Increasing Target Visibility

[SableWyvern]

How to build a power that places an aura around a target (especially an invisible or desolidified one)?

 

My first thought was Images UAA, but I have a feeling that that is a little too potent for the low cost.

 

The most obvious alternative is a dispel or suppress, which should work reasonbly well with Invisibility, but not so much with desol, where only the visual component of desol should be affected.

 

Thoughts?

[Comic]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

It sounds like the intention is a cosmetic transform.. which I understand is Transform.

 

Optionally, drain/dispel/suppress Invisibility and Concealment.

 

Really optionally, Change Environment, Usable against Other?

[SableWyvern]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Yeah, I'm just concerned that a simple Transform is a very cheap ability if it renders invisible and desolidified targets effectively visible.

 

If the consensus is that this is not the case, then it certainly seems the simplest method of acheiving the desired effect.

[Gideon]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

How to build a power that places an aura around a target (especially an invisible or desolidified one)?

 

My first thought was Images UAA, but I have a feeling that that is a little too potent for the low cost.

 

The most obvious alternative is a dispel or suppress, which should work reasonbly well with Invisibility, but not so much with desol, where only the visual component of desol should be affected.

 

Thoughts?

 

Question:

 

What effect would a visible aura do to a desolid character? Desolid does not make a person invisible or less capable of being seen in any way. Also (as far as I understand desolid) you can still target the character with dispell, drain or suppress while desolid.

 

So I would simply by it as a dispell or suppress to invisibility.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

What's the end affect of the aura? Just to make them seen?

 

Suppress or Dispel on Invisibility.

Images on Desolidification.

 

simplest answers really.

[GAZZA]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

It could be argued that it would reveal no more than the hex of the target, and that you'd still have to try and locate them more precisely with a non-targetting sense to avoid the usual penalties. At most, I'd say that unless you define it as a Dispel or Suppress, then all you're doing is removing the need for that non-targetting roll (ie you'd still have 1/2 OCV to hit, and be 1/2 DCV at range/-1 DCV hand to hand against them). This is assuming of course that you don't have an appropriate targetting sense that does see through it.

 

Which reveals another means: you could build it as an enhanced sense that is UBO.

 

This question can actually be more generalised - what penalties, if any, do you have to target someone that is Invisible but who has just used some power that does not have Invisible Power Effects? It's more or less the same question as giving them an aura (except that they have, in effect, given themselves the aura).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

On the other hand - you need to see them to target them with anything to begin with.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Desolid does not make a person invisible or less capable of being seen in any way.

 

Good point. My mistake.

 

On the other hand - you need to see them to target them with anything to begin with.

 

Yep, the power itself will suffer all the usual problems with targeting invisible. I may make it AoE, which will make it a bit easier to use.

 

Which reveals another means: you could build it as an enhanced sense that is UBO.

 

I like that idea. Unfortunately, in this case, the fact that it circumvents the intial targeting problem makes it an inappropriate solution.

 

Anyway, it looks like Dispel or Supress is the way to go. Thanks.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Which reveals another means: you could build it as an enhanced sense that is UBO.

 

 

The limitation of an enhanced sense, UBO is that you have to be able to provide that to everyone who should be able to see the aura. Mechanically it is more of a stretch than creating an aura.

 

I'm not sure that cosmetic transform is good as I would expect my invisibility to affect anything intrinsically mine - if it was not a power I (or someone else) was actively using then I would expect that aura to become invisible too. I'm not sure what the relationship to BODY would be either.

 

Personally I like the idea of the invisibility drain with the special effect of placing an aura around the target. To make the power complete though I think I would have it in a multipower with cosmetic transform which would allow non-invisible characters to gain an aura as well. The switch between invisibility suppress and transform would be No Conscious Control (but essentially valueless as it doesn't limit the use of the power).

 

 

Doc

[SableWyvern]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

So, if I go with Suppress Invisibility, is -1/4 a fair limitation for "vs sight group invisibility only"?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

You might want to take a look at the Glitterdust conversion debate on this old Fantasy Hero thread:

 

Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell (1st - 2nd Lvl)

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1270968#post1270968

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1271214&postcount=9

21 Glitterdust [Conjuration] alternate: (Total: 109 Active Cost, 21 Real Cost) Suppress Invisibility 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (87 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 18) plus Sight Group Flash 3d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (22 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Linked (Suppress Invisibility; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) - END=[1 cc]

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1271245&postcount=15

a few more thoughts to consider...

 

Detect built as part of the Sight Group wouldn't actually work against Invisibility vs. Sight. It would actually need to be based on a sense group not affected by the Invisibility. edit.. also Detect by itself is not a Targeting sense.

 

Continuing Charge 1 Turn in HERO (12 seconds) seems a bit quick since I believe a Turn in DnD is a bit longer (1 minute?) unless that has also changed.

 

Here's another alternative to Detect:

 

40 I Can See Invisible People!: Spatial Awareness (Unusual Group), *Range, Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (81 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Invisibile targets (magical based Invisibility and/or Images) (-1) - END=0

 

* Note, the "Range" portion of Spatial Awareness is a part of that power that must be purchased when SpAw is not built as part of a normally 'ranged' sense group like sight or hearing. It is not the same as the Ranged Advantage.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1272416&postcount=35

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Are you trying to do Faerie Fire?

 

5 Faerie Fire: Sight Group Images, Usable As Attack (+1) (20 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), Rings Target in Glowing Light (-1), 1 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (-1)

 

 

From my Drow Package

 

The main problem is if you can't see them to target them in the first place. However you could add AoE Accurate to the build, make a Non-Targeting PER check, and have a go at it like that with pretty decent odds.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Are you trying to do Faerie Fire?

 

5 Faerie Fire: Sight Group Images, Usable As Attack (+1) (20 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), Rings Target in Glowing Light (-1), 1 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (-1)

 

 

From my Drow Package

 

The main problem is if you can't see them to target them in the first place. However you could add AoE Accurate to the build, make a Non-Targeting PER check, and have a go at it like that with pretty decent odds.

That's pretty much my initial idea exactly.

 

You seem to be the odd one out suggesting that it's a fair counter to invisibility, however.

[Comic]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Pro's and cons:

 

Pro: Does ruin Invisibility vs. Sight group.

 

Cons:

1. As Suppress/dispel/drain Invisibility - also has the effect of tagging visible people, so can be used to tell which one is the shapeshifter, and which duplicate hit you. Ruins disguise, concealment, shadowing, too.

 

This is why I suggested Transform, as opposed to Suppress. It depends how you intend to use it. If it is Suppress, it may need the +2 advantage 'all visibility-dependent powers/skills/effects'.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

That's pretty much my initial idea exactly.

 

You seem to be the odd one out suggesting that it's a fair counter to invisibility, however.

 

Well...it doesn't make them visible. It does make them locatable, which for purposes of targeting will generally be good enough assuming you just want to shoot them and not get too fancy.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Well...it doesn't make them visible. It does make them locatable' date=' which for purposes of targeting will generally be good enough assuming you just want to shoot them and not get too fancy.[/quote']

 

Well, according to Steve Long Images will not work that way. My example covered every possible angle I could think of and still got shot down.

 

see: Images AOE UAA vs. Invisibility question

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56618

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

{shrugs} Add that to the list of things I don't agree with Steve about. Particularly sans a justification for why it wouldnt work.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

{shrugs} Add that to the list of things I don't agree with Steve about. Particularly sans a justification for why it wouldnt work.

 

What if a character had Invisibility with the Inherent Advantage? It would be more difficult to bring down via Suppress but Images would be unaffected.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

What if a character had Invisibility with the Inherent Advantage? It would be more difficult to bring down via Suppress but Images would be unaffected.

 

...edge case what?

 

Anyway, the invis isnt being affected by limming them w/ Images -- just the inability to target them.

 

You could do the same thing w/ some versions of CE as well -- the classic see the invisible guy when they get rained on shtick. They're still invisible, you can't see them, but you can see an outline of where they are.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

...edge case what?

 

Anyway, the invis isnt being affected by limming them w/ Images -- just the inability to target them.

 

You could do the same thing w/ some versions of CE as well -- the classic see the invisible guy when they get rained on shtick. They're still invisible, you can't see them, but you can see an outline of where they are.

 

That sounds like more of a limitation of the Invisibility than an attribute of the rain or dust caused by the CE. Invisibility with a Hologram based sfx could conceivably be immune to such a tactic.

 

Btw, I probably wouldn't have a big issue with Images or CE being used this way for a one time use (like a brick throwing a car to get AOE) in a game. I wouldn't argue the point during play. I limit that behavior to this forum.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

That sounds like more of a limitation of the Invisibility than an attribute of the rain or dust caused by the CE. Invisibility with a Hologram based sfx could conceivably be immune to such a tactic.

 

Btw, I probably wouldn't have a big issue with Images or CE being used this way in a game. I wouldn't argue the point during play. I limit that behavior to this forum.

 

Well...consider...I don't have my book but as memory serves the Invis Power specifically does not work vs touch. The invisible person is solid, fills volume, has mass, and has tactility. There is a surface area involved and is still in relationship with the physical world. So, I don't see how SFX would allow a form of Invis using the actual Invis Power that was also effectively invisible to touch, does not appear to interact with the physical world, and allows the masking of the characters actual volume.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Easy--your super-sophisticated hologram generator creates a visual of the rain falling through the space occupied by your body, and hides the water running down/splashing off your body.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Easy--your super-sophisticated hologram generator creates a visual of the rain falling through the space occupied by your body' date=' and hides the water running down/splashing off your body.[/quote']

 

Exactly.

The Invisibility is not working vs. Touch. It is just hiding the visible effects of being touched by something other than another character.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

The only reason I really disagree with using Images:AoE is that you're targeting the area, not the invisible person.

 

Does the Area know to put light around an unperceivable object? How exactly? It would require a certain level of meta-gaming SFX to do so IMO.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

The only reason I really disagree with using Images:AoE is that you're targeting the area, not the invisible person.

 

Does the Area know to put light around an unperceivable object? How exactly? It would require a certain level of meta-gaming SFX to do so IMO.

In what essential way does that differ from any other AoE attack?