Power Build Questions (VPP Usable Simultaneously)

[Cloppy Clip]

I'm afraid I'm back with some more muddled questions, so a huge thank you in advance to anybody who can help me out!

 

I've got an idea kicking around my head for a villainous organisation patterned on a spider, with the leader being the Head who can grant powers to each of the eight Legs that serve underneath them. While it would be possible to handwave this, I've been having some fun cooking up ways to build the Head's power, and what I've settled on at the moment is a form of VPP with Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 Recipients, +1) as an advantage on the Control Cost, but there are a few problem areas I'm not sure about.

 

Firstly, I can't find anything in the rules covering this situation, so I'm not sure how the Pool is divided up. If the Head buys a Pool of 80 points, would each Leg be able to access 10 or 80 points worth of the VPP? My gut tells me the first is more balanced (that the Pool is divided among Recipients), but I can't find a rule that actually spells that out.

 

Also, I'm not sure how to judge the value of a limitation I feel is quite important for the concept. The VPP is necessary to give each Leg a different power, but I want each character's power to remain fixed once they've obtained it. So if Character A receives Blast 2d6 the first time the Head grants him a power, that's the only power he can ever receive from the VPP. It's a little counterintuitive, but what would the value of VPP Can't Change be as a limitation?

 

That's what I've got so far. It's an odd power, I know, and one I should probably hold off on until I have some more experience with the system. But I figure jumping in at the metaphorical deep end will be a good learning stimulus if anything, so I hope you don't mind me plowing on regardless.

[Hugh Neilson]

This sounds more like a Major Transform, which can grant a target abilities he does not normally have.  That could be a VPP limited only to such Transforms.

 

A VPP with Usable by Others would only grant that advantage to each power within the VPP, not allow someone else to use the VPP.

[Duke Bushido]

Additionally-- though I am not certain about this anymore, as it doesnr come up much in our games- does not Usable By Others have a range limit from the grantor?

 

I would go one of two ways: in-game-- that is to say that one character is creating super beings on the fly as part of the game in progress, then the only rules-legal way is as Hugh points out: Tranformation.  Be prepared to soend boatloads of points buying down the timechart, though, as by the book, t-formed characters will being to "heal" back to their normal selves, even if it is not in their best interest.  Pick a time surarion that exceeds their lifespan to make this change "permanent."

 

(Though I think someone can use appropriate powers to "heal" them back anyway- dash handwavium liberally into sauce until seasoned to taste to prevent this)

 

Unless, of course, the goal is _temporary_ powers, in which case pick a slot on the timechart that suits your desires.

 

Now if this is off-screen, behibd the scenes stuff, then I would handle it purely with the narrative: the superwizard Mangulos used his super powers to turn me into Captain Flying Strong Guy! _is_, ultimately, just an origin story for the good captain, and even if it hapoens on-screen, I would treat it as such. 

 

 

[unclevlad]

I see no reason why you can't use Usable Simultaneously, you don't need (or want) to go the route of Transform.

 

But it's not on the control cost, it's simply in the powers you build in the VPP.  So if it's a single power that can be shared, then:

VPP, pool size 50 Points, 50 Control Cost.  Powers can be changed as a 1/2 phase action (+1/2 to the control cost.)  If the VPP can *only* be used for Usable Simultaneously, that's worth a limitation to the control cost...but it'll become a required modifier on every power in the VPP.  So you build the Blast, 5d6, Usable Simultaneously by 8.  50 points.

 

This is gonna force both the pool size and control cost to be...pretty darn big.  Want a sizable power?  Big control cost, big pool size.  Want more than 1 power...like an attack and a defense?  Big pool size.

 

An alternate approach is UBO rather than simultaneously, where Grantor can give the power to others.  Same situation...there's a small limitation on the control cost because it's required for all powers in the VPP.  Here, each minion gets a power...or two or three.  But the control cost need not be as bad, as this UBO is only +1/4.  It would mean the pool size might have to be really honkin' BIG, because each power would have to be accounted for separately.

 

If you want the Head to have versatility, then a VPP mod of Must be UBO or US powers, which cannot include grantor...that would allow the Head to mix and match, but again...every power built in the VPP is required to take some form of those UOOs.  The big question would be, how big a VPP limitation would any of these be?  That's a fairly sizable limitation;  as I've written it, any power which can be put into a VPP can be taken, but the Head can't use any of em on himself.  The broad "must be UBO or US, not on grantor" should be worth at least -1/2.  Anything that says it's limited to a specific form of US/UBO feels like a -1, but they've also got significant negative implications.

[unclevlad]

To explain VPPs in 6E...

 

There are 2 separate numbers, pool size and control size. 

 

The pool size is in Real Cost units...compute the real cost, after advantages and limitations on them of each power.  The sum total of all active powers must be less than the pool size.  The pool size is never subject to advantages and limitations...they're already included.

 

The control size is Active Cost, so the base cost plus advantages.  No power in the pool can have an active cost greater than the control size.  The base cost is equal to 1/2 the control size.  Modifiers can be applied to this.  They are:
--how easy is the VPP to use?  These are the time required to change powers, and whether changing the power requires a skill roll or not.  

--how broad is the VPP?  This is always a limitation, because the baseline is, a VPP can have any power that's legal in a framework.  It's not limited by SFX, or power type.  When I say "Powers can only be UBO/US"...that's a limitation of this type.

--last, common modifiers that are required of ALL powers, and will be applied to the power builds.  It makes no sense to have an advantage as a common modifier, IMO, and at least in HD, it's...really weird.  I never do it.  I do put common limitations.  For example, a blaster's VPP might be:

 

Pool size:  33

Control size:  50.  Base cost is thus 25.  Modifiers:  1/2 phase to change powers;  Blasts, Flashes, and RKAs only (-1/2).  Common modifiers:  Limited Range.

So the VPP total cost is 40 + (25 * 1.5 * 4/7) because 4/7 is the net effect of a -3/4 modifier.  So 37 * 4/7 ==  21 points.

So this VPP costs 54 points.

 

Now, the powers allowed.  50 active...so say, 10d6 Blast.  Can't put Reduced END, that exceeds the AP allowed by the control size.  MUST put Limited Range...but that only drops the cost to 40.  The pool size limits you to 33...so you must apply another -1/4 limitation.  Take your pick...Reduced Pen, No Knockback, perhaps Delayed Phase.  It can be whatever you want.  As long as you don't list it as a Common Modifier, it can be anything the GM allows.

 

Now let's go with a slightly more complex VPP.

Pool size:  TBD

Control size:  40.  Mods:  1/2 phase to change;  Personal defenses and Flight only (-1, by my lights, but others may say it's less).  Common mod:  Requires a Skill roll.  (The cheesy common limitation because the same roll you use to manipulate the pool, can be used here.)

Powers:

combat flight:  24m, Position Shift (29 base), Reduced END.  36 points, --> 24 from Skill Roll.

non-combat flight:  18m, x8 NC (28 base), Reduced END.  35 --> 23.

Resistant Protection, 10/10 Hardended (37 points).  Nonpersistent.  Makes the net limitation -3/4.  37 * 4/7 is 21 again.

Damage Negation, 4 PD/4 ED (40 points).  Nonpersistent, -1/4.  STUN Only, -1/2.  Net -1 1/4 limitation.  So 40 * 4/9 == 160/9 is 18 points.

 

This'd be the player's standard allocations...one of the flights, and both defenses.  They're tunable, tho...if he's worried about an energy projector, switch things around.  The pool size to do all this would then be 24 (combat flight) + 21 + 18, or 63.

 

This VPP incorporates powers in 2 categories, defense and movement.  You can go with more...like attack powers.  You can do this in different ways.  #1:  you can use 2 of the 3 categories at once...or you cut your defenses back to use your attack AND move, when that's feasible.  #2:  you just make a big enough pool to have an attack, your defenses, and some level of combat move.  (Attacking while moving at non-combat speeds is rather hard, so if you make your NC movement power expensive...that's often fine.)  I tend to build a VPP like this in stages, as I figure out exactly the sizes of each stage.  The final pool size isn't likely to be known until the end.

 

 

[Cloppy Clip]

Thanks for the answers, guys. I think I was getting tripped up by my experience with Mutants & Masterminds (a similar game, but with enough differences to make problems like this occur), where the Transform effect can't change the number of points a character has, so the way to do this power would have been a Variable-type deal. Having a closer look at HERO's Transform, I can now spot the guidance on added abilities adding to the BODY required. And, come to think of it, the problems Transform has for this kind of thing might not matter so much in this case, as the Legs would all presumably be willing to wait around for the Head to get enough Transforms off, and the powers wearing off over time would just encourage them to come back for top-ups. (Even the part about balancing points added with Complications gives me the idea for sneaking in some brainwashing with the powers, which would be nicely in-character for the villains).

 

But, even if I will go with Transform for this, seeing that worked example of how to do it as a VPP was more than helpful, unclevlad, so thank you for taking the time to do that. If I understand right, my mistake was thinking that you could somehow add UOO to the VPP as a whole, where what you would actually have to do is add UOO to each power created by the VPP before you hand it out? That explains why I could only find guidance on the latter in the books, at least. That bit about adding Requires a Skill Roll with the same skill used to change the VPP seems a bit sneaky as you say, but it gives you one more tool to finetune the powers.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I mean, you could just treat it as a game effect: that's the origin of their powers; spider guy gives it to them.

[Duke Bushido]

There is also this option:

 

"Must be blessed" or somethinf to that nature.

 

Build the characters already with their own VPPs, but it can only,be activated by the Head, who will determine what powers the Legs (hands?) Will have:

 

"Arachnus!  I grant you the powers of Flight and Mighty Strength!  Go, and defeat our enemy!"

 

Arachnus's VPP now provides STR and Flight, period.

 

In all fairness, I don't see it as a huge limitation, but it does what you want: in-world, it is effectively the Head granting powers to the Legs.  Off-camera, you still have the origin that the head granted them these abilities / this VPP.

 

[unclevlad]

Yeah, Duke's solution is another route.  Each minion gets a VPP of, likely, relatively modest size.  The VPP has a "requires authorization" limitation.  That's probably simpler overall. 

[Cloppy Clip]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I mean, you could just treat it as a game effect: that's the origin of their powers; spider guy gives it to them.

I know, but when you have all these rules to play around with it's very tempting to try and work out how something fits together mechanically, at least for me. I suppose I could justify it by saying I'd want to know how to build such a character if I was ever playing instead of GMing, but I know that's not a danger that's likely to occur.

 

The VPP for each minion could work for a different concept, but one of the ideas I had here was that a power was fixed once given for any individual. In effect the Head would be drawing out the potential power the minion hadn't, up until that point, realised. So for this case the VPP wouldn't be necessary, and you'd be back to Christopher's suggestion of calling it the origin of their power.

 

I think, as far as representing this with game rules, a Major Transform feels like the best approach still. And if there was a character or part of the setting I didn't care so much about fleshing out mechanically, I could always handwave things like this away as game effects. Thanks again for the help, everyone.

[Duke Bushido]

 You're still able to go that route with individual VPPs- you can assign a limitation such as "cannot be changed," or once the power is declared, slide points out of the pool and into that power.  Make up the shortages by mortgaging future Dps: any earned experience mist go to power X before XP can be spent elsewhere.

 

The mortgage is not my favorite, but I have done it when a Player needed two or three points to nail a concept.

 

Of course, the re-arranging points on a compkteted character thing is complete anathema to men but I learned years ago that I am the only guy here who doesn't go in for "wait! I have a more efficient power set in mind; let me completely rebuild my character"  or "now that I have this XP saved up, I can change these two powers, pull points out of them, use the savings there and the XP to rebuild this Blast as a Killing Attack..."

 

So because I am the clear minority on this, I am going to say that this is also an option most people have no problems with.  Personally, I am pretty sure it is how you end up with Super Ventrilloquism and Super Hypnosis that sticks to glass of a picture frame, but who am i to argue with Superman?

 

[Cloppy Clip]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 You're still able to go that route with individual VPPs- you can assign a limitation such as "cannot be changed," or once the power is declared, slide points out of the pool and into that power.  Make up the shortages by mortgaging future Dps: any earned experience mist go to power X before XP can be spent elsewhere.

 

The mortgage is not my favorite, but I have done it when a Player needed two or three points to nail a concept.

 

Of course, the re-arranging points on a compkteted character thing is complete anathema to men but I learned years ago that I am the only guy here who doesn't go in for "wait! I have a more efficient power set in mind; let me completely rebuild my character"  or "now that I have this XP saved up, I can change these two powers, pull points out of them, use the savings there and the XP to rebuild this Blast as a Killing Attack..."

 

So because I am the clear minority on this, I am going to say that this is also an option most people have no problems with.  Personally, I am pretty sure it is how you end up with Super Ventrilloquism and Super Hypnosis that sticks to glass of a picture frame, but who am i to argue with Superman?

 

That's an interesting perspective, and would be very useful if a player would sign up with the Spider or a similar deal, but this talk of mortgaging power points and playing around with things like that seems a little complicated to me. I can understand changing your character build if you're unhappy with how the PC plays but still enjoy the concept, as long as it's not too disruptive to the game, but I don't think it should be something you plan on doing as such. So I think we might be in the same boat here. 😅

 

I've been having a closer look at Transform, and I think Major Transform should be enough for adding powers, with the extra BODY to overcome based on the points, but it's got me wondering about the limits of this power, since it seems useful for so many situations. Could I fuse two characters together if I rolled enough BODY for both of them with a Severe Transform or something? In that case would their points be added together, or what would happen there? And could you do the same in reverse, transforming one person into two separate characters with their points split in half? Or does Transform depend on one target = one character sheet?

 

EDIT: Hold on, and apologies if I've missed the mark here. I was taking another look at the VPP method, and from what I'm reading you can't apply UBO to the VPP, but you can apply it to a power created in the VPP, transfer that power and then switch the VPP without the recipient losing access to it. Is there a limit on how many times this can be done, or on how long the powers last for? Because otherwise this just seems like a cheaper way to do my original idea, and with virtually no limits either. Am I missing something here?

[unclevlad]

53 minutes ago, Cloppy Clip said:

EDIT: Hold on, and apologies if I've missed the mark here. I was taking another look at the VPP method, and from what I'm reading you can't apply UBO to the VPP, but you can apply it to a power created in the VPP, transfer that power and then switch the VPP without the recipient losing access to it. Is there a limit on how many times this can be done, or on how long the powers last for? Because otherwise this just seems like a cheaper way to do my original idea, and with virtually no limits either. Am I missing something here?

 

It's simpler than that...mostly.

 

You apply UBO or Usable Simultaneously to the power.  You grant the power to the minions of your choice.  So long as you keep points in the power, the minions can use it.  No, you *can't* switch the VPP away from this.  The power source is still you;  it's just that the minions get to use it for you.  (And you get a WHOLE bunch of people using it independently.)  You never 'transfer' the power itself.

 

The limit is how large your VPP is.  

 

EDIT:  just a brief point on Transform.  Me...I loathe it.  It's pure cheese when you're trying to use it like this.  It's horrendously, grossly ambiguous in this application, and one of the most egregiously exploitable.  The book gives an example of transforming a superhero into a frog...and all it takes is getting to 2x BODY????  Are you KIDDING ME?  If this was Drain, it'd be several HUNDRED points' worth...but all I gotta do is get to 2x BODY.  How can this possibly be balanced?  I suspect the reason is the D&D shifting spells, Polymorph Other, Flesh to Stone, and the like...but that's no reason to write TERRIBLE rules.

 

[Cloppy Clip]

That would make sense to me, but I'm getting tripped up by what I found in 6E1 on page 357 under Power Frameworks. I don't know how much would be okay to quote on a public forum like this, but it says (loosely) the Recipient keeps the power and can keep using it even if the Grantor switches the Framework to another slot, as long as it has the 'Recipient controls power' element of the UOO as in UBO. Is there another rule somewhere governing when the recipient gets to keep the power, because I'm sure there must be some limit on this, but I can't find one.

 

The wording of 'transfer' was a mistake on my part, because that's not quite what's going on. If it helps, what I had in mind was:

 

1) Character A buys a VPP worth so many points.

2) Character A assigns the Pool in their VPP to a power with the UBO advantage.

3) Character A grants this power to Character B in accordance with UBO.

4) Character A assigns the Pool to another power.

5) (This is where my problem is) 6E1 357 seems to say that Character B keeps the power they received in Step 3

6) Repeat Steps 2 to 5 with Characters C through Z and onwards?

 

And that Step 6 seems very problematic to me, for obvious reasons.

[unclevlad]

OK, I was editing my prior answer as you made tweaks.

 

Steps 1-3 are fine.  4 is not.  The power is still A's, he's only granting USE of it to B...and C, and D, etc. if it's built that way.

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

EDIT:  just a brief point on Transform.  Me...I loathe it.  It's pure cheese when you're trying to use it like this.  It's horrendously, grossly ambiguous in this application, and one of the most egregiously exploitable.  The book gives an example of transforming a superhero into a frog...and all it takes is getting to 2x BODY????  Are you KIDDING ME?  If this was Drain, it'd be several HUNDRED points' worth...but all I gotta do is get to 2x BODY.  How can this possibly be balanced?  I suspect the reason is the D&D shifting spells, Polymorph Other, Flesh to Stone, and the like...but that's no reason to write TERRIBLE rules.

 

The original Transform, in Champions III, noted that the baseline logic was "at x2 BOD damage, the target is dead - so at x2 BOD he can be a frog instead".  That original version was All or Nothing (cumulative was a +1/2 advantage, IIRC) to offset, at least in part, working against power defense instead of rDEF.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

The original Transform, in Champions III, noted that the baseline logic was "at x2 BOD damage, the target is dead - so at x2 BOD he can be a frog instead".  That original version was All or Nothing (cumulative was a +1/2 advantage, IIRC) to offset, at least in part, working against power defense instead of rDEF.

 

Working against rDEF was worth a -1 1/2 Limitation, tho, so I don't think that's a factor.  (C III page 33)  The base cost still only gets you All or Nothing, and that in itself is a massive change when they did away with it.  What this argument suggests for comparison is a killing attack that works against Power Def...and that would be 15 points per die, with a + 1 1/2 advantage.  (We're talking the BODY only, so the base becomes rPD or rED.)  That would be cumulative.  Transform is a flat 15 points per die and still cumulative.  How are these comparable?  Yes, there's a tweak:  the target isn't dead.  Something like Regen will reverse any transformation, given time, but let's also realize that once you're a powerless frog, your opponent can do whatever the heck he wants...many of which will kill you.  The transform doesn't...but both barrels of the double barrel shotgun with Dragon's Breath rounds sure will.  Or a favorite of mine for D&D...first cast Flesh to Stone, then smash the statue into many pieces.  That's largely trivial now.  Recover from that.

 

But I'm even less thrilled about using Transform to give others powers.  First, this strongly runs into UBO;  that's a major red flag right there, IMO.  But if it's gonna be done?  Make sure to read *carefully*.  There's a crucial element:  it takes more work.  If you're granting an ability, the target's BODY is considered higher by 

 

(Char Points - Complication Points) / 5

 

and then remember, you gotta double that.  So if our minion has 10 BODY and you want to add a 30 point power with no complications, you go from needing to do 20 points, to doing 32.  Obviously I'm not a fan of this, but IMO the complication would need to be clear and exploitable to be worth anything.

 

Also, OP noted the possibility that the boss could use a Transform, then switch the points around...and the Transform remains;  the minion can still use the power.  IMO?  Forget that noise.  That's also ridiculously unbalancing in this context.  RAW might allow it;  at least, it's relatively silent on this, but it breaks fundamental concepts.  Why can't the boss give everyone multiple abilities, then?  Because it's totally out of balance.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK if you really want to cheese, I'll let you in on a little secret.

 

Aid can only be used to enhance powers a character already has.

 

You can give a character powers they don't usually have with Usable By Others.  Even if its only 1 point in that power.  So you can use UBO to give minions a power, then Aid it to whatever level you want, with a long fade time and send them out.

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 transforming a superhero into a frog...and all it takes is getting to 2x BODY????  Are you KIDDING ME?  If this was Drain, it'd be several HUNDRED points' worth...but all I gotta do is get to 2x BODY.  How can this possibly be balanced? 

 

Let"s take a look at something that tends to get lost in periodic "T-form is too too powerful" conversations:

 

With Killing Attack, I can Transform you into a corpse, and all it takes is BODY x 2.

 

With the frog thing, it also takes BODY x2.  _however_, the default is that you can heal.  You start to heal right away, unless the attacker has _paid even more_ to move recovery down the timetable.  But you get to recover.  You will, given enough time, be a superhero again- even if the attacker paid more than the price of a killing attack.

 

With Killing Attack, at BODYx2, you ain't healing.  There are no more recoveries, no more recuperative vacations, no long sessions of experimental treatment and recovery.  You are a corpse.  Given enough time, you can become mulch.

 

Even if someone paid an exhorbitant amount to purchase his major T-form, and moved it far enough down the timecard that your first recovery comes somewhere outside od your character's natural lifespan, you are still _alive_ and can still be healed. 

 

So this guy who has paid upwaeds of 50 pts/die to turn you into a frog "forever" is still getring far less utility than the guy who paid 15pts /die for Killing Attack because even after he has scored BODY x2 in 'damage,' someone can come along and patch you right back up with the proper healings, or even just another T-form.

 

Killing Attack, though....  You cant be healed from dead.  The GM has to pull some,"it was only Krypronian death-like near death self-preservation catatonic" horse puckey to justify you being revived by anyone short of a necromancer.

 

People are surface-okay (I say "surface-okay" because most people are cool with it until it affects their character personally) with dead is dead.  That seems like a no-brainer for most folks- a bitter pill, to be sure, and it sucks, but most people are surface-prepared to lump it if it happens.

 

But a transient condition that does not kill me and from which I can be healed?  Oh, no!  We aint having no part of _that_, seems to be how the argument goes.

 

Weirdly, the guy who gave you that condition doesn't seem,to be bothered by the fact that the points he paid to cause this temporary effect on you are often _more_ that he could have paid to butcher you outright.

 

I don't often allow T-form in games outside of Fantasy (where they are to be expected, in some measure), not because they are overpowered, but because I get tired of the crying: I dont _want_ to be a perfectly healthy Quarterling who the party is now carrying to the coastal cities  to be cured!

 

Would you rather be a dead human?

 

Oh, God, _yes_!

 

(Not that this is not dramatic licence.  This is a summation of an actual discussion from many years ago.  Note that it is also not the only such discussion on the subjecr that went roughly this way.  Accordingly, to ensure my players are happy, they encounter a lower percentage of non-lethal wizarda than they used to.) 

 

Ultimately, dead humans are cheaper and easier to create anyway.

 

 

4 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

I suspect the reason is the D&D shifting spells, Polymorph Other, Flesh to Stone, and the like...but that's no reason to write TERRIBLE rules.

 

 

I can actually hel.p. you a bit there, historically.

 

It had nothing to do with any of that.

 

It was Fire Storm.  Forgive me if I have the name wrong; I was never a comic book guy.  Anyway, there is a xomic book character with some sort of "molecular powers" and fire where his hair should be.  His signature power is the ability to rearrange matter and turn one thing into another thing.

 

I do not remember the magazine in which the interview edplaining this was printed, but one od the original crew- I no longer recall if it was Petersen, McDonal, Thain, or who was being interviewed- was explaining how some od the things in Champs II and Champs III had come to be.  He used the same line that appeared in Champs III in the explanation of Transformation Attack, stating that it was eventually dexided that it made perfect sense that at the cost of creating a dead body, there was no real reason to deny the ability to instead create something that was every bit as useful as a dead body.

 

It was later editions, starting with 4e (and possibly 3e Fantasy HERO?  I can't recall now; getting old sucks) that began to divide and subdivide and create cosmetic and major and all the other Transforms.  That is also when healing from T-form became possible.  Originally, dead is dead.

 

Now personally, I dont use it much; my distaste for it is the exact opposite of yours:

 

Because of constant complaints of how Godlike it is and the devout belief in the myth of game balance through points cost, there has been  an unending push to "balance the cost."  Jerk, even I feel it slightly necessary given the exoanded scope that grew into it: granting powers, for example. (Wierd that it gets more and more powerful while Change Environment gets less and less powerful on its own, and now requires several addirional purchases- all of which can be made _without_ buying CE, thus relegating CE byvitself as yet another Special Effevt for which you re being charged.  That is probably for a different discussion, though.)

 

The biggest change to T-form (Though the most useful for actually creating something) made it quite expensive, and that was the ability to add points to the target by doing additional "damage."  This meant that a xharacter wanting this abikity had to buy _lots more dice_ or pay considerably more points to up his maximum, neither of which is especially budget-priced.

 

Ultimately, the biggest reason I dont use a lot of T-form is that the oricing versus the utility and the heal-back / be healable mandate has it so hobbled that in general, you almost _can't get what you pay for if you want to so something more than add aome temporary tattoos.

 

Different strokes and all that- completely opposite views on how powerful (or crippled) a single power is.  Overall, I find making dead bodies much more cost-effective, much less controversial, and way more permanent than anything useful that I can do with  the modern iterations of T-form.

 

 

On a different note, does anyone happen to know if 6e  requires a range limit on UBO and how that limit is determined?

 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

Quote

With the frog thing, it also takes BODY x2.  _however_, the default is that you can heal.  You start to heal right away, unless the attacker has _paid even more_ to move recovery down the timetable.  But you get to recover.  You will, given enough time, be a superhero again- even if the attacker paid more than the price of a killing attack.

 

Nope, or materially not so.  The default heal-back is at the rate at which the target would recover BODY.  Unless you've bought Regen, this is on the order of days to weeks.  Meanwhile, you're completely incapacitated or fundamentally defenseless.  If they want you dead at that point, you are dead.  Period.  So this is a non-starter;  the distinction is too minor.  Transform is NOT an Adjustment power and does not have the normal fade rate of an adjustment power. 

 

6E1 307:

Example: Witchcraft uses her Severe Transform 4d6 (humans into frogs) against Blowtorch (BODY 10, REC 7, no Power Defense). Her first effect roll is 18, not quite enough to fully Transform the flamethrower-wielding villain.  Her second roll is a 11, enough to turn Blowtorch into a frog. If Witchcraft has defined the healing condition of her Transform as “target heals back normally,” Blowtorch reverts to human form when he heals 20 BODY — he doesn’t have to
heal 29 BODY, even though that’s how much Witchcraft rolled in total. 

 

Recognize there is little or no real *in game* difference between complete, extended-term neutralization and killing.  If someone's this thoroughly neutralized, they're as much taken out of the game world as they would be if they're dead...especially for NPCs which don't last beyond scenes or chapters anyway.  Sure, there's an emotional difference...a difference of acceptabiliy of action.  That is, to a degree, a reasonable systemic distinction, *to a point*.  Not this far.

 

Your comparison also doesn't recognize that the Transform is going against a less common defense.

 

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The biggest change to T-form (Though the most useful for actually creating something) made it quite expensive, and that was the ability to add points to the target by doing additional "damage."  This meant that a xharacter wanting this abikity had to buy _lots more dice_ or pay considerably more points to up his maximum, neither of which is especially budget-priced.

 

 

Nope.  Not lots more dice.  Multiple actions.  I need to do 50 points?  3d6, 5 actions, AKA 1 turn pretty much.  50 points == 25 net BODY, so if you have 15 BODY, I can give you a 50 point power with no complications.  Oh, and that's character points...not active.  And it'll last *days*.  I can't necessarily do this at the point of confrontation...but I can start doing it when I know my enemies are closing in, or I can do it as a relatively routine measure to my trusted minions.  And I can do more than 1.  Maybe give them an NND where I have the defense, so revolting minions can't use it against me.

 

In this context, compare it to Aid.  Transform can give a power the target doesn't have.  Transform effectively doesn't fade.  Transform doesn't invoke the half effectiveness rule for defensive powers.  Transform has no maximum.  Transform's cost to add points has the higher baseline threshold, sure, but after that it's at 2/5th cost (since you have to go to 2x "BODY.)  Couple that with not invoking the half effectiveness, and to add a defensive power, it's MUCH cheaper...and, of course, you can add a power the recipient doesn't even have, AND you can tailor it.

 

I sympathize with the point that trying to strike a balance among all powers is a terrible objective, but Transform beats RKA, beats Aid, and beats Drain overall.

 

Would you allow a character to have this?

3d6 Severe Transform:  add 50% resistant physical damage reduction to target.  Power lasts 24 hours, then dissipates completely.

 

That 24 hours is a lot tighter termination condition than most.  It's 30 points, so 2 x (BODY + 6) is the amount to be done.  It'll need 40-50 points, so 4-5 actions.  Again...about a turn.

 

If you allow it at all, do you allow it in a multipower?  If the MP slot is switched, does the power remain?  Technically, yes, because Transform is an Instant.  So OK, my MP has this, and another for energy.  I could keep going, of course, but hey, giving every teammate of mine 60 points of defense....and it effectively costs ME *nothing* (beyond trivial slot costs) because I put *my* defenses into the same MP...is nothing but broken.

 

Oh gee.  I can also totally break things.  Instead of the 2 Reductions separate?  I can combine them.  60 active is +12 instead of +6.  But I'll have paid the overhead, so it's 1 extra application, 1 extra phase.  Targets already have it?  Fine, a second slot has, let's say, 6 dice of physical and energy negation.  Not a great combination with damage reduction, but hey, still a sizable overall defensive boost.

 

By RAW in 6E, is anything I'm saying wrong here? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

There is a reason some powers have a stop sign next to them.  That does not indicate "broken" it indicates "easily exploited, keep an eye on it."  If you want to, you can create crazy stuff with transform like a 1d6 constant transform with a huge radius and indirect to make everyone your slave. Put invisible effects on it to make sure people notice.  powerful, right?

 

Except you can do the same thing with killing attacks and dissolve the entire planet.  That doesn't make Killing attack broken, it makes clever insane builds broken.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

.

 

 

Nope.  Not lots more dice.  Multiple actions. 

 

 

Forgive the assumption.  I assumed "lots more dice" because I also assumed you werent foing to sit around and let them het in multiple uses.

 

My mistake.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

13 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Working against rDEF was worth a -1 1/2 Limitation, tho, so I don't think that's a factor.  (C III page 33)  The base cost still only gets you All or Nothing, and that in itself is a massive change when they did away with it.  What this argument suggests for comparison is a killing attack that works against Power Def...and that would be 15 points per die, with a + 1 1/2 advantage.  (We're talking the BODY only, so the base becomes rPD or rED.)  That would be cumulative.  Transform is a flat 15 points per die and still cumulative.  How are these comparable?  Yes, there's a tweak:  the target isn't dead.  Something like Regen will reverse any transformation, given time, but let's also realize that once you're a powerless frog, your opponent can do whatever the heck he wants...many of which will kill you.  The transform doesn't...but both barrels of the double barrel shotgun with Dragon's Breath rounds sure will.  Or a favorite of mine for D&D...first cast Flesh to Stone, then smash the statue into many pieces.  That's largely trivial now.  Recover from that.

 

As I recall, you could also pay for an advantage that allows the power to do STUN damage like a KA. When you have an attack that does STUN or BOD, all your teammates can add to that damage.  A Transform can't be sped along by your allies. A KA that works against Power Defense is a +1/2 advantage (but now requires Does BOD, which would be a +1). Tack on No Knockback (-1/4), does no Stun (-3/4), cannot be bounced (-1/4) and one more -1/4 limitation (perhaps Cannot be Pushed), and we have offsetting advantages and limitations.

 

Yes, the opponent can probably kill you pretty easily.  With a KA, you are already dead, so he does not need to kill you.  Why cast Flesh to Stone instead of Slay Living (which is a lower level spell)?

 

13 hours ago, unclevlad said:

But I'm even less thrilled about using Transform to give others powers.  First, this strongly runs into UBO;  that's a major red flag right there, IMO.  But if it's gonna be done?  Make sure to read *carefully*.  There's a crucial element:  it takes more work.  If you're granting an ability, the target's BODY is considered higher by 

 

(Char Points - Complication Points) / 5

 

and then remember, you gotta double that.  So if our minion has 10 BODY and you want to add a 30 point power with no complications, you go from needing to do 20 points, to doing 32.  Obviously I'm not a fan of this, but IMO the complication would need to be clear and exploitable to be worth anything.

 

Also, OP noted the possibility that the boss could use a Transform, then switch the points around...and the Transform remains;  the minion can still use the power.  IMO?  Forget that noise.  That's also ridiculously unbalancing in this context.  RAW might allow it;  at least, it's relatively silent on this, but it breaks fundamental concepts.  Why can't the boss give everyone multiple abilities, then?  Because it's totally out of balance.

 

Ridiculously overpowered compared to what?  Just calling the boss a plot device and giving powers to minions?  It's no different that "Transform Air into Gold".  The rules don't make that balance - the GM does, or they disallow the power.  That specific use of the much broader Transform power.

 

DUKE:  The UoO default is that powers can only be granted at touch range, after which the recipient can go anywhere they want.  Of course, modifiers exist.

 

EVERYONE WHO GOT IT WRONG LIKE I DID - from 6e v1 p357

 

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When a character buys a UOO power through a Power Framework, if he switches the Framework to another slot the Recipient retains the granted power and can continue to use it; switching the Framework doesn’t “shut off” the UOO power. (This does not apply if the Grantor retains control over the UOO power, such as with a Usable As Attack power; in that case switching the Framework causes the power to stop working at the end
of the Segment.)

 

Clearly Duke must have known that and cleverly forced someone to look at the book so it didn't look like he knew it. Transform, IPE, gamer who missed it to gamer who found it, works over Internet.  WOW!