jtelson

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

Bear in mind that all of what follows is for 5ER or before.

 

-Nothing- RAW will fairly create the effect my player is after in 5ER or before.

 

Each +5 STR is +1d6 ND and 2x more lifting, carrying, etc "feats of STR".

In addition, each 1 CP spent on STR buys 1 STR + 1/5 PD + 1/5 REC + 1/2 STUN= 1.9

Bought separately 1 CP=> 1 PD, 2 CP=> 1 REC, 1 CP=> 1 STUN

 

So 5d6 ND + 5 PD + 7 REC + 28 STUN

a= STR 25 => 15 CP

b= STR 10 => 17 CP on stats + 4 CP for +1 HTH DC= 21 CP

(I'm not including the +3 to +5 CP to buy a Strike.)

 

TBF to the player, I need a way to do things close to as efficiently as the STR pump. Certainly better than RAW.

 

15/21= .7143 or darn close, but still better, than what a "you get 4 points for every 3 you spend for taking this Limitation" bonus to CP spent will result in.

 

Result: the standard character concept of the Brick still comes out on top, but the other concept is not nearly as punished for wanting to play a particular concept of a HTH specialist who is not a Brick.

Fair is an interesting term here - I would tend to say that the advantage provided by the STR pump is what's not fair in this situation.

If your principle concern is points then set the cost at whatever you feel like.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

STR RAW gives you certain benefits. Prior to 6E, it was in fact one of the most point effective purchases in the game due to the "STR and CON pump" that made building Bricks so efficient over the years.

 

STR that does not allow you to actually -be- strong is obviously STR that is Limited.

 

My question at the start of this thread was how large or small should that Limitation be.

The (-1/4) that came back was in line with my original suspicions for 5ER or earlier, but I wanted some other opinions.

 

I can't discuss 6E STR responsibly yet because I do not have 6E yet.

 

Everything else that has been discussed in this thread has been OT. Interesting stuff, but OT. I'd be well within my rights and the rules of civility to simply refuse to discuss the OT stuff. But I'm trying to be nice.

 

Some folks are doing their best to make me sorry I ever asked their opinion.

...and some folks are doing their best to make me sorry I ever came on this board.

Applying a limit to a Primary Characteristic that does not also limit its Figured Characteristics - automatically removes the limited portion of the Primary's effect from the Figureds. So Limited Str doesn't work to create the efficiency you desire. Damage Classes, however, will create the effect you seem to be after.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

In the meantime I invite you and everyone else who jumped on this point to find me a single official HERO Games published attack that uses more than one kind of damage dice simultaneously. Just one.

Saphire pg 189 Champions Genre book - EB and Flash combination bolt?

Re: Normal Human

You do realize that the default 'cap of 20' on base stats from NCM is not actually a maximum right? It is just the point at which any increase beyond costs double. 30 is the actual 'hard cap' that would apply to most base stats of 'normal humans' like Captain America and Batman.

It may not be included in the description of NCM but it IS in the book. 20 is not a hard cap.

Is that the section that begins "For purposes of analyzing characters and their Characteristics, many HERO System campaigns use seven categories:" and includes the line "Each GM determines for his own campaign what numbers fall within these seven categories."?

So a suggestion IS in the book but no, a 'hard cap' of 30 is not.

Re: Normal Human

You do realize that the default 'cap of 20' on base stats from NCM is not actually a maximum right? It is just the point at which any increase beyond costs double. 30 is the actual 'hard cap' that would apply to most base stats of 'normal humans' like Captain America and Batman.

There is no actual 'hard cap' defined by the disadvantage in 4th, 5th or 5th Revised.

Re: Normal Human

As long as it is called Normal Characteristic Maximum, the implication is there is in the description since titles are part of what is being described.

 

I do not see a way around that.

Consider if you will Force Field and Energy Blast, neither requiring or implying Force or Energy.

Re: Normal Human

I see' date=' and have argued for, the merit of NCM as a Disadvantage. I just don't think it's really the best model to use and once the 6E model was presented have decided that is the prefered way of handling it.[/quote']

 

With the characteristic cost changes in 6th, I would wholeheartedly agree that the 6th model is superior.

Re: Normal Human

So what is the disadvantage? In tangible game terms' date=' it is the extra cost paid for the characteristics over the NCM limit. If you have none, the disadvantage should be worth nothing. If you have a 60 STR, you should get 40 points for NCM, since that's the extra points you spent. Just like the Elephant who Cannot Leap gets 9 points for that disadvantage, because 9 points was the value of his 9" of STR derived leaping.[/quote']

 

As I said earlier

 

This only holds water if points spent on characteristics provide advantage similar to points spent not on characteristics. In 5th points spent on characteristics provided advantage far superior to points spent not on characteristics so restricting the points spent on characteristics was an actual disadvantage. In 6th' date=' characteristics are more balanced to other point spends making it less clear if there is an additional advantage to purchasing characteristics.[/quote']

Re: Normal Human

To some it matters a great deal.

Sorry, Why rather than How does that matter to the idea of being disadvantaged?

Re: Normal Human

more explcitely then:

 

Psyc Lims do no alter how you spend points on a character.

NCM does.

 

That's altering a character in a completely different way. One only works once you get into play, the other works primarily before play ever starts - that makes it a MetaGame Disadvantage versus a Gameplay Disadvantage.

 

Here, let me use another example:

 

Disadvantage: Age 40+ - changes your Characteristic Block Maximums.

Social Limitation: Over 40. - will affect how people treat you in play, as "the old guy" but doesn't actually affect how you build your character.

 

Metagame vs Gameplay.

I would argue that Character Creation and Advancement is part of Gameplay, however, the real questions here are "Why is the distinction relevant?" and/or "How does that matter to the idea of being disadvantaged?"

Re: Normal Human

Unlike Multiform or Duplication' date=' I cannot think of a single character that could not be constructed in the system without NCM existing. Without it, I simply buy the Normal Characteristic stats my character would have, and spend my points in order areas. Exactly the same character, except I need another 20 points of disadvantages that actually mean something in play.[/quote']

 

Not a question of can you build it, it's a question of are you disadvantaged by building it that way.

Re: Normal Human

The difference is something like a PsychLim dictates what you won't do as much as what you will do. But it doesn't affect the Mechanics of your character in any way, it's purely Roleplaying.

 

NCM affects the Mechanics directly by changing costs.

 

The first is a Roleplaying aspect; the second is a Metagame Alteration.

Well, there are mechanics for overcoming Psych Limits in play but more to the point though this then isn't a "Is this disadvantagous" but "Is this what I think Disads Should Be" issue.

Re: Normal Human

So a 20 point flat disad makes up for all the variances in the value of characteristics versus other spending? Whether I would have otherwise had a 21 DEX and 5 SPD' date=' or a 75 STR, 40 CON, 35 DEX and 8 SPD? In my experience, NCM gets taken after the player looks at the character he has designed, and realizes he could easily remain within the NCM limits without sacrificing the character's concept.[/quote']

 

I don't know if a 20 point flat disad makes up for it - I do know that it is significantly disadvantageous - past that it becomes negotiation. As for your experience, it differs somewhat from mine.

 

As well' date=' a Characteristic with a Limitation (or other modifier) is a Power by the books, and NCM has no impact on the cost of powers. Defender is the classic example, but even STR that Costs END or enhanced abilities that only work if you don't cut your hair (a -0 limitation is still a modifier - Power instead of Characteristic) technically avoids the NCM limitations[/quote']

 

A phrase that I've seen knocking about that is particularly appropriate here. The System is not your Babysitter.

 

The rule allows for some reasonable builds but can be exploited; like Multiform or Duplication the GM needs to determine where the line is.

Re: Normal Human

And it changes costs of things in a way that you probably a) weren't going to purchase anyway (making it a Disadvantage that doesn't Disadvantage) or Only purchase such a limited for of that the extra points are less than the Disadvantage is worth.

A similar argument could be used to remove Psychological Limits from the system.

"I'm going to play my character as having a strong respect for life so he won't kill people, I can take Psych Limit: Code Against Killing"

"No, you were going to play it that way anyway so it's not really a disadvantage"

Re: Normal Human

I never said that, for one thing.

 

I've never been particularly for or against NCM as a Disadvantage. I like the new model better, but that's because I think it's more useful.

You are correct sir, and I apologize. What was your intent for saying the advantage was unique?

Re: Normal Human

NCM is the only Disad that altered how points could be spent. So it's not like any other Disad in the game.

Some physical limits alter how you would be able to spend points but even if they didn't uniqueness should not be a criteria for exclusion. It's a 'I don't want in in my game - so it shouldn't be in the rules' attitude.

Re: Normal Human

The fact that I didn't spend points on a ranged attack means I cannot attack at range' date=' which means I am disadvantaged. It doesn't get me a Disadvantage worth points. I got points by NOT spending them on ranged attacks. Being unable to fly is a disadvantage if I fall off a building, but I don't take a Disadvantage - I get to spend the points on something other than Flight. And NOT buying higher characteristics provides points to spend on something else - not a Disadvantage.[/quote']

 

This only holds water if points spent on characteristics provide advantage similar to points spent not on characteristics. In 5th points spent on characteristics provided advantage far superior to points spent not on characteristics so restricting the points spent on characteristics was an actual disadvantage. In 6th, characteristics are more balanced to other point spends making it less clear if there is an additional advantage to purchasing characteristics.

 

This does not address the idea of what disadvantages/complications should be - that's a design philosophy issue.

Re: HA, Ranged

Pretty much' date=' that's my take on it, yes.[/quote']

 

That's definitely an argument for chuck the prohibition - I'm ok with limiting things if there's a mechanical need, even if it requires some suspension of disbelief - but for a linguistic need - I don't think so. There's a reason I stopped playing Magic.

Re: HA, Ranged

It has to do with the mandatory "Hand Attack Only" Limitation.

 

If it were just worded as "STR For Damage Only" it'd make the whole dumb issue go away.

 

It should be perfectly legal to add Ranged to HA so you can throw blunt objects and weapons built with it.

Are you saying that it's disallowed because of the phrasing of the mandatory limitation?

Re: HA, Ranged

A character may not apply the Advantage Ranged to an HA (except possibly when building throwable HTH Combat weapons in Heroic campaigns).

That's frowned upon? Still sounds pretty forbidden to me.

The acceptable for HKAs part is the headscratcher for me; Adding Ranged (or the Ranged Based on Str advantage) to an HKA is a very inexpensive way to greatly increase utility and seems to violate the Must Buy More Expensive Power tenet (if that still exists) as you can build it as limited extra dice if you desire stronger characters to do additional damage.

Re: Pulparize It!

Isn't that just a straight description of the movie as is? Now replace the nanotechnology with atomic bombs' date=' use a drug to control the Baronesses mind, and have the bad guys be agents of a sinister Oriental mastermind...[/quote']

 

I would probably go with Husband or Father held hostage rather than drugs to control the Baroness - or maybe messmerism, but otherwise yeah that was my thought as well -I guess GI Joe is pretty darn pulp, hmmm

Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while...

I intend to use the new rules for Killing Attacks but it will likely be 8-12 months before I can give you any feedback as it will be for the arc after the next arc in my Heracles' Children Campaign (Rome). I had originally intended to use 6th for the Mythic China arc but I don't want to put off starting it any longer and even once I have the books it'll take a while to go through them.

Re: Halloween is coming

Zombies you say, Maybe quarantine the village? Trust your players to be willing to stay and help the normal folk?

Re: 6E Mess

I just did a quick scan and I didn't see much difference between Only in Hero ID from 5thRev and Only in Alternate ID in 6th.

5th rev page 302 - Must have difficulty changing forms, at least a full phase, other difficulties or ways to prevent.

What's the change that you're seeing?

Re: Order of the Stick

In this specific context' date='[/i'] what does the word "warlock" mean?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary would say it means "perjurer" or "forsworn" but that's probably not what is meant here.

In 3.5 the Warlock is an alternate base class from the Complete Arcane - they don't memorize spells but have invocations that are always available for use - I believe they have to be Chaotic or Evil (If it's not required it is suggested) their power coming from 'dark' places. The class dances across the line between a little broken and very broken (Though that might just be my impression based on the Warlock's I've seen played); V would consider it an insult as they, like all other arcane classes, would be far below the glory that is Wizardry.