with the Kara Zor-El who becomes Supergirl yet.

In some of my attempts at similar things, I've said that Supergirl became Power Girl for more or less the same reason that Robin became Nightwing.

Re: what Champions products are you really looking foward to?

Golden Age Champions, Pulp Hero and Vibora Bay will all be must buys, but the one I am really hanging out for is Hidden Lands.

To put it simply, it looks like it's going to be a real bonus for those of us who don't live in North America.

I'm also a bit behind in buying stuff, so some of the things I am looking forward to are already out!

Re: Superhero Day!

3. Contests to see who can look the most like a certain hero or villain. Which of course will make things confusing if a villain decides to strike.

"If" a villain decides to strike?

Surely you mean "when"?

Surely the real tradition of Superhero Day is the epic battle with Foxbat and/or Pulsar.

Re: Tactical Question: How would your characters deal with these villians?

Well, the real overall answer to this problem is: think, not fight.

Unless the PCs are overwhelmingly tough, they will be stomped.

The best way to deal with these guys, or any other ubervillains, is to treat them like Galactus. You don't just fly up and zap him - you find a way to make him go away and bother someone else.

I'm a bit twitchy about Ocean - omnipotence is not a good power for a villain to have. I played in a game where the main villain was a precog and we couldn't find a way of getting around him. Everything we tried was predicted and countered.

Now, if we had had a decent scientist/gadgeteer, or if our team's wizard had been designed to do anything more useful than throwing fireballs (yawn...), we might have been able to fix him. But without that, we were totally dependent on the GM providing a suitable plot device. And he didn't. We were pooched.

So, if these guys are supposed to be what the campaign is about, you will have to provide the PCs a way of beating them. Either that, or hold the players' hands when they are designing their characters, to ensure that they build appropriate characters. Otherwise, the PCs are just going to get beaten, and the players are going to think your game sucks.

Of course, you don't have to make it easy for the PCs to find out how to beat the bad guys - just let them know/hope that there is an answer out there. Without it, they will just skip town.

PS (Edit): Champions is, of course, a roleplaying game, not a tactical simulation. The answer to all problems like these is, of course, to roleplay.

Re: Tactical Question: How would your characters deal with these villians?

Ocean is a bit of a worry, of course.

Generally speaking, my characters would approach things the Reed Richards way: find a loophole.

That is, get someone tougher than them to beat up on the bads, borrow the Ultimate Nullifier, or generally pull something out of a hat.

Going toe to toe with them would be a mistake.

My only character that is anywhere near their point totals is my current version of Assault, but he doesn't really have a team to back him up, so he would be toast in a fight. Then again, he has lots of friends.

Whizkid (Reed Richards meets Kid Flash) would be suitable for a "find a loophole" approach.

Marino, well, uhh, forget it. Unless he can convince the whole of Atlantis to declare war on them... Hmm...

Re: Death with Dignity : An examination of the Golden Age

A world where The Joker is allowed to go on killing sprees again and again and again and ... is well past my own threshold of disbelief. Human behavior simply does not work like that. I do not see a "hero" that permits repeated bouts of gleeful toture and mass murder as any sort of ideal to aspire to.

The thing with the Joker is that he is a recurring character who can't be killed off. Many other Batman villains have been explicitly killed off over the years. One or two of these have been retconned back to life, like the guy that had Dick Grayson's parents killed, but he got the chair the first time around.

Batman's CVK was one of the earliest ones, probably because he was originally one of the most violent characters. But even after it was introduced, his opponents would usually be punished for their crimes. Well, except for Catwoman.

The "Joker problem" built up over time. In part, of course, it's a problem of taking continuity seriously. It _is_ unrealistic that he would have escaped all those times. It is _not_ so unrealistic that he might have escaped (or been broken out) a couple of times.

Then there is the problem with the increasing violence of his crimes...

As far as Champions campaigns go, all this stuff shouldn't really be a problem. First of all, few games last for 60 years! Second, the PC's Hunteds are the only real recurring villains in a campaign. Everyone else can be locked up or rubbed out without particular drama. So can Hunteds too, of course, although they should technically be replaced or bought off.

So frankly, the GM just needs to keep the core villains (the Hunteds) plausible, and discard the others whenever appropriate. They can always be brought back if necessary. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's not overused.

I'm currently experimenting with building characters without Hunteds, with an eye towards keeping recurring villains scarce.

PS (Edit): OddHat's last post was posted while I was writing this one. I agree with him entirely.

Re: Foriegn Captain America's

Hmm . Sometimes you have to be careful creating "heros"in nations or ethnic groups that are not popular. I recently added a Palestinian super to my list. She is called "The Imp"(I don't know what that might be in Arabic' date=' so I used English). Her super power is the ability to transform anymaterial to any other material. I imagine her as not at all political, but protective of the ordinary Palistinian population and that she goes around doing things like transforming plastic explosive bombs into marzipan and such like ![/quote']

 

In fact, this character is an example of why you have to be careful. She's "not at all political", but "goes around doing things like transforming plastic explosive bombs into marzipan", that is, _is_ political.

Re: Hey Darren Watts!

I'm just starting Champions: Hidden Lands now' date=' though my first concentration is currently on Atlantis. I'll be knee-deep in Empyreans in about 2-3 weeks, though. dw[/quote']

 

I'm planning on making heavy use of Atlanteans and Empyreans in my games. They're a useful source of supers in areas that you wouldn't expect many to be present.

 

It mightn't be a bad idea for you to scatter small Atlantean settlements all over the place. That way GMs and players can use Atlantean characters no matter where their games are set.

 

My personal PC file currently includes a version of Assault who is at least part Empyrean, as well as Marino, the inevitable "Cheesy Silver Age Atlantean With A Silly Name" (and source of sheep jokes).

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

The current Catwoman series is an interesting case. She's a Robin Hood-style criminal, not a superhero, although the heroes (read: Batman) know she's kind of on their side.

She steals. She kills. She's an ex-prostitute. She wears a tight leather costume, and is often drawn in a distinctly T&A oriented manner. Her sidekick is a recovering junky and a lesbian. Blah blah blah.

Iron Age? Not really. At least, not how it tends to be used here. Because, underneath it all there is an idea that most people are essentially decent, even when they are in bad situations. There is a moral sense to it all - Selina cares for the people she defends.

It is, ultimately, a book about a heroine.

One who occasionally sleeps with Bruce Wayne.

Re: Ultimate Wonder Twins

All I know is' date=' Gleek would become a 6' tall intelligent blue gorilla if I had my druthers.[/quote']

 

Absolutely.

 

I was thinking about this kind of thing yesterday.

 

You could make the grown up versions of the younger/stupider Super Friends the current "World's Greatest Heroes".

 

In this role, Zann becomes a Water Elemental, Jayna a serious Metamorph, and Gleek grows up to his full stature and intelligence, probably losing his "baby tail" in the process.

 

To expand the team, Marvin and Wendy are now Batman-grade detectives and scientists. The original Wonder Dog is dead, but has been replaced.

 

If you were subtle, your players might not catch on immediately.

Re: Ultimate Wonder Twins

Zann's powers aren't necessarily useless as they are. He just needs a bit of practice, and some intelligence.

Potentially, he can become "invisible", pass through locked doors, and generally do the stealthy intruder thing. Give him a bit of training and he could become quite viable.

Hmm. Actually, he's just annoying enough to make it into _my_ Champions Universe. How would _you_ like it if he kicked your character's butt?

I wouldn't bother to Iron Age them up too much. Just taking them seriously would fix them a lot.

Re: [Meta] What would your character be?

Assault would shrug, and go to the pub. Even the Silver Age version drinks.

His Life Support means alcohol doesn't affect him.

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

First, I play Traveller, which allows you to blow stuff up with nukes, (as long as you don't get caught!). I've already got the lethal power game slot filled.

Second, I really, really like old Golden and Silver Age stuff. I mainly collect reprints.

Third, the "realistic" stuff I read is mainly street level stuff like Catwoman. I have also read stuff like Zenith and so on. The only characters in these books that would carry on like the Authority are bad guys. Or, at least, in Zenith's case, there was no attempt to whitewash the telepath who became British Prime Minister through using his powers.

Fourth, I _have_ actually thought about "what would I do if I had Superman's powers". Frankly, I have no desire to play this in a game, and even less so because I would end up in conflict with all the other players, and probably the GM.

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

If normal martial artists can do the same damage as bricks with higher spd and cvs then why have bricks?

 

Basic MA str 20, stike +2d6, martial weapon +2d6, MA DC +2d6

 

10d6 normal 12d6 with Off strike,

 

As most games have a DC limit this fairly hoses the Brick who at str 60 has no place to go, no boxing, no weapons, no MA dc, no str ( oh and seldom allowed dex 30 spd 6 ). Oh yes he can use haymaker......yeah

The Brick you have described is a Brick with no combat training, that is, a lousy fighter. They probably _should_ be able to be outfought by a Batman equivalent.

On the other hand, they can suck up damage in a way the martial artist can't. That's why I prefer playing them.

Re: I love The Ultimates

a quick list of thors powers

 

super strength and toughness

flight

huge energyblast and RKa with variable advantages

megascale teleport useable by up 50 ish others or area effect perhaps with extra weight

dimensional travel also with area effect and extra weight

wonking great hammer so huge HA an KHA

Which ones can't he use simultaneously? That is, which can be put in a multipower?

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

Whats come down here is that superheroes' date=' as a concept, have been proven to be a personal and irrealistic concept. Well, I've always known they are. But does it matter? Some things are just meant to be entertaining. Now, I'm talking about Champions, not Hero. You can use Hero to play a deep and philisophical game exploring the nature of Transhumanity and all that which would be a great deal of fun, but I don't think, IMO, you could be playing Champions at that point. Once you eliminate the concept of Superheroes (and, by connection Supervillians) you've kind of left Champions, as a game behind. That's fine, but it seems odd to get that deep into it on the Champions list. So I guess I am shallow and limited (stupid).[/quote']

 

This is why, ultimately, my games are all "Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen".

 

I can do philosophy. I have been known to write some pretty serious stuff in the Real World. I could, for example, write a pretty good essay about "Marxist Critiques of Post-Modernism" or something of the sort, if I felt the need.

 

If I wanted to, I could probably design a world where a bunch of supers attempted to follow Wanderer's ethical standards, and other supers attempted to stop them. In a truly "supers in the real world", my character would be very tempted to get into fights with all the other supers who would be attempting to extend the Pax Americana to North Korea, the Sudan, Iran, or where ever else, totally regardless of the governments of those countries. Or else I might just play a shiftless super-playboy, who becomes humanity's last hope when the other supers decide they have finished pretending to be bound by human morality...

 

But really, all of this isn't something to do regularly. In the end I still play Champions for relaxation and fun. If I want to muck about with politics, than I'll do real world politics. If I want to dream of wearing a cape and going "whoosh" when I fly past, I'll play Champions.

 

Oh, and for the record, the Marxist critique of Postmodernism boils down to "but the world is real, stupid! *Thwack!*"

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

Hmm... in my game world...

20 STR is common enough for non-powered superheroes. That's 4d6 damage.

Offensive Strike gives +4d6 damage. That's 8d6 so far.

The question then becomes how many extra Damage Classes are you willing to permit a character to buy? Personally, I'll go as far as 5 for a serious Master. 2-4 is more normal for a martial artist PC.

Going with 5 in this case gives us 13d6.

How about a weapon? Some kind of stick might allow a character to justify another 3d6, bringing us up to 16d6.

That's pretty extreme, but this character is still nominally a normal human, and bought according to the rules...

Let's push it a bit, and make them not _quite_ human, and go with 30 Str. And, let's face it, if they are the world's absolute best martial artist, they could even go with another couple of Damage Classes.

That gets us up to 20d6. Of course, this character has probably spent a few decades or centuries in a Lost City in the Himalayas, but he or she is a non-Chi oriented martial artist who can punch out a tank.

And if she wants to buy some Chi powers: are you going to argue?

The point of all this is that there can be a zone where the non-Chi characters and the Chi-powered ones can meaningfully compete.

In reality, I would never make Batman the world's greatest martial artist. He's not focussed enough on the single set of skills, and instead is prone to waste his time studying how to be a detective or a scientist.

Another aspect of it all is that Chi-powers are related to certain systems of mysticism. Without those mystical aspects of the study of martial arts, you are unlikely to be able to wield Chi-abilities.

This is a bit like saying that if you study the world without studying mysticism, you may be able to become the world's greatest scientist, but never a magician.

Of course in the latter case, if you study both, you end up as Victor Von Doom.

Re: Supernatural beings in the Champs Universe

Vampires and werewolves are quite useful opponents. They're extremely dangerous to non-powered supers, and have the magic thing going against Superman types.

They have another valuable quality from my perspective too: they aren't conventional superhumans.

Where possible, I prefer to avoid using supervillains in my scenarios. "Monsters" are a handy substitute. Demons are useful too, since you can use them as an excuse for giving normal humans temporary superpowers.

Obviously the same applies to zombies, dinosaurs, transformed animals and so on.

One mystic mastermind can create a lot of different threats.