Opal

Re: WHen did The Hero system first The first edition of GURPS credited Champions as one of it's inspirations.

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics Giving all characters Sight as a targetting sense enforces particular preconceptions and SFX, too. In a campaign where most characters are going to be human, or, for that matter, alive, having the default that the healthier they are, the longer they can run before becoming exhausted or the stronger they are the more resistant to physical damage they are, doesn't strike me as that unreasonable. Characters that deviate from that norm can take powers, disadvantages, adders, and whatnot to fit thier concept. But, sure, you could change that baseline. If you run a game where the expected default character is a psychic sponge from Jupiter, for instance, STR will not give you leaping distance (maybe it'll give you Clinging, instead)....

Re: WHen did The Hero system first The original Champions! came out in 1980 or 81, from 'Hero Games.' It was followed by other games using similar systems: Justice Inc and Espionage. Then they put out Fantasy Hero. By that time, Chaosium has labeled the common mechanics of RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu a "system" called "Basic Role Playing." Hero started refering to the common threads of thier games as the Hero System sometime after that. Arround the time GURPS came out, IIRC ('86?). (And this is all based on personal recollection). It wasn't until 4th Edition (the BBB came out in '89, I think) that Hero published a sepparate 'Hero System Rules Book,' that was decoupled from the Champions! game. But, even then, Champions! 4th ed was published /before/ the HSR. Ten or so years later, the 5th Edition (FRED) was published with Champions! published as a genre book, and you could finally say that the Hero System, itself, was the flagship Hero Games product.

Re: Multiform, OIHID or just sfx? Fair enough. So /just/ an EC for all powers wouldn't be apropriate (you could still put some in an EC, of course). I'm guessing secret ID won't be a major consideration then, either. So, unless there's another way to qualify for OIHID, I'd say EC for those powes that fit, 'visible' (silver form) for those that don't, and all powers have the same F/X. As long as you're using any power, you're in the silver form. When you have all your powers turned off, you're not.

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics Not what I said. I said that was it's origin. Hero System is an afterthought. "Champions!" came out in 1980. After it had been successful for a few years, several games using similar, but definitely not identical, systems were put out by Hero Games (Justice Inc, Epsionage!, Fantasy Hero, Star Hero). /Then/ the 'Hero System' was first coined as a term, then finally formalized as a core system. Though, it was only with the HSR that the core book was finally severed from the Champions! game. Which is what Killing Attacks /do/, they kill. Normal Attacks are much more efficient at KO'ing people without killing them, while still being able to damage objects about as well. STN-only attacks are perfectly efficient at KOing people mercifully, but can't harm objects. Each form of attack is highly desireable to certain characters, under certain circumstances.

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics Don't forget +3 with all DEX-based skills. I'd assume that you'd need one set of levels with PER and another with Skills. None of that (or the other stats you mentioned) 'breaks' the game, though. The game accepts 'discounts' for buying packages of related abilities, and has a model of increasing returns (very roughly "5 points doubles"). It's pervasive. Why people notice it one bit at a time get bent out of shape about it is beyond me. First it was figured characteristics, selling back all your figured stats from CON nets you a point! So you can only sell back one figured stat. Then it was EC. XOMG! ECs give FREE POINTs. So ECs got some added restrictions, and get hosed by adjustment powers. Now, aparently it's STR (and it's looking like it might be figured stats in general). What's next? Limmitations?

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics OK, that's a fair distinction. STR that you limitted to only affect lifting capacity would just be heavily (npi) limited. STR that did everything /except/ lifting capacity would face a much lower limitation.

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics That could be a reasonable aproach. Of course, if you're already planning on raising several secondary characteristics, you're still 'getting them back' at full price by buying up the apropriate primary stat. But systematic 'abuse' (by selling back the one most valueable figured stat - Stun, in the case of STR) would be further lessened. I'd hate to make KA the benchmark attack power. If it's too strong, make it more expensive, or make it less powerful. Hero was originally concieved for Champions! and, in that genre, high resistant defenses are common and killing is generally frowned upon. KAs really aren't that great, unless you're attracted to the STN Lotto. I 'nerf' KAs a bit by aplying the STN multiplier to the BOD that gets through - makes the 'bullet bouncing hero' very easy to build, and weakens KAs considerably. FWIW. Thanks. I don't like it, either, but thanks. What I can't get around is the costing of RKA and HKA. If they can have the same cost, then EB and HA should be able to have the same cost. If you halved the sell-back of figured stats, selling back all your figured stats from STR would net about the same as selling back the STN, now (both net you more than taking the 'no figured char' lim).

Re: Multiform, OIHID or just sfx? Is the transformation supposed to be persistent?

Re: Interceptor

Re: Multiform, OIHID or just sfx? Some of the things that Mr. Long did in FRED just make me scratch my head. Anyway, sure, go ahead and make them cost END, then. The whole transformation costs END. NBD.

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics I'm sure there are at least optional mechanics that call for CON rolls, and there are ego powers that can be 'based on CON,' so CON would let you resist - I don't know, a halucenogenic powder or something.

Re: Multiform, OIHID or just sfx? What? They /can/ be turned off.

Re: Interceptor

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics BTW, CON in the table say cost 1. Sounds fine to me, CON will be doing almost nothing under this variant, and while not being stunned is nice, you still get KO'd. Increasing the cost of END really doesn't make much sense to me. I can understand the desire to do way with 1/2 point characteristics, though. One obvious solution is to simply halve the END cost of everything. Actually, that was already done. Most powers that cost END used to cost 1 END/5 Apts. The exception was movement, which cost 1 END per 5" moved. Some genius didn't like that, and rather than base movement on Apts, cut the cost of everything else in half. So you'd just be going back to 3rd edition, in that sense, I suppose. You may also want to do away with ECs under this variant, since they provide a similar sort of cost savings.

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics And nothing else you put in the multipower is likely to have that limitation - certainly nothing in the usual Attack/Defense/movement triumvirate - making the point savings trivial (1pt in the example, above). No-range TK That just sounds like F/X You lost me with the slow/explosive thing....? EC w/TK (or HA) & FF.

Re: Interceptor

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics And it can transform STR damage to energy or stun-only rather than normal physical, and it can be placed in power frameworks, yes. It was neatly balanced with the BBB versions of EB, RKA & HKA, which is really all you needed to make it a worthwhile power. (though, as I understand it, some EB tricks are more broadly available in FRED). The 'bundled' nature of STR is something you'd want to consider in the broader context of power frameworks and character builds (as in this thread). Yes, you can always buy STR or levels, but buying it limitted or in a power framework is an issue. Not so with a power like HA. To illustrate, say you had a 30 STR character who wanted to push his damage potential up to the 12dc campaign limit, but didn't want martial arts or to be an outright brick, nor did he want to become an EP. He could buy a melee weapon, like a sword, or maybe even some non-focused KA, like a 'psychic energy blade' or something. 30 Apts gets him a 4d RKA (p or e) with his STR included. But, KAs aren't right for every campaign. For 20 Rpts he could get the FRED HA and smack people around about like a 60 STR brick. Or, as you point out, he could take some heavily-limitted STR, No Figured Characteristics, only to punch (-1/4), and get about the same effect for slightly less points (17). Either way, he's strictly doing normal-physical damage, and has no particular options from his 'power.' He couldn't use either to simulate some sort of melee based normal energy attack. If he wants a meciful no-BOD 'stun batton' or something, his STR can't add to it. He could also simply take some levels, or build some 5-point levels into it if it's focused. Say he takes the STR option and 4 3pt levels (for blocking & punching both). That's 29 points. Compared to the HA above, he's a point ahead, and 2 OCV better when blocking, not to mention having levels without having to give up damage. Strictly better. Now, say he wants that 2d HKA, too. No limitation, just a 2d HKA. That's 30 points for the reserve, 3 points for the HKA ultra, and 3 points for the variant HA ultra, 36 points. For the FRED HA, it's 35 points, because of the 1/2 limitation on one slot. For the 29-point limitted STR+levels option, OTOH, it's 47 points. The levels don't fit in the slot with the limitted STR so they're being bought straight up, and the point savings from the limitaitons on STR are tiny, since they only aply to the one slot. So, drop the levels and compare. All pretty comparable. The variant HA costs an extra point, but you do get a little something for that point. But, really, that's not a reason to add the variant power (or even, really, the FRED version). Where an HA variant really starts to add to the game is when you want to transform STR damage. If you don't want to slice your opponents up with a laser-sword, you can't stack your STR damage to an energy attack in Hero. With an HA that can be defined as STN-only or even simply as energy instead of physcial, you can. It also avoids the problem of NPAs aplying to STR. Instead of having a power that 'makes STR AP,' you'd simply buy an AP HA. That sort of thing.

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics That's a long-time controversey, and I don't like the solution, either. I'd like to know what the power does if I 'buy off' that limitation. I vocally advocated a 5pt HA back in the day, but it didn't fly with Mr. Long. Actually, I hunted up my old files to post on the Regen thread, might as well share it here: Hand-to-Hand (normal) Attack: A character with this Standard Power can increase the amount of normal damage he does in hand-to-hand combat. For 5 Character Points, the character can buy +1d6 HA. The HA must be defined as physical or energy, normal or stun-only. Strength adds directly to the damage of any type of HA just as it does with a hand-to- hand killing attack - no more than doubling the DCs of the attack. Alternately a small HA can be added directly to STR damage with any kind of striking maneuver as long as the HA is defined as doing normal physical damage with no advantages that would have to be extended to strength. Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. An HA can also be used to help Block an opponent's attack. The character is considered 'armed' and has a +1 OCV per 3d6 of HA employed. If the character does not want to be able to use his HA in these ways, he can take the -1/4 'Beam' limitation. Hand-to-Hand Attack cost: +1d6 HA per 5 Apts, minimum cost 10pts. The theory here is that it can be used to 'transform' STR damage, much like an HKA, and that helps justify the cost being the same as EB, just as HKA & RKA share the same cost/die. It also has some utility similar to EB (though, in FRED, so do a lot of other things - this was written under the BBB).

Re: Multiform, OIHID or just sfx? An alternative to complex linking like that is to just put the powers in an EC - they get a substantial discount, and they all share the same F/X. When you're using the EC you're in your 'silver form,' when you're not, you're not.

Re: Regeneration I'm sorry if I'm being redundant here, I've only read the first and last pages... I never liked Regeneration, it was never a sensibly priced power, 10 points of Regen let you heal back up in a relatively short time. 60 points wasn't really a lot better in the grand scheme of things. Taking a limitation to move it down the time chart really drove the point home. If you had minimum cost regen at 1/min, you healed faster than 60 points of regen at 1/hour. Madness! The FRED version isn't any better. Many years ago, mid 90s, I think it was, I came up with an alternative, and shared it with the world via the Red October BBS (): Regeneration: This special power allows a character to recover BOD more rapidly. Normally, BOD heals at a rate of 1 per point of Recovery each month. Each 5 pts of Regeneration moves that recovery rate one step up on the time chart - up to 35 pts which allows the character to heal his REC in BOD each turn (on post- segment-12). For 45 pts, the character can heal BOD every time he takes a recovery (including post-segment-12). Characters wishing to recover from wounds even faster should consider taking Damage Reduction with the special effect of instantly healing. Regeneration can go beyond merely speeding healing. For +10 pts the character's rate of Regeneration is unaffected by environmental factors or levels of exertion. For +15 pts, he does not bleed (doesn't lose BOD after being reduced to 0 BOD or suffer from the effects of the optional bleeding rules). The character can also regrow lost limbs and recover completely from the effects of Disabling wounds for +10 pts. Regeneration cost: 5pts per step on the time chart. Heal BOD on each Recovery for 45pts. Ignore environment/exertion for +10 pts. Does not bleed +15pts. Regrow limbs +10. Minimum cost 10pts. That was among many other things, some of which I'm no longer quite as proud of: Of course, this version of Regeneration builds upon the way REC already allows you to heal BOD (which may have already been proposed in this thread - it's a pretty obvious idea), so if that's changed much in FRED (IIRC, it hasn't, but I don't RC so often these days), it may need to be tweaked.

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics An old argument, in fact, that someone won when Mr. Long was writing FRED, aparently. I guess my opinion, when you come down to it, is that Hero got about as good as it could get in 4th. FRED isn't worse or anything, it just addresses some persistent issues by creating others - it's about as good, just in different ways. But we all have our pet peeves. I can't stand that TK and HA don't conform to 5pts/die, for instance. And I hate the lack of Regen in FRED almost as much as I hated the version of Regen in the BBB.

Re: That's Easy?? Show me how _you_ did it. Part deux! Someone remembers me.

Re: Discussion on costs of Characteristics They each cost you 60 points before you put them in the EC. Now they cost you less. You buy a bunch of figured characteristics they cost you points. You buy up STR, they now cost you less. It's the same sort of thing. You buy basically the same thing, in a different 'package,' and get a discount. If you want a concrete expample of more power for a negative cost, consider a character that buys 3 powers, one at 60 Apts, and two at 50. He buys up two of those powers to 60 so he can put them in an EC with the first. He's bought 20 active points of power for a cost of -40. All he's done is conform to a formula to get a discount. Buy your powers at the same Apt levels with the same F/X, get a discount. Buy your PD, REC and STN up as you buy up your STR, get a discount. Stats come in very specific packages and save you a lot, percentage wise. Power in frameworks come in more flexible packages, at a lower marginal discount. But, when you think about it the savings from frameworks can be as high or higher than the savings from STR. Take a typical brick in a typical 12d-limit campaign. He can buy his STR up to 60. He's saving 55 points on figured characteristics for spending 50 on STR - assuming, of course, he wants the +10pd, +10 REC and +25 STN. If he doesn't, he can either sell one of them back or take the 'no figured characteristics' limitation on his STR. A typical EP in the same game might have a 3 slot EC with a 12d EB, FF, & Flight. He's spending 120 points, and saving 60. Lower percentage, but more actual points saved. Both characters may also save figured characteristics points for CON and DEX, as well, of course. But the brick, unless the campaign limits change, is not going to be saving any more points for STR, while the EP might add another slot or two to his EC, saving another 30 points with each one.