Increasing Target Visibility

[ghost-angel]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

In what essential way does that differ from any other AoE attack?

 

Other AoE attacks aren't seeking to downplay, negate or otherwise make ineffective another Power. If the Images don't care if you're a visible target or not it doesn't matter. This use of Images is specifically geared towards non-visible targets.

 

Basically, you're trying to use Images as a form of Suppression. Isn't one of the meta-rules of the game to not use one Power to perform the function of another Power?

[SableWyvern]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Basically, you're trying to use Images as a form of Suppression. Isn't one of the meta-rules of the game to not use one Power to perform the function of another Power?

 

Well, the intent is to create an aura around all targets in the AoE, regardless of their visibility. Making invisible targets detectable is one of the most obvious applications of this, but certainly not the only one.

 

Nevertheless, I see your point.

 

For the moment, I think I'm going to allow this in my game, and give a -1OCV to hit affected invisible targets, and -1DCV vs melee attacks from affected invisible targets.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Well, the intent is to create an aura around all targets in the AoE, regardless of their visibility. Making invisible targets detectable is one of the most obvious applications of this, but certainly not the only one.

 

Nevertheless, I see your point.

 

For the moment, I think I'm going to allow this in my game, and give a -1OCV to hit affected invisible targets, and -1DCV vs melee attacks from affected invisible targets.

 

Is an "Invisible Target" really a target for this particular application?

 

 

Personally - I do feel this use of Images is trying to be Suppression. I wouldn't allow it, it's the wrong mechanic for the desired effect.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Is an "Invisible Target" really a target for this particular application?

 

 

Personally - I do feel this use of Images is trying to be Suppression. I wouldn't allow it, it's the wrong mechanic for the desired effect.

As I said, I do see your point.

 

The main reason I'm taking a different stance to you is because the power, as originally envisioned, shouldn't only work on invisible targets, and I don't feel that, when starting with Suppression, that the cost and effort required to add further utility is commensurate with the return for that cost/effort.

 

As long as there are some experienced HERO gamers (such as Killer Shrike) who agree with this approach, I'm willing to give it a go. (Which, to be clear, isn't to say that I consider his opinions to be inherently superior to the many other experienced members on the forums, including yourself.)

 

I will keep an eye on the power and see how things go. I will be making it clear to my players going into the game that everything is subject to change as we gain a better understanding of the system and its interactions (and, similarly, the players will be free to make their own adjustments to their characters for the same reasons).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

As I said, I do see your point.

 

The main reason I'm taking a different stance to you is because the power, as originally envisioned, shouldn't only work on invisible targets, and I don't feel that, when starting with Suppression, that the cost and effort required to add further utility is commensurate with the return for that cost/effort.

 

As long as there are some experienced HERO gamers (such as Killer Shrike) who agree with this approach, I'm willing to give it a go. (Which, to be clear, isn't to say that I consider his opinions to be inherently superior to the many other experienced members on the forums, including yourself.)

 

I will keep an eye on the power and see how things go. I will be making it clear to my players going into the game that everything is subject to change as we gain a better understanding of the system and its interactions (and, similarly, the players will be free to make their own adjustments to their characters for the same reasons).

 

So what happens to a character whose Invisibility has the Inherent or Difficult to Dispel Advantages when he encounters your Image based suppress of Invisibility? The character paid for a defense that now doesn't apply.

 

Here's another alternative from the 3.5 conversion thread you might consider:

 

21 Glitterdust [Conjuration] alternate: (Total: 105 Active Cost, 21 Real Cost) Suppress Invisibility 7d6 (standard effect: 21 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (61 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 13) plus Sight Group Flash 3d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (22 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus Change Environment 2" radius, -5 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll (22 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) [Notes: The -5 is verses anyone attempting to "Hide" using Concealment or Images since they are now glowing (only if the Suppress worked).] - END=[1 cc]

 

Here's a cheaper version:

 

16 Glitterdust [Conjuration] alternate #2: (Total: 83 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Suppress Invisibility 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (52 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 11) plus Change Environment 2" radius, -3 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll (16 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus Sight Group Flash 2d6, Explosion (+1/2) (15 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) [Notes: The -3 is verses anyone attempting to "Hide" using Concealment or Images since they are now glowing (only if the Suppress worked).] - END=[1 cc]

 

and here's an easier to read format via the List feature of HD:

 

Glitterdust [Conjuration], all slots OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) - END=

11 1) Look! He's Glowing!: Suppress Invisibility 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (52 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4) - END=[1 cc]

3 2) Look! He's Glowing!: Change Environment 2" radius, -3 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll (16 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), Linked (Suppress; -1/2) [Notes: The -3 is verses anyone attempting to "Hide" using Concealment or Images since they are now glowing (only if the Suppress worked).] - END=[1 cc]

4 3) Poof!: Sight Group Flash 2d6, Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1 1/4) (22 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2) - END=[1]

[GAZZA]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

So what happens to a character whose Invisibility has the Inherent or Difficult to Dispel Advantages when he encounters your Image based suppress of Invisibility? The character paid for a defense that now doesn't apply.

Well, yes, but...

 

Consider the character who has bought a "No Sense Group" Targetting sense, and buys it Usable By Others At Range, with the special effect that the others see the invisible character outlined by glitterdust. That character has also bypassed Difficult To Dispel or Inherent as well.

 

Not quite the same thing, granted, but the point is that there is often more than one way to do things in Hero.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Well, yes, but...

 

Consider the character who has bought a "No Sense Group" Targetting sense, and buys it Usable By Others At Range, with the special effect that the others see the invisible character outlined by glitterdust. That character has also bypassed Difficult To Dispel or Inherent as well.

 

Not quite the same thing, granted, but the point is that there is often more than one way to do things in Hero.

 

Buying any sense besides what the Invisibility affects and putting Targeting is a legitimate way around Invisibility. If the player tells the GM he wants FULL Invisibility however and doesn't have the opportunity to include the "No Sense Group" and then later uses that loophole against the player it likely would piss off the player.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Also, what if the invisibility isn't purchased as HERO Invisibility?

 

Say a PC wizard cast a Mass Invisibility spell which is built using Images with -10 Perception modifiers built in.

 

Now the Faerie Fire option suggested by Killer Shrike would have to include counter PER mods to have a chance of success (it currently has none built in). The Suppress options would need to be modified to include 2 powers (Invisibility + Images).

[GAZZA]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Also, what if the invisibility isn't purchased as HERO Invisibility?

 

Say a PC wizard cast a Mass Invisibility spell which is built using Images with -10 Perception modifiers built in.

 

Now the Faerie Fire option suggested by Killer Shrike would have to include counter PER mods to have a chance of success (it currently has none built in). The Suppress options would need to be modified to include 2 powers (Invisibility + Images).

An arguably better way would be to just define the Suppress as working against "any special effect that makes you invisible", with the appropriate +1/4 advantage.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

So what happens to a character whose Invisibility has the Inherent or Difficult to Dispel Advantages

 

I should note that the aura is to be a PC's power, so this kind of objection is irrelevant in this specific circumstance. If the aura was designed to bypass a PC's invisibility, I would be more leery of allowing it.

[GAZZA]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Buying any sense besides what the Invisibility affects and putting Targeting is a legitimate way around Invisibility. If the player tells the GM he wants FULL Invisibility however and doesn't have the opportunity to include the "No Sense Group" and then later uses that loophole against the player it likely would piss off the player.

Yeah, agreed. I was kind of annoyed looking through the UNTIL Superpowers DB at all the no sense group custom senses they made - I'm old enough to remember when that sort of sense was rare...

[GAZZA]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

I should note that the aura is to be a PC's power' date=' so this kind of objection is irrelevant in this specific circumstance. If the aura was designed to bypass a PC's invisibility, I would be more leery of allowing it.[/quote']

Yeah, much easier just to buy a custom sense.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Also, what if the invisibility isn't purchased as HERO Invisibility?

 

Say a PC wizard cast a Mass Invisibility spell which is built using Images with -10 Perception modifiers built in.

 

Now the Faerie Fire option suggested by Killer Shrike would have to include counter PER mods to have a chance of success (it currently has none built in). The Suppress options would need to be modified to include 2 powers (Invisibility + Images).

 

And now we come to the most important part of setting up a game:

 

You should define how certain things work within the aspect of a game to keep consistency.

 

If your Invisiblity is: Invisible:Sight Group then I suggest you make your Glitterdust build as Images plus Suppress:InvisSightGroup.

 

If your Invisibility is Images:-10Perception then I suggest you build Glitterdust as Images:+10Perception

 

I see problems simply letting Images act as a Suppress.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

I would say that Images used to nullify Invisibility would allow you to see where the invisible guy is, but not to see what he's doing, or even to see him well enough to counter the OCV and DCV penalties involved with fighting an invisible guy. If you want to counter those penalties, buy the power as a Suppress.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

I would say that Images used to nullify Invisibility would allow you to see where the invisible guy is' date=' but not to see what he's doing, or even to see him well enough to counter the OCV and [b']DCV penalties[/b] involved with fighting an invisible guy. If you want to counter those penalties, buy the power as a Suppress.

 

It might not be obvious, but seeing where someone is can impact the chance to hit someone because of AOE attacks. Just knowing the general group of hexes that a target is in can make a huge difference regardless of DCV.

 

Detect is a viable way around Invisibility as long as it's based on a Sense Group not affected by the Invisibility. And if it's not associated on a group that is ranged or targeting by default those effects would need to be purchased as well.

 

examples vs. Sight Group Invisibility:

 

Legal

32 I See Invisible People!: Detect Invisibility A Class Of Things 11- (Mystic Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Range, Sense, Targeting

 

NOT Legal

15 I See Invisible People!: Detect Invisibility A Class Of Things 11- (Sight Group), Discriminatory, Analyze

 

The first example costs 17 more points because it is not part of the Sight Group.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

I wouldn't see that as an unreasonable use of the power. It's easier to hit an Invisible guy with an AoE attack, Images or no. It's also not too convenient to be shooting off fireballs at Inviso when he's fighting hand to hand with your homie Dragon Fist.

 

Pairing this use of Images up with an AoE attack is a pretty effective use of powers, but I don't see it as unbalancing, unless your whole campaign revolves around invisible villains.

[SirViss]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

I would say that Images used to nullify Invisibility would allow you to see where the invisible guy is' date=' but not to see what he's doing, or even to see him well enough to counter the OCV and DCV penalties involved with fighting an invisible guy. If you want to counter those penalties, buy the power as a Suppress.[/quote']

 

To allow Suppress to have this same effect, you could just put a Limitation on it "Only to reveal where a Subject is (-½)". Or maybe that should be a Side Effect.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Change Environment, Usable as an Attack and Ranged. Only to Illuminate Target.

 

Enhanced Sense: +6 PER (Normal Sight), Usable as an Attack and Ranged.

 

QM

[casualplayer]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Just a spell/ability that lets you defeat the Targeting PER modifiers against an Invisible target UBO, maybe with some Limitations that you only see the outline of the target and can't really exercise Discriminatory sensing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Yeah' date=' that's what I was thinking. Just a spell/ability that lets you defeat the Targeting PER modifiers against an Invisible target UBO, maybe with some Limitations that you only see the outline of the target and can't really exercise Discriminatory sensing.[/quote']

 

That would work if the invisibility effect was built using Images vs. Sight which works via a PER modifier. However, if the invisibility effect was built using Invisibility (the HERO power) it would not since that power does not impose a PER modifier but instead just completely stops the senses it was designed to.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Yeah' date=' that's what I was thinking. Just a spell/ability that lets you defeat the Targeting PER modifiers against an Invisible target UBO, maybe with some Limitations that you only see the outline of the target and can't really exercise Discriminatory sensing.[/quote']

 

As Hyper-Man said, Invisibility the Power does not impose PER Modifiers.

 

If the Invisible: Sight target is within 1" and has no bought No Fringe then a Sight PER roll may be made to by at -1DCV, 1/2OCV for HTH.

 

If the Invisible: Sight target has No Fringe, or at greater than 1" you can make a PER with a Non-Targeting Sense to be at -1DCV, 1/2OCV for HTH.

 

Best case scenario is you can add PER Bonus Modifiers to Sight or other Non-Targeting Sense to try and increase your chances of identifying the location. Either way there's no way around the Must Be Within 1" or the Non-Targeting Sense Roll.

 

In the case of the latter the effect must match-up with the Non-Targeting Sense used (usually Hearing, but no always). Both Mechanical and Effect aspects.

 

If invisibility is bought some other way than Invisibility The Power then PER Modifiers may come into play.

[Thrakazog]

Re: Increasing Target Visibility

 

I had to deal with this issue in my Car Wars Hero campaign. A rare but effective gadget is the limpet beacon. Attach one to a vehicle and scoring hits with radar or laser-guided (depending on the beacon used) ordinance is a piece of cake. It's still a work in progress.