nuada

DigitalGolem, Yes, there are times when any of the other forms currently not in control can "insist" that they get control. The worst of these is obviously the vengeance sprite, since having him come out during a dinner party would be BAD. However, under most circumstances, I can decide who is in control. The accidental change disad represents those rare occiasions when the GM disagrees with my choice of the 'in control' form (or when he just wants to screw with me. ). Even then, a roll is required for that to happen. For me to change forms normally, however, no roll is required -- I just change form and spend a phase to change and activate various powers. I think that the 'uncontrolled change' would remove that freedom from me. In that case, the GM would decide on every occiasion when the forms changed. I'd prefer not to give my GM quite that much room to ruin my life. I view this current build of the character as a mid-way stage of the three entities learning to live with eachother. Eventually, they will likely become a single form again, but with true cooperation among them. Character growth is good. Thanks for the post. Hope this explains things better.

How does one assign base form? Is that determined by which form actually buys the multiform power, or can it be one of the other forms? If I can just assign base form to the vengeance sprite, then this is easy. I just take 'reversion' on the multiform power, and that'll do it. I may make the 'reversion' a zero point modifier to the power, though, since it both benefits me and causes problems (since I'll be the psychotic enraged guy when I regenerate myself awake -- this is sometimes quite inappropriate). My idea for this power is that, when Zach or Gruk become knocked-out in combat, they cannot actively suppress the vengeance sprite any longer, and he comes out. While beneficial -- because he's really scary in a fight -- it is also disadvantageous, because he's a raving psychopath who wants to kill everything and hates everyone. Not truly berserk (he'd prefer to attack things that are fighting him, rather than prey on things that scream and run away), he'll still hurt friends or innocents if he has nothing else to hurt. And yes, it is a very difficult character to play and still maintain the whole 'hero' concept (which is very important to the human, Zach).

Depending on how you wrote the character up... if the weapon is built as a power framework, I'd throw this in there as a regular HTH attack with AOE radius on it. The damage from the HTH attack would represent the extra damage provided by the weapon, and would get STR bonuses. As for large characters, I believe there's already a 'reach' rule under growth powers (though I don't have my book with me). For every 3 or 4 levels of growth you get +1 reach. I would assume the growth power would give details on how that reach affects your attack range. It's going to be all about AOE: radius, though. My thought is that if you've already paid for enough growth to get additional reach, the 1" radius AOE would cover all the /extra/ reach provided by the weapon. So if you have +1 reach from growth, and buy an additional +1" radius AOE attack, you'd have an effective 2" radius AOE attack because of your natural reach (which you already paid for elsewhere). Hope this helps.

I guess my concern with 'accidental change' is that it /does/ benefit me, and it's technically more of an 'on-purpose change', because of the regen on the vengeance sprite. By doing this, I'm more likely to get back into a fight in which I've been knocked out. However, since the multiform is 171 points (character is 780 total points, in all forms), buying even a +1/4 trigger adder on it is quite pricey, and I'm not sure if such a trigger would need to be bought for both Zach (human character, who bought the multiform power) and Gruk (magma elemental), or just for Zach, since he's the one with that power...

Oh, believe me, I loaded up on the disads to represent that. Accidental Change: When Zach and Gruk really try to take control 11- (Common) Social Limitation: Killing is FUN! (Frequently; Severe) Psychological Limitation: Wants to be in control of body/form all the time (Common; Strong) Rivalry: Professional (Gruk and Zachary; Rival is As Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry; Rival is a Player Character) Psychological Limitation: Psychotic (Very Common; Total) Social Limitation: Natural State is Enraged (Very Frequently; Severe) and just for fun: Distinctive Features: Blurry and Menacing, Appearance seems to shift uncontrollably (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

Hi, I have a champions character who has 3 forms: one is a normal human, another is a magma elemental, and another is a vengeance sprite (think on of the Furies from Greek myth, except male and meaner). Each of these beings is possessing a single form, but have recently gained the ability to take over the form individually (multiform). All three of these forms have 'accidental change' in their disads, and the vengeance sprite is especially greedy/dominant, in that it takes both the human and the magma elemental's will to 'accidentally change' away from the vengeance sprite form (these changes can also be done voluntarily by me, the player, but there is some chance the other forms will not play nice. Anyway, given how dominant the vengeance sprite is, I would like to set up a trigger on the human and magma elemental such that, if either goes unconscious, the vengeance sprite takes over the body (though, since they share health, he'd still be unconscious, too). I'm not really sure how to build this. Is this just a special effect of my disads, and therefore free, or do I buy a naked advantage of 'trigger' somewhere? If so, is it built off of the multiform power (which only the human character paid for)? I obviously don't like this option since it would mean this trigger will cost about 50 points per character (since the multiform is a 171 point power -- we're cosmic level heroes). I don't have a problem paying a few points for this, since it is sort of a benefit (the vengeance sprite has a huge regen, so he won't stay out of the fight for long), with downsides (the vengeance sprite is always enraged, with all that entails). Suggestions welcome.

Could a possessing spirit who grants the host body a slew of powers (in an EC) be defined as an IIF? The theory here is, like nanites, or cyberware, a possessing spirit could, theoretically be removed from the host body, but it's not something that could be done during combat, and the act of doing so would be rather involved and complex. Thanks, Nuada

Does the image require concentration on the part of the character? If so, you could run this as a single multiform, with a special effect that the "real body" is off in a corner controlling the show. Of course, if both bodies are able to perform actions and interact with the world, then you clearly need to build this as duplication or summon. Ah, autonomy. Is there anything more expensive? I'm not fond of the idea of having to spend character points just for using a power. It seems wasteful to me. Unless the duplicate actually gets killed, I'm not sure it's reasonable to have to say it died just for the special effect that it shatters.

Thanks for the clarification. So, an unconscious person can make ego rolls to break mental commands, or even boot out a telepath? Are there rules for repeated attempts? If not, what's to stop the unconscious guy from just trying over and over again, since he has nothing better to do? Sorry, I'm at work and bookless, or I'd just look this up. But now I'm all curious.

this is kind of a scary topic, really. surprise is a very dangerous thing in this game, both in-combat and out-of-combat. I would say that PER is critical to whether or not someone notices the attack coming. I would further say that speed is the deciding factor in whether they can then do anything about it (like abort to a dodge, or whatever). To that end, I would propose that you make the contested roll of Acting or Sleight of Hand vs. the victim's PER. If the victim fails his PER roll, he is surprised out-of-combat (double stun and all that rot). If he makes his PER roll, his speed is then compared to his attacker's speed. If he is slower than his attacker, he is surprised in-combat. If faster, then things should play out as though it's the start of a normal fight, beginning at segment 12, as usual. Surprise should be very hard to get, especially against an observant foe who is faster than you. If you really want to surprise someone, it's better if they don't know you're there.

Wait, doesn't this contradict: ? While I personally prefer the idea that the unconscious are not open books to mentalists, both as a player and as a GM, I think the FREd is pretty clear about the fact that they /are/ open books. Ripe for the pillaging, as it were. Of course, unconscious people should still get their mental defense, right? Just no ECV.

EEWWWW!!! I don't think it even needs to hit you to make you sick. Just a description will do. Based on this, AOE: line seems to make a lot of sense. You might need to add on to that to say that the line doesn't have to be straight. The limitation 'only things beneath it' seems fine. I wouldn't worry about vertical hexes, since presumably, if it hits something that isn't on the ground, then the place below that thing is protected (sheltered) by the thing it hit. Thus, it's virtually single-planed as an attack.

right but if I recall correctly (and I probably don't, but I don't have my book with me), stone has a defense of 6 and concrete has a defense of 8. Yet, concrete is definitely not twice as tough as stone (especially depending on the stone, but assuming something generic like granite, this is patently untrue). The real-world correlations to defensive properties of objects just don't scale exponentially. Let's look at Mo's scale of hardness (dusting off the geology class notes from 15-ish years ago, so bear with me), where a finger nail is roughly 2.5 in hardness and quartz has a hardness of 7 and diamond has a hardness of 10. It is reasonable to say that a fingernail is only 1/4th as hard as a diamond, based on this scale. Similarly, a piece of quartz is 2 and a half times harder than a fingernail. Now, I would be hard pressed to assign a defensive value to a fingernail. Diamond, on the other hand, probably has a defense of something like 12 or 14. Please feel free to disagree with me if you like. However, if we assume a wall of diamond has a defense of 12, then a wall of fingernails (ewww) should have a defense of 8, by your math (where 2 defense is equal to double the hardness). Hopefully, the ridiculousness of a PD 8 fingernail is obvious. I would say that, as long as you're not trying to bring this into real-world examples, you're fine going with the 5 points to buy 1 DC is countered by 6 points to buy 2 def and 2 body. But if you're looking for the game's logical doubling point for hardness in real-world objects, I don't think you're going to find it.

can we get a description of what this power actually is? or the sfx of it, or whatever? Is this a raincloud of acid and doom, or a discontinent seagull? Is it tenser's floating punchbowl? That might help us define the power a little better.

Maybe I should add "rapid" to the list, or something. I'm not that worried. Even if this sense only gives me /one/ target to fight while I'm flashed or darkened, I'll be okay with it. And so far, the toughest villain we've faced (and will be facing again, no doubt), was a guy named iron mask, which should tip you off as to my confidence that this sense will track him just fine. Still, if someone took the time to spray trace elements of metals similar to those present in their bloodstream, I'd be willing to accept that I could no longer see them with this sense. Hopefully, I will be beating them senseless while they're unlimbering their aerosol cans, though.

Is this fun, though? As a GM, having the players KO a villain so they can pillage his thoughts and find out his plan seems a little non-heroic to me. Also, there's so much more fun to be had in an interrogation scene. And, it lets folks break out those skills they should have spent some points on. Also, remember that this sort of thing can cut both ways. If a player gets captured, and KO'ed, the villains can get all sorts of fun information out of them. Like the location of their base, their secret identity, the name and address of their dependants, a list of petty crimes they participated in as a minor, etc. just my $2.40 (adjusted for inflation)

It's a good thing this isn't true for heroes! My character would weigh about 368,640 pounds. Sheesh! No one would /ever/ teleport him around. Anyway, as to the (interesting) topic at hand, I don't know that defense has the same logarithmic scale as DC's. If you look at the defensive values of things like stone vs. steel vs. reinforced concrete, etc., there's no logical 'doubling' going on. That is to say, a 12 def, 10 body wall is not twice as strong as a 10 def, 10 body wall, despite the fact that an additional damage class would be required to affect it, on average. The doubling of power of DC's never really seemed to be all that universal to me. Just look at any of the threads about nuclear blasts vs. tank guns/armor and you'll see what I mean. The game numbers don't really scale to real world effects quite as neatly as the FREd would have us believe. In my opinion, anyway. [edited for subject/berb agreement]

since I started all this (wow, a hearty debate! cool!), I figured I should chime in a little. The power is gained from the elemental whose body my character is sharing (long-ish story). This power source could arguably be magical or arcane, but the GM of my game seems to be aiming elementals more at "forces of nature" rather than "summoned cute things that you store in capture balls". To that end, he has suggested that magnetic and gravity powers would confuse this sense to the point of uselessness. Furthermore, because it is so difficult to detect the iron and phosphorus levels in someone's blood, he's planning on assigning a penalty for me to detect organics with this power. So, basically, if I'm trying to use it to see a regular person, during a fight, while flashed or darkened, I will probably need to make a roll, at a penalty, every phase. He /has/ said that analyze isn't necessary, though discriminatory is. This would make it a 43 point power. As to the overall philosophy of this sort of thing, I think that powers like this, which have the potential to let me ignore a large class of powers (flashes and darknesses and invisibilities), should work similar to the way 'desolid' works: namely, you need to define one or more relatively common weaknesses. In this example, magnetics and gravity. Also, since my character has /no/ power defense (GM fiat), suppresses, drains, dispels, and the like are also valid ways to shut this down, and all of these powers are easily justified in a villain. Anyway, you'll note that, even in the first post, I was asking for some recommended vulnarabilities. I'm not looking to build the power to end all powers here. Just an additional sense that's different enough to be a defining element of my character. Gotta make those bricks stand out /somehow/. I mean, who /can't/ throw around small bridges, these days?

aw, but that takes all the fun out of it! You should really brutalize the players for having a single unreliable member! Make peer pressure determine your game turnout. "Man, you missed it! Last week, Voltron had to fight a Ro Beast with one arm tied behind his, oh, right, his NOTHING, because YOU WEREN'T THERE! We got our BUTT'S KICKED because of you!" To compensate, I'd make the "only if everyone else chips in" limitation fairly zesty, like -2. Also, remember that if any one member gets captured, the whole team is weakened. This makes for some really fun plots, in my opinion. But then, I've always had a bit of a cruel streak...

Re: FREd Neat! I feel so "hip" and "with it" now.

I would say they could split the points, and take the limitation "only when everyone else chips in", since, if one of the members doesn't show up to play, all those group points are useless. This would go for any example where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts (i.e. extra powers are gained by everyone joining together). I'd be a real pain about everyone participating, though. It sucks to be voltron if one of the lions is perpetually late (or a no-show). In the case of the players wanting to be the command crew of a large ship, I would recommend using the base rules for creating the starship. Again, points are shared, but there's a huge price break because it's a base. Hope this helps.

I thought you could buy desolid with the special effect that you weren't really desolid, but you were just immune to a particular thing. Because of this special effect, the thing you are immune to wouldn't pass through you, but would simply bounce off. I'm not sure why you would have to pay for 'invisible to touch' just to accomplish this. It shouldn't cost you /more/ points to make the power more realistic (especially when, in this case, it actually limits the power a bit). The same would go for 'invisible to sight'. You're buying a modifier that actually makes the power /less/ useful overall, purely to make it look or feel more like the power you imagined. Just define it as a special effect and have done. Desolid is expensive enough as it is. I won't go into the dangers of a GM allowing a broadly defined invulnerability power into a campaign, as I'm sure everyone here is well aware of them.

Thanks for the info! I didn't realize this would let me see through most invisibilities and images. I was mostly looking for a way to make myself tougher to flash or darknesses. That's pretty huge. By the way... this is clearly a really dumb question, but what does FREd stand for? Is it "Fifth Regular Edition" or something? Thanks again!

I'm looking to build a targetting sense that is based on the ability to detect metals. I don't want it in the sight group, but touch group is acceptable. My character is part Magma elemental (earth elemental that's a little more uppity), and can detect trace (or large) quantites of metal. This sense is so refined and detailed that he can use it to detect the trace metals in someone's blood, and target them in combat with it. One way I thought to build this was: Detect Metal (detect: large class of things; sense, range, targetting sense, increased arc 360 degree, microscopic x100, discriminating, analyze) (48 active points) I figure I need microscopic to detect such small amounts of things like Iron in someone's blood. Is there a way to build this that's a little more elegant? Also, if I went with the above power, what 'flash' or 'darkness' attacks would affect this power? Also, any suggestions for limitations on the above power would be welcome, as 48 points is PAINFUL, even in an EC. Thanks,

well, it's been said before: there's no such thing as an unkillable character. Just the same, there's no way to add an enhancement "no way to stop the regen", because there will always be a way. The simplest (though uncommon) would be to dispel it. Depending on how many points you want to blow on this, a single point of regen will generally give you that "unkillable" aspect, especially if you add "can regrow limbs" and "resurrection" on it. Another fun trick is to buy healing on a trigger (0 stun), with the continuous advantage. The healing can only heal up to the max amount of the dice bought with healing, but it's a quick way to automatically get your stun back, if you feel like spending the points on it. Of course, no sensible GM would allow this. There's also "desolid" on the trigger of "when unconscious", and the limitation "cannot pass through objects". The special effect is that your body just suddenly resists all further damage. I would personally add the limitation that it only works if you're unconscious, and once you regain consciousness, it stops working. The question I would ask is, if you're playing in a hero/champions game, why are you so worried about dying? Is your GM really that sadistic? If so, no matter how much healing and regen you take, he'll find a way anyway. The game is designed to make it unlikely that you will die, unless someone is going around slashing throats after the battle. Instead of blowing a hundred or more points on being unkillable, I would advise looking for some powers that might help you get out of situations where you might die. Or take the more courageous route and get some powers that will help your group, instead of just yourself. Just my opinion.