Strange paragraph about Dispel

[Korren9]

I read a strange section of the description of Dispel in 6E1 194 and, since it's not in Errata, I assume I'm reading it wrong. It seems like it was copy/pasted from Drain or something and not edited for content in Dispel.

 

"Adjustment Powers: In the case of a Characteristic or power that’s been negatively Adjusted (via Drain, for example), a Dispel takes effect if it exceeds the current (Adjusted) Active Point total of the Characteristic or power. However, the character whose Characteristic or power is Dispelled must make note of the total on the Dispel dice and compare it to the Active Point total of his power as the Adjustment Power wears off. As soon as the Characteristic or power regains enough points

so that its current Active Point total exceeds the Dispel’s effect, the Characteristic or power returns to the character (at its current, Adjusted but partly recovered, level)."

 

First, Dispel isn't supposed to work against Characteristics. Second, Dispel is an instant power, so it shouldn't continue to affect the power (unless it's bought with Constant, which would then make it much more like Drain than is reasonable)

 

Let me make an example. LadyBug has Flight 40m. Someone used Drain to lower it to 30m. I have Dispel Flight and roll 32. Her flight turns off. Next round, she should be able to turn it back on, but only at 30m.

 

Thanks,

Corey

[Simon]

As you note, ignore the part about Characteristics.  Dispel is an Instant Power, but it's the effect that you're interested in -- if an ability that has been Drained (or Suppressed) is Dispelled, as the Drain/Suppress fades the ability may "snap back" into being if the current points exceed the amount Dispelled.

[Korren9]

Except that Dispel is only an Instant power. Immediately after Dispel is used, the power can be reactivated. There's no need to wait for the effect to wear off or the "points to return".

[Thia Halmades]

Good morning;

 

Caveat; this is not a discussion thread, so for an extended conversation please repost in the Hero System Discussion forum. That said:

 

I think I see what happened here; the sub-section in question details how Dispel interacts with other effects, in this case, Adjustment powers. In the preceding paragraph, and to your point, it specifically states that Dispel does not affect Characteristics. In the paragraph in question, it contemplates, in direct contradiction, “Characteristic or power that’s been negatively adjusted.” What I think is causing the disconnect, is that when applicable (which is rarely), Dispel contemplates the current Active Points of a given power, including any adjustments that have been applied, and that can include objects, potions, or spells that grant additional characteristic levels, because you can also purchase a Characteristic as Power, such as “Belt of Super Strength, +STR 30, OIF (-1/4)” — yes it’s a minor reach, but in a fantasy setting (where Dispel spends most of its time) purchasing characteristics as powers is fairly common. 

 

If the players & GM agree that something is classified as a Power, then it’s subject to Dispel, so my reading of this is that “Characteristic” is referring specifically to core stats only, which is why this doesn’t seem to line up at first glance. If there’s a typo, it’s the omission of the clarifying word “core” characteristics, without specifying ‘enhanced’ characteristics. 

 

I hope that clears up the confusion, please let me know if it does not.

[Korren9]

That perfectly explains the first (and less important) part of the problem. 

 

However, it completely ignores the Second (and more important part) that Simon tried to explain ignoring the same basic rule.

 

Now, if they were talking about Suppress (which is continuing), it makes a bit more sense. But Suppress has it's own name, just like Flight and Gliding, STR and HA, etc.

[Simon]

It's not ignoring anything.

 

Take the following: a magic spell that grants the recipient +30 Strength for 1 hour.  Don't worry about the construct except that it is bought as a Power (Characteristics bought as Powers are NOT Characteristics).  The recipient of the spell is trucking right along, feeling great....and is hit with a Suppress, knocking that spell down to just +5 Strength for his remaining 45 minutes.  Sadness occurs.  Even more sadness occurs when he is then hit by a Dispel, eliminating the Strength bonus altogether.

 

But wait!  That Suppress is going to fade.  As soon as it does (and the total Strength exceeds the amount of Dispel), said spell snaps back into being on our intrepid hero.

[Korren9]

Suppress and Dispel don't "fade". They're all-or-nothing powers. Dispel disappears and soon as it resolves. Suppress disappears as soon as END is no long supplied. (as I understand the power(s) )

[Chris Goodwin]

On 6/23/2020 at 9:15 PM, Korren9 said:

I read a strange section of the description of Dispel in 6E1 194 and, since it's not in Errata, I assume I'm reading it wrong. It seems like it was copy/pasted from Drain or something and not edited for content in Dispel.

 

There are two previous rules questions regarding Dispel and Characteristics here and here where Steve answered, essentially reiterating the "Dispel can't affect Characteristics" part; the first one covers a Dispel against a partially Drained Instant Power, while the second covers a Dispel against a partially Drained Persistent Power.  Both of those taken together might give you the information you're looking for on how a Dispel might affect ongoing abilities that are partially Drained.  

 

There doesn't seem to be any errata about it in the last published errata file dated February 9, 2020.  

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, Korren9 said:

Suppress and Dispel don't "fade". They're all-or-nothing powers. Dispel disappears and soon as it resolves. Suppress disappears as soon as END is no long supplied. (as I understand the power(s) )

Replace Suppress with Drain -- apologies.

[Chris Goodwin]

It seems to me like the heart of the question is muddied somewhat by the reference to Characteristics in the text from the book.  If we set an example like this:  if the target had let's say 35 Active Points in a 7d6 Flurmle, and Drainzor had Drained 20 Active Points worth, then Dispellzor caused the Flurmle to deactivate by Dispelling the last 15 Active Points, then Flurmlator would not be able to reactivate the Flurmle until at least 15 Active Points worth of the Drain had faded.  Even though yes, Dispel is an Instant Power and normally doesn't on its own prevent a Power from reactivating.  That seems like it's intended to be a very niche, very corner case interaction between Dispel and Drain, and was entirely muddied by referring to Characteristics.  (I'm using "Flurmle" as a sort of lorem-ipsum to stand in for some Power that we don't care what it is or does, so that we're not trying to pick it apart.  It can be anything; Blast, Life Support, Desolidification, STR bought as a Power, whatever.)

 

I can't say with any authority that this is what was intended, but this is my best guess at it from my own read on it. 

[Korren9]

Oh! I just thought of another thing that may have been intended!! Not to muddle the waters further! LoL

 

OK 35 AP in 7d6 Flurmle, Drained down to 15 AP, then hit with a Suppress that dispels (lets say) 20 AP of the Flurmle power. If the Suppress is maintained long enough that 5 points of the Drain 'fade' so the Flurmle goes back up to 20AP, it STILL is Suppressed because it's under the initial roll! Once 5 more points of Drain fade, then the Flurmle will be up to 25 AP and can finally be reactivated (at 25 AP worth) even if the END for the Suppress is still being paid!

 

That makes sense to me!