OMCVs and Mind Scan

[unclevlad]

Mental power types are something I don't consider very often;  they tend to be pretty pricey.  But I've got a weird idea I'm trying out right now, and I noticed something.

 

In HD, under Mind Scan (6E1 261) in the power block and first paragraph, +2 Character Points for every +1 OMCV with Mind Scan is an adder...which means it also adds to overall END costs, and if you want, say, Reduced END, is increasing the base cost.

 

However, in CSLs for Mental Powers (6E1 71):  +1 OMCV with a single mental power i(Mind Scan for this) s 1 point.  As a skill level, it doesn't cost END, and it doesn't impact the base cost for the Mind Scan, as it's separate.

 

In terms of using them later, they appear to function identically.  So,

a)  am I missing something, and they are different in some manner?

b)  if they're the same, why would anyone ever buy the Mind Scan adder form?  Particularly since it's quite plausible to consider buying quite a few of them...even a Large Town is -10.  Even if you're intending to slap some significant limitations on...you'd need a -1 to break even, and you still have the increased END and base cost considerations.

c)  Should the Mind Scan adder be cheaper?  

[LoneWolf]

Purchasing skill levels with limitations also requires the GM’s permission.  Mind scan is often purchased with a lot of limitations.  By buying it as an adder you don’t have to get the GM’s permission.  The GM can of course veto it even when you buy it as an adder, but by default it is allowed.  Many GMs are more likely to allow it as an adder with the same limitations that the power has. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah its just a mechanic that's been standard for the power since it was offered, it lets you modify the skill levels with the offset of being slightly more costly for END and Active Cost.  By bundling them, the rules force you to consider the +OMCV as part of the active cost for any limits your campaign might have.

 

I am of the opinion that all the mental powers could be better served with a different mechanic, though.  The Presence Attack model doesn't work well for simulating a lot of things in the source material.

[unclevlad]

20 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah its just a mechanic that's been standard for the power since it was offered, it lets you modify the skill levels with the offset of being slightly more costly for END and Active Cost.  By bundling them, the rules force you to consider the +OMCV as part of the active cost for any limits your campaign might have.

 

Trying to fit the levels into any active point cap is going to SHARPLY limit how much you can do with it...which I suppose might be the intent, but it's conflating notions of "effectiveness" that aren't on the same scale.  

 

But then, more than anything, this might come down to how one thinks about rigid active points caps, and we've had that discussion....

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

But then, more than anything, this might come down to how one thinks about rigid active points caps, and we've had that discussion

 

Right, this might be one of the more typical examples of how active point caps should be flexible, if you're going to use them.  Although 8d6 and +10 OMCV really is enough for most applications and that's 60 AP.  All mental powers except Mind Link fall under the same limitations: they either are super powerful or basically useless, depending on the target.

[unclevlad]

35 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Right, this might be one of the more typical examples of how active point caps should be flexible, if you're going to use them.  Although 8d6 and +10 OMCV really is enough for most applications and that's 60 AP.  All mental powers except Mind Link fall under the same limitations: they either are super powerful or basically useless, depending on the target.

 

8d6 and +10 OMCV won't get you +20 consistently.  -10 may be OK, but if you're in a larger city-style game, you'd be at -2 OMCV, and if it's unfamiliar...?  

 

One thing that helps mitigate the adder issue is, Mind Scan tends to have few advantages, even Reduced END.  The END cost is also sufficiently intermittent that it doesn't need Reduced END that much.  

But it still feels like the cost for the Adder is way too high.  

6 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Purchasing skill levels with limitations also requires the GM’s permission.  Mind scan is often purchased with a lot of limitations.  By buying it as an adder you don’t have to get the GM’s permission.  The GM can of course veto it even when you buy it as an adder, but by default it is allowed.  Many GMs are more likely to allow it as an adder with the same limitations that the power has. 

 

This may come down to style.  You need -1 in limitations to simply break even...and that's ignoring the END cost, which may not be a huge factor.  That said, taking a bit longer look...there are some limitations there that are...ill-considered, IMO.  Both Mandatory Effect and Can't Attack Through Link feel highly abusable, alone or in combination.  But mental powers are a PITA.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well, Mind Scan is deliberately built to make it not break games.  Being able to find an unfamiliar mind in a huge city is an instant mystery killer for a lot of storylines, as an example.  But scanning a city for a familiar person (who is half DMCV to begin with, not expecting any attack) and with a mentalist's high OMCV should be perfectly useful in most cases.

[LoneWolf]

Mind Scan is usually used out of combat so might as well stack out the limitations.  Taking Concentration Must concentrate throughout, ODCV and Extra Time 1 Turn character may take no other actions makes it a -3 limitation.  In all honesty that really does not limit the mind scan in most cases.  

[unclevlad]

19 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Mind Scan is usually used out of combat so might as well stack out the limitations.  Taking Concentration Must concentrate throughout, ODCV and Extra Time 1 Turn character may take no other actions makes it a -3 limitation.  In all honesty that really does not limit the mind scan in most cases.  

 

Which is why the GM says No.  Because they aren't meaningful, or at least not *that* meaningful, at that point, as you said.

 

But it's plausible that this'd be infeasible in any case.  How often does someone buy standalone Mind Scan, versus buying it with Telepathy or Mental Blast, most likely?  Possibly Mind Control or Mental Illusions but those can be a lot trickier.  Those won't share the same limitations, or close to the same degree of limitations, so their active point (and probably real point) costs will force pool sizes and therefore final character point costs.

[Grailknight]

5 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Which is why the GM says No.  Because they aren't meaningful, or at least not *that* meaningful, at that point, as you said.

 

But it's plausible that this'd be infeasible in any case.  How often does someone buy standalone Mind Scan, versus buying it with Telepathy or Mental Blast, most likely?  Possibly Mind Control or Mental Illusions but those can be a lot trickier.  Those won't share the same limitations, or close to the same degree of limitations, so their active point (and probably real point) costs will force pool sizes and therefore final character point costs.

 

The munchkin version buys Mind Scan as a standalone with all the Limitations and puts the other Mental Powers in a Multipower.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

 

The munchkin version buys Mind Scan as a standalone with all the Limitations and puts the other Mental Powers in a Multipower.

 

Then I say No.  But you do have a point, that if you want to work through a mind scan, you may need it to be separate.  It's not outside the MP for points savings (it has to cost more than just an MP slot), it's because it has to run in parallel.

[LoneWolf]

The idea of a person meditating and seeking out the mind of his target is so common it can be considered iconic.  So, why is putting the limitations to reflect that considered to be the munchkin version?   When you meditate the idea is to block out all outside stimuli (O DCV completely unaware of your surroundings).  In most cases achieving a meditative trance requires some time (Extra Time 1 turn or longer).  Why would a GM disallow those limitations as being inappropriate?

 

Personally, I have more reservations about a person able to scan the entire world while dodging bullets, than I do with a person having to sit down and close their eyes for 12 seconds. Not that I would require a character to take the limitations if it does not fit their special effect. 

[Grailknight]

33 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

The idea of a person meditating and seeking out the mind of his target is so common it can be considered iconic.  So, why is putting the limitations to reflect that considered to be the munchkin version?   When you meditate the idea is to block out all outside stimuli (O DCV completely unaware of your surroundings).  In most cases achieving a meditative trance requires some time (Extra Time 1 turn or longer).  Why would a GM disallow those limitations as being inappropriate?

 

Personally, I have more reservations about a person able to scan the entire world while dodging bullets, than I do with a person having to sit down and close their eyes for 12 seconds. Not that I would require a character to take the limitations if it does not fit their special effect. 

 

It is indeed in iconic in the genre but can you honestly say that those Limitations hurt the Power and come up enough to warrant the +3 total that they are worth?  It's not so much the Limitations themselves but that they don't truly Limit Mind Scan, You are taking Limitations that have their value based on Combat times and applying them to a Power that is most commonly used out of combat. Hero is made to simulate the action scenes of it's genre and Powers that take longer than a phase get a large discount out of line because of that.

 

On 7/7/2022 at 7:13 PM, LoneWolf said:

Mind Scan is usually used out of combat so might as well stack out the limitations.  Taking Concentration Must concentrate throughout, ODCV and Extra Time 1 Turn character may take no other actions makes it a -3 limitation.  In all honesty that really does not limit the mind scan in most cases.  

 

Your own last sentence acknowledges this . A Limitation that doesn't Limit the Power is worth -0.  In this case, it does have some value but no more than -1/2 IMO.  And that's only because you have to keep concentrating after activating the Power otherwise -1/4.

 

 

[unclevlad]

4 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The idea of a person meditating and seeking out the mind of his target is so common it can be considered iconic.  So, why is putting the limitations to reflect that considered to be the munchkin version?   When you meditate the idea is to block out all outside stimuli (O DCV completely unaware of your surroundings).  In most cases achieving a meditative trance requires some time (Extra Time 1 turn or longer).  Why would a GM disallow those limitations as being inappropriate?

 

Personally, I have more reservations about a person able to scan the entire world while dodging bullets, than I do with a person having to sit down and close their eyes for 12 seconds. Not that I would require a character to take the limitations if it does not fit their special effect. 

 

Then just go with Concentration, 0 DCV.  That'd probably be OK;  as you say, that means it can't be used in combat, so that's probably worth something.  It gets to be abusive when you pile on a bunch of limitations that all say the same thing:  can't be used in combat.  It gets redundant after the first;  that's the munchkin aspect. 

 

And hey, Concentration 1/2 DCV alone says "dangerous to use in combat."  1/2 DCV is nasty.  1/2 DCV and Extra Phase says "use only in a secured location."  Combine that with the utility of Mind Scan...it's a searching power.  OK, where do we have to go?  Clairsentience has some of that, but it also has "ok, what are we facing?" which is more immediate.  There's some cases where Mind Scan can be used in combat...if everyone's disguised, which one is the mastermind?  Or, OK, we have a bomber at the Super Bowl, we know he's here...where is he?  Even if you're not truly on phases, there can well be time pressure...so *some* limitations can be in order.  

 

 

[LoneWolf]

By default, mind scan can be used in combat and does not lower your DCV and only takes a ½ phase like any other mental power.   In most cases a character with mind scan will be using it out of combat, but that does not mean they cannot use it in combat.  If I take those limitations on mind scan, then I cannot use it in combat. The other thing to look at is that even if the limitations don’t impact the mind scan itself, they have a huge impact on the character.  

 

 

Your character is going to be a 0 DCV for a full turn and should be considered out of combat.  That means you take x2 Stun from any attacks.  You also don’t get a perception roll to spot someone about to attack you; even danger sense will not spot an attack.  If you take a single point of Stun, it prevents the mind scan from working. You also cannot do anything for a full turn.  Basically, you have made yourself a sitting duck when you are using the power.  So, basically you can only use this power when you know you are completely safe and are not in a hurry.  You will probably need to arrange to be a safe spot to do this, which is going to make using it even harder.  Using it in the middle of the street is going to leave you incredibly exposed.  So, yea these limitations do limit how and where and when the power can be used.     
 

[Hugh Neilson]

With no limitations, Mind Scan can also be used to locate an invisible opponent, and establish the ability to target other mental powers.

 

The same logic that extra time and concentration should not be allowed at full value for Mind Scan applies to a lot of other powers. And does it really matter that they also need to gesture or incant throughout?  Is i really more limiting to need 5 minutes, or even 20, than 1 minute?  All are "non-combat time".  Take this one step furher - Extra Time past one day is really more limiting than "1 charge", isn't it?  The charge will recover once a day, after all.

 

It's odd that there is so much concern for the value of these limitations but no concern that Mind Scan is priced the same as Mind Control or Mental Illusions.  Is it really of equal value, especially if priced primarily based on its combat utility?

[LoneWolf]

The original post was about the cost of increasing the OCV of mind control vs purchasing a 1-point skill level.  It was stated that in order to even break even you needed at least a -1 limitation.  My point is that it is not that hard to come up with enough limitations to make it worthwhile to purchase the increased OCV in the mind scan instead of using skill levels.  

 

This does not mean that this is the only way to buy it.  If you are going to be using mind scan in combat than using the skill levels is going to probably be the best way.  If you are going to be using mind scan out of combat using the increased MOCV in the power may be a better way.  By having both options available it allows you to purchase the power in a way that fits your special effect.

 

Reducing the cost of increasing the MOCV in mind scan would actually make that version of the power significantly more powerful.    Using the limitation that I suggested reduces the cost of scanning large areas to .5 pts per +1.  So, for about 10 points you can scan the whole world.  That means you have to pay 1 more END and it increases the active cost.  If the campaign has active cost limits that will reduce the amount of dice, you have in mind scan.  The character that uses skill levels pays 20 points but does not have to pay END and may be able to purchase more dice. That to me seems about right.  If you reduce the cost of the MOCV of mind scan, scanning the world cost 5 points.  That to me does not see equal.

 

While the majority of the game is focuses on combat the non-combat time still matters.   The biggest limitation on extra time is often when you can use the power.  If I have a teleport that takes me an hour to use and there and I need to a location a few miles away to catch the villain I had better have an alternate way to get to the fight.  On the other hand, if I need to travel to South Africa to follow up on a lead that hour delay is probably going to be a lot faster than taking plane.  

 

If you want to argue the relative values of various limitations that is a whole different discussion.  
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'd allow all the limits etc, but would either suggest they be reduced if its not going to come up much or try to find ways that they would matter.  Like getting a text from a DNPC in the middle of trying to mind scan, or someone bumping into them, or an attack, that kind of thing.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The original post was about the cost of increasing the OCV of mind control vs purchasing a 1-point skill level.  It was stated that in order to even break even you needed at least a -1 limitation.  My point is that it is not that hard to come up with enough limitations to make it worthwhile to purchase the increased OCV in the mind scan instead of using skill levels.  

 

This does not mean that this is the only way to buy it.  If you are going to be using mind scan in combat than using the skill levels is going to probably be the best way.  If you are going to be using mind scan out of combat using the increased MOCV in the power may be a better way.  By having both options available it allows you to purchase the power in a way that fits your special effect.

 

Reducing the cost of increasing the MOCV in mind scan would actually make that version of the power significantly more powerful.    Using the limitation that I suggested reduces the cost of scanning large areas to .5 pts per +1.  So, for about 10 points you can scan the whole world.  That means you have to pay 1 more END and it increases the active cost.  If the campaign has active cost limits that will reduce the amount of dice, you have in mind scan.  The character that uses skill levels pays 20 points but does not have to pay END and may be able to purchase more dice. That to me seems about right.  If you reduce the cost of the MOCV of mind scan, scanning the world cost 5 points.  That to me does not see equal.

 Oh, I see - about 10 extra points.  This is a good eyeball estimate.  With no limitations, for +20 points, you can Scan the entire world in one action.  If you must Concentrate at 0 DCV throughout the time the Scan is active, it's only costing 10 points to Scan the entire world.  We could alternatively start with the presumption you can Scan a much smaller area by default, then scale it up with 5 point adders, but the OCV method works, and allows for variance.

 

We still have Margarita Man (some day I will find some way to make him useful in a game...) but most powers can be abused if you spend a minute or two working up a way to do so.

 

If you popped Mind Scan in a Multipower with a 60 point pool  you have 8d6 - you can find people, and you don't need to roll high enough to attack if your mental powers are all in that same Multipower.

 

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

While the majority of the game is focuses on combat the non-combat time still matters.   The biggest limitation on extra time is often when you can use the power.  If I have a teleport that takes me an hour to use and there and I need to a location a few miles away to catch the villain I had better have an alternate way to get to the fight.  On the other hand, if I need to travel to South Africa to follow up on a lead that hour delay is probably going to be a lot faster than taking plane.

 

Often, this is a Speed of Plot issue.  If the team has no way to get to Tokyo other than commercial airfare, then seeing Godzilla rampaging on TV, followed by "Well, you guys suck - Godzilla levels Tokyo and heads back out to sea before you can even book air fare.  See you at next week's game.", I am guessing there will be no game next week (or a different GM).  On the other hand, if one player invested in a Megascale Teleport big enough to transport the team (say, in a minute of Extra Time), this is an opportunity for him to take the spotlight, and see value for those points.

 

If the team has that Teleporter, then the Bad Guy's plans likely rely on them not getting to South Africa and back in an afternoon.  If they don't, then following up on that clue within a few hours is likely not critical to the plot.  Or, if it is, it's just another outlet for a sadistic GM.  "Well, since you could not get to South African and back by lunch time, the Bad Guys win and conquer the world" is another way to say "I don't want to run the game any more - who wants to GM?" with a risk of needing to find a new group if you want to play.

[unclevlad]

And we aren't saying non-combat time doesn't matter.  What we're saying is that many limitations have much more value in combat than they do out of combat...particularly if they're stacked together.  1 Turn, 0 DCV, and x2 END (when the END cost is paid only occasionally) won't matter even if, on completion of the power, you *do* immediately go to phases.  (The GM could rule that this is your action for phase 12, so you'd be at 0 DCV should the Bad Guys be alert enough to actually respond.)  The subsidiary aspect:  even 1 turn alone is a massive problem for a combat power.  Or the 0 DCV.  Either one says, OK, mostly I intend to use this outside combat...so I have to live with that, or I build an MP with a separate, combat-capable form.

 

Mind Scan is also a very tricky power, in that the mentalist never needs to be actively exposed to the combat.  It has no line of sight or line of effect limitations, so while everyone *else* can be in combat...the mentalist is potentially on phases, but not in combat.  So things like 0 DCV tend to not matter.  You design the mentalist to NOT be shot at very often.  The Extra Time does, but not the others so much.  

 

I'm strongly of the opinion that you can't just look at power definitions abstractly;  you have to consider them holistically.  

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Like many powers, Mind Scan can be used positively or negatively for the game.  Margarita Man sitting on a beach, undetectably scanning and controlling any target he chooses with no risk of retaliation, is an extreme example.  I've also heard discussions of the Tunnelling Mentalist.  He has enhanced vision powers to see through walls and rocks, and Tunnelling with "fill the hole", so he just Tunnels 10 or 20 meters down, then uses his mental powers on those above, secure that no one can blast through the terrain above to attack him in return.

 

Line of Sight is a boon to a sniper, so the mentalist tends to draw the player seeking an undetectable/inaccessible sniper character.

[LoneWolf]

You are also ignoring the fact that by taking that level of limitation you can no longer use the power in combat.  Considering a large amount of the game is when the characters are in combat that is quite limiting.  Power you cannot use in combat are and should be a lot less expensive.  The non-combat multiple for movement is a perfect example of this.   I can buy 15 inches of flight for 15 points.  For an additional 15 points I get a x8 noncombat.   If I were to purchase the extra flight as normal flight and apply a limitation not in combat that would be a -6 limitation.  If you are going to allow the non-combat flight, not allowing the limitations on mind scan is not really fair.

 

The big problem with Margarita Man is the cumulative advantage.  That character is in the same class as Landlord Man.  Using him in an argument is kind of pointless.  No GM is going to accept a character like that.   Those type of characters are the reason that the GM should always review any character. The Hero system has an incredible amount of flexibility, but that also means it can be easily abused. 

 

All this is doing is reinforcing my point that the cost of OCV in mind scan does not need to be lowered.  Lowering it will just make it easier to make overpowered characters.        
 

[Hugh Neilson]

It does not matter what the cost is.  While Margarita Man is an extreme example, the ability to sit in a secure, impregnable vault, Mind Scan until you find the target and use mental attacks with impunity, from half a world away, is inherently unbalanced.

 

Is Mind Scan actually designed to be used in combat?  I already know where my opponents are, and I have Line of Sight on them.  How useful is it to blow a phase on Mind Scan?  It's really only useful in combat if the opponent is employing similar sniper tactics.

 

To the initial question, the cost of +1 OCV for a single attack as a combat skill level is 2 points - why do we need a special adder for mind Scan when we effectively have the same adder for every other power?  If there is a reason, it can only be that limitations are not typically allowed on 2 point skill levels, so with Mind Scan, you can have limitations as long as you accept the END cost at no point savings.