DC vs Defense

[Alcamtar]

In 6e2, Steve suggests that defenses should be 2x to 3x the DC of the average attack for a campaign, in order to maintain balance. Too low and characters go down too easily, too high and they are invulnerable. I assume that refers to normal defenses, and resistant defense should be roughly 1/3 of that.

 

How does this apply to fantasy and other Heroic genres? Does this sound right, do do you do this, and if not why not?

 

I am wondering because sample characters and creatures in the bestiary don't even remotely follow this guideline.

 

Normals can punch for 2 DC, but have only PD 2. They should have PD 4-6 by this guideline. And if they use a simple weapon like a club they can easily manage 3-4 DC, suggesting PD in the range of 6-12. That is pushing past NCM...

 

For low powered heroic fantasy, regular attacks are in the range of DC 4-6, suggesting defenses around 5r/12t. That probably matches a well built warrior pretty well. Sample monsters at this power level:

Boar (DC 5, 3r/6t)

Zombie (DC 4, 4r/4t)

Mummy (DC 5, 8r/8t)

Ghoul (DC 4, 3r/5t)

Minotaur (DC 7, 3r/12t)

Gargoyle (DC 7, 6r/12t)

Orc (DC 4, 4r/8t) with a sword and hard leather +3 rPD

Here we see the defenses are very low, generally only 1x to 2x the typical DC.

 

In a higher powered game characters can be expected to regularly deal out DC 8 or more and deal with larger threats. We should expect to see defenses in the range of 8r/20t:

Grizzly (DC 9, 2r/9t)

Lion (DC 9, 1r/10t)

Troll (DC 10, 2r/14t)

Ogre (DC 9, 2r/11t)

Giant (DC 9, 6r/18t)

Wyvern (DC 9, 10r/18t)

Giant Beetle (DC 12, 8r/16t)

Dragon (DC12, 14r/20t)

Giant Worm (DC12, 8r/28t)

Some creatures have appropriate defenses, but others struggle to stay above a 1x ratio.

 

I am trying to figure out what DC and DEF to set for a high powered fantasy campaign. I want to use the bestiary to save work. The attacks seems appropriate, but the defenses seem very low. Steve seems to not be following his own advice (and it's good advice).

 

I have set the Active target at around 75 AP because that is what sort of spells I want to use, but this seems like it will easily walk over anything in the bestiary. Maybe I could limit attacks to 45 or 60 active, and allow the additional active pts only for non-damage effects like area or reduced END or whatnot.

 

Looking for perspectives here.

[Outsider]

If the PCs are throwing around 5D6 Killing attacks (75AP) then they're going to be tearing through the bestiary monsters pretty darned quickly on BODY anyway, so the monster's STUN stopping power isn't all that concerning.  

 

If you are still concerned with STUN stopping power, your PCs will be doing prodigious amounts of STUN... The Bestiary monster's PD/ED would have too be 3x the DC of the PC's attacks  (45PD Orcs, coming up!) to make them more than one hit and unconscious foes.

 

I would definite recommend the two tier AP target you mentioned.  45 AP on damaging effects, 75 AP, all included.  It won't help the weaker monsters much, but at least the Dragon won't be a one hit wonder.

[Christougher]

You also have to take into account the differences in genre.  In superheroics, you usually knock the badguy unconscious and haul them to jail where they escape.  In fantasy, you cut them down and leave the body to rot where it falls.  So lower defenses, abundance of Killing Attacks and relative difficulty associated with getting Resistant Defense actually help accomplish that - minus the problem of often KOing the orc.

 

With Magic, 75 AP is high but not necessarily bad; the wizard will have awesome power but he will pay through the nose for it.

 

Chris.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Also in different Genres, you have different scales of attacks.   Look over the weapon list and examine the kind of damage your characters are likely to be dealing out.  A greatsword does 2d6 killing, that averages 7 body and 14 stun (if you use hit locations).  So a monster with 8 rPD will take zero body and probably even zero stun from that attack.  now look at the defenses available.  Plate armor gives you 8 rPD, so you can be just as tough as that monster against killing attacks with enough money and time.

 

However, that same sword can deal up to 12 body even before any martial arts maneuvers or strength is added, and a hit to the head doubles that (minus 8 for the defenses, x2 for location = 8 body), so the hit can be catastrophic.

 

That's the kind of thing I keep in mind when I'm building monsters for Fantasy Hero: how bulletproof do you want them to be, and how big are the weapon attacks?  If you want a dragon to be nearly invincible but have a vulnerable spot, then 14 or so rPD will be enough, but some areas should be lower defense to allow a targeted attack to hit those gaps in the scales for example.

[Alcamtar]

Thanks everyone, that is very helpful. It seems like FH and the bestiary have a DC 6 balance point.

 

Part of what I find confusing is I've seen published magic items with 3d6 HKA or more, and the core rules allow +1d6 or more for Deadly Blow and the like. Plate goes up to 8 rPD even before magical or fantastic materials are considered, and a single level of Combat Luck punches that up to 11 rPD. So the system scales to DC 9+ out of the box, and WILL unless the GM disallows it.

 

But there seem to be a shortage of creatures that can withstand epic-scale fantasy heroes.

 

I am also eyeing the guidelines in 6e1. At 300-400 points you are in the superhero realm, but nothing stops you from playing a heroic game at that level. When you scale up a FH game to 400 pts, do you follow the superheroic guidelines with regard to damage, OCV, CHA, and so forth? Or do you stick to heroic level guidelines, just at the upper end of the range and a broader set of abilities? (It strikes me that NCM can suck up a lot of points, so 400 pt heroes will be less powerful than 400 pt superheroes.)

I've seen a number of fantasy characters posted online built on as much as 600 points, but it's not clear to me what a FH campaign looks like at that level or how you balance it in a systematic way.

[Tholomyes]

Part of what I find confusing is I've seen published magic items with 3d6 HKA or more, and the core rules allow +1d6 or more for Deadly Blow and the like. Plate goes up to 8 rPD even before magical or fantastic materials are considered, and a single level of Combat Luck punches that up to 11 rPD. So the system scales to DC 9+ out of the box, and WILL unless the GM disallows it.

 

The system also supports building a 4d6 KA attack, or Buying up PD and ED (and resistant versions of it) to 20 or higher, or becoming virtually unhittable with DCV, or any variety of things, unless the GM disallows it. That's part of what makes HERO system what it is. It provides a great deal of freedom, but requires greater GM vetting of builds. So yes, Magic items exist, and Deadly blow exists and Combat luck exists, but a GM could easily say "No". Whether they phrase it in simulationist terms ("Combat luck represents being able to dodge enough to turn a hit into a graze; while well fitted plate doesn't impede movement that much, it doesn't provide for that type of agility") or in game terms ("This campaign has a good deal of threats that are around 6DCs of damage. Having 11 rPD means your character will just be too hard to damage, so I can't allow this, as is"), it's part of the GM's job (in HERO, specifically, but this is also true in any system, pretty much) to be able to give that "No".

[womble]

Also in different Genres, you have different scales of attacks.   Look over the weapon list and examine the kind of damage your characters are likely to be dealing out.  A greatsword does 2d6 killing...

Only it doesn't, really. That's likely to be at least 3 or 4d6 with a lot of tables of players, with potential for more if the "no more than double base weapon damage" optional rule is not invoked. Not that I think this is terribly wrong or anything, but don't let the sudden appearance of extra DCs blindside you.

[Ndreare]

Steve wrote the book to reflect how to represent typical members of that race, without the assumption you will be playing superheroes or routine soldiers. Also look at the templates that races have and consider an epic character should be able to mow through most threats in direct conflict if the bad guys lack subtly.

 

If you give you characters 75 AP attacks don't expect default templates to keep up. Think about the damage they are laying down, look in the book at what a .50 BMG does.

 

The villains most appropriate for epic challenges in my games are usually one of four creatures. All of which have power pools that can boost those listed defences.

1: Humans, these are my favorite villains and really they have the ability to stand out in a way villains never do.

2: Demons, with high defences, power pools and damage reduction gear is in order.

3: Dragons, like Demons, Dragons can lay down the pain and take it as well.

4: Fairy, the fey creatures are virtual gods with power equal to or exceeding Dragons and Demons.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Only it doesn't, really. That's likely to be at least 3 or 4d6 with a lot of tables of players, with potential for more if the "no more than double base weapon damage" optional rule is not invoked

 

Hence, the statement in plain English

 

 that same sword can deal up to 12 body even before any martial arts maneuvers or strength is added

 

[NuSoardGraphite]

I tend to go by the factor resistant defense is equal go DC and total defense about double that, it is. Good balance. Less than that, the attack is dangerous. More than that the attack is less effective. In my campigns, most defenses will run betweem 3 and 6 resistant and 6 and 12 total. However, expert combatants, magic users and powerful creatures can exceed these amounts by quite a bit and dominate over average combatants. Thats the dynamic I have tried to convey in my games.