Can Multiform be used in EC, MP, or VPP?

[Gauntlet]

Checking to see if the power Multiform can be used in and Elemental Control, a Multipower, or a Variable Power Pool. It does show as a Standard and is even in the same class as Growth and Density Increase but I have seen a bit of controversy on this. Was hoping to see what people think.

[unclevlad]

By RAW, it can be included in an MP or VPP.  An EC...not simply, because Multiform doesn't cost END.  Applying Costs END only to activate, to slide a power into an EC, can be very abusive generally, and I think I'd be even more leery about it with Multiform.     

 

Whether a GM would allow this, has to be on a case by case basis.  How abusive is the Multiform, what's the overall concept, is the player simply trying to slide a whole ton of additional goodies onto the character for next to nothing, by slapping them into the MP, so the only cost for them is the slot costs?  This may not apply to a VPP, because the control cost to cover the active points of Multiform will be quite significant.  It'll also factor into the skill roll you have to buy, or the honkin' big cost for No Skill Roll.  Might be doable, but initial assessment is that an MP would be easier and likely cheaper...if I was gonna do it at all.

 

Offhand...I think I'd need a LOT of convincing before I'd allow it.

 

 

[Grailknight]

As unclevlad states, by RAW, it can be placed into a VPP or Multipower as Multiform is a Standard Power. The real question is, "Should it be?"

 

As a GM, I say no. It's just too open to abusive builds. The only limit the rules place is that any Multiform bought this way shouldn't have a VPP or Multipower in any of the forms as those can't be nested. But that's a very strict and probably controversial interpretation of RAW.

 

I just move Multiform back into Special Powers but I've been in a discussion that argued it should be a variant of VPP. 

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

The only limit the rules place is that any Multiform bought this way shouldn't have a VPP or Multipower in any of the forms as those can't be nested. But that's a very strict and probably controversial interpretation of RAW.

 

I just move Multiform back into Special Powers but I've been in a discussion that argued it should be a variant of VPP. 

 

So...if the base is allowed to buy Multiform in his MP, the form can't have its own MP because it's nested?

I don't see that at all.  Multiform itself is a hard separation.  Nothing in any of the other forms is available unless it's defined for the specific form, so there's no conjoining frameworks.

 

I think Mutliform and Duplication should be made into their own class...call it Exclusive, maybe.  Can't be put into any framework, AND can't have both...which means no alternate form can buy Duplication as well.  The base form doesn't necessarily need real power...not if it can duplicate itself, then have the duplicate shift to the combat form.

[Grailknight]

24 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

So...if the base is allowed to buy Multiform in his MP, the form can't have its own MP because it's nested?

I don't see that at all.  Multiform itself is a hard separation.  Nothing in any of the other forms is available unless it's defined for the specific form, so there's no conjoining frameworks.

 

I think Mutliform and Duplication should be made into their own class...call it Exclusive, maybe.  Can't be put into any framework, AND can't have both...which means no alternate form can buy Duplication as well.  The base form doesn't necessarily need real power...not if it can duplicate itself, then have the duplicate shift to the combat form.

 

Making them their own class is the same as making them Special Powers, so we agree there. And as I said, the nesting issue is debatable and probably RAI but not RAW legal. Usage of Multiform is very rare and I doubt that this was considered when it was changed in 5th.

[unclevlad]

I'm taking it a step further.  Duplication is a special power, so that's already covered, but nothing says you can't have Dup and Multiform...just not in an MP.  I'm trying to make a stronger statement.  Most special powers aren't that special;  they're just powers you don't want swapping around trivially.

 

Imagine:

Duplication, create 4, 500 point duplicates;  x2 rapid duplication.  Base 135 points.

Multiform 500 points;  Base 100 points.

 

Now:  Extra Time (delayed phase), Concentration (1/2 DCV) on both.  135 -> 90;  100 -> 67.  So, 157 of the *base form's* 500.  Emphasize defense for the rest.

 

The dups all get the multiform;  the base wants to dup first, then shift.  If caught out unduplicated...shift.  Normally?  Dup first, everyone shifts as they can.  

 

This'd be bad enough, as the multiform can be combat streamlined.  And of course, if one is going to consider maximal abuse...make that 600 point mulitforms, or 650.  Every 15 points above the base 500 costs the base 4, after the 1/2 limit...but having *5* 650 point builds at once, in a 500 point game?  

 

Of course the GM should probably just bar you from his game for even proposing it.........

 

[LoneWolf]

I am not sure why putting a multiform in a framework would be considered abusive.   Multiform already allows you to double the number of forms for only 5 points.   This is the cheapest way to gain multiple forms.  If I have a 60-point MP and purchase 4 fixed slots for it that works out to be 84 points.  If I purchase Multiform by itself and buy up the number of forms to 32, that costs 85 points.  Likewise, you could have a 60-point VPP for about 90 points that would allow you an unlimited number of forms.  For the same 90 points I can have 64 different forms. When you get to that many different forms does it really make that much difference?  

 

Putting Multiform in a VPP is a simple and easy way to create a mimic.  Without this trying to create something that can assume the powers of others becomes complicated and unwieldy.  To prevent this type of character from dragging down the game I would require that it can only assume a form if there is an existing write up for it.  So, if the character can change into another character and gain all their powers, they can use that characters write up.  If it is a form that does not have a write up, they need to come up with the write up before the game.  This is not a limitation on the power itself; it is a requirement to prevent the character from monopolizing the game.   This may not be appropriate for all shapeshifting characters but is for some.
 

[Grailknight]

Because allowing it in a VPP removes the need for spending points on extra forms. Creating a mimic type character would be that GM's permission use that allows a Special Power into a framework. Mimics are super versatile, but they don't get to pick any power that's not available.

 

If you want to allow it into a framework, then be prepared to GM the League of Shapeshifters. Why wouldn't everyone spend the cost of one Fixed Slot to have one or more battle forms that lack the out of combat skills their main form possesses?

Edited June 29, 2023 by Grailknight

[Hugh Neilson]

Assuming 250 point characters (pretty low for Supers, but just as an example), that VPP will need 50 AP to hold the Multiform and a 50 point Control Cost assuming we want no skill roll but are OK with a full phase to change.  I note from 6e V1 p 410 that "only multiform" is specifically contemplated.  For the concept in question, I'd say it only changes under specific circumstances (-1/2), is only Multiform to access memories and skills of the target (-1 1/2, the maximum "only one power" limit).

 

So that's a control cost of 17.  We might be able to Limit the multiform and get by with a lower pool to hold the limited power, but those limitations would apply equally to a Multiform purchased outside a framework.  15 points would get 8 different forms, so we're saving some points getting to unlimited for less than the cost of 16 forms.

 

Assuming a standard Multiform, so our control cost is only a -1/2 limitation (if that - we can access any powers), the control cost is 33 points, or 64 forms + 3 points.  How many different forms did you need?

 

We're assuming this is a game where VPPs are permitted. How much more would it cost to just have a straight VPP rather than Multiform?

 

Is it susceptible to abuse?  Sure.  That's why VPPs have a stop sign and Multipowers have a Caution sign.  Oddly, Multiform does not.

 

Would I allow a construct that allows one player to step on everyone else's toes and unbalance the game?  No.  Might I allow a SuperMage to slot his DragonForm spell into a Multipower?  Depends on the game, and the specifics of the spell, but maybe, at least.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[LoneWolf]

You only need to put the no skill roll required if you want to be able to change the powers in combat.  From the description of the power in the other post this looks like something that is not done in combat.  If that is the case, it drops the control cost to 8 making the VPP cost 58 points.  

 

As to being abusive any power in the game can do that.  If a character wanted the ability to turn into anything he wanted with no limitations that would definitely be something that should be vetoed.  But with some restrictions I could see allowing it.  If I have to kill and be able to read deep into the persons subconscious or kill and consume the character I am becoming, that is not as bad.  Also if all you gain are the skills and memories, but not the powers that also makes it less troublesome.  Something like this the GM should look over and check before allowing, but in the right circumstances is ok.  
 

[Word Sensei 515]

If you want a cosmic Multiform use a VPP: no roll & no limitations should make it expensive enough.

 Rather simply just continue the progression from 4th edition for three or more forms paying less & less. Pay 1 per 15 points for your 3rd form, 1 per 20 points for your 4th form & so on to a minimum cost of 10 points for another form.

40 point minimum for your first multiform. Lesser forms with 2/3 or more total points are possible, just buy the more expensive forms first.

[Gauntlet]

On 6/29/2023 at 12:21 PM, LoneWolf said:

You only need to put the no skill roll required if you want to be able to change the powers in combat.  From the description of the power in the other post this looks like something that is not done in combat.  If that is the case, it drops the control cost to 8 making the VPP cost 58 points.  

 

As to being abusive any power in the game can do that.  If a character wanted the ability to turn into anything he wanted with no limitations that would definitely be something that should be vetoed.  But with some restrictions I could see allowing it.  If I have to kill and be able to read deep into the persons subconscious or kill and consume the character I am becoming, that is not as bad.  Also if all you gain are the skills and memories, but not the powers that also makes it less troublesome.  Something like this the GM should look over and check before allowing, but in the right circumstances is ok.  
 

I am looking to create a character that when it kills its target it becomes them for a limited period of time. Getting all their skills, knowledges, and powers. Then when they kill the next person, they become that person.

[LoneWolf]

The VPP with multiform only works well for that.   If it becomes an exact duplicate of the character killed the multiform only has to be enough points to duplicate the character.  If the character retains any of its own abilities the multiform needs to be enough points to include any stats and abilities, it retains.  

 

You can put limitations on the control cost of the VPP, but not the pool.  Depending on how quickly and easily it gains the abilities of the other character you might need to put some advantages on the VPP.  If it can instantly assume all the abilities of the other character in combat, that is probably going to require No Skill Roll required and can change powers as a zero phase action.   If this is something that has to be done out of combat no advantages are required.  You only need a skill roll if you are changes powers in combat.  

[Hugh Neilson]

While the pool cannot be directly limited, it can be indirectly "limited".  As an example, assume the Multiform can handle a 500 point character (so 100 AP). The control cost will be 50 points, modified by advantages and limitations.  If the Multiform itself will have -1 1/2 in limitations (e.g. extra time), and will only be 40 real points, then the pool can be only 40 points to hold that Multiform power.  That was a major 6e change, as the control cost was previously based on half the pool rather than half the maximum AP of  any single power in the pool.

[unclevlad]

You can also put common limitations on the pool itself, which help reduce the pool size...that's in Real Points...and also apply to the control cost.  For example:

 

Variable Power Pool, 41 base + 62 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Half-Phase Action (+1/2) (87 Active Points); Blast, Flash, RKA (-1/2); all slots Limited Range (-1/4)

slot:  Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (62 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4)

slot:  Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), (50 Active Points)

 

67 character points.  Total sum of powers is 41 Real Points...in this case, generally, it'll be just one power, but that doesn't have to be the case.  The control size sets the maximum Active Points.  The base cost for it is 1/2 the size...so 31 points.  WIth a 1/2 advantage for half phase to switch, 31 -> 46.  46 points for control.  The Blast,Flash,RKA limitation says only these powers can be included.  This gives a -1/2 limitation on the control size.  Last:  ALL the powers must take Limited Range, it's a Common Modifier.  Thus, it'll be applied to all the slots.  This also reduces the control cost.  46 points with -1/2 limitation would be 31....but with the additional -1/4, drops to 26 points.  That's how you get the final cost for this VPP, 67 points.  Note that this does NOT include the cost of the Power skill that is implicit in this definition.

 

On the slots, note that I can build a 62 active point slot...but I have to apply another -1/4 limitation to get the cost down to 41.  OR, I can skip any additional limitations, in which case, the power can have only 51 active points.  Note that this differs from doing it as a Multipower.  If I want an MP that supports 62 point slots, it's 62 points.  I can apply the common limitation Limited Range, that'll drop it to 50.  BUT, applying No KB, or Reduced Pen, or whatever, onto specific slots only reduces the *slot* costs.  It doesn't reduce the overall cost of the MP.

 

IF the -1 1/2 in limitations can be Common Limitations on all the Multiforms, then we get:

Variable Power Pool, 40 base + 100 control cost,  (90 Active Points); all slots multiple limits totalling... (-1 1/2)

    Multiform (500 Character Points in the most expensive form) (100 Active Points)

 

And the whole thing costs 60 points.  I didn't put a Limited Powers limitation onto the pool itself, because of the inherent flexibility of Multiform...but also note that when there's -1 1/2 in common limitations, it won't matter that much.  The control cost started at 50, it's already dropped to 20, and the diminishing returns is kicking in heavily...especially since it's only on 50 points.