City In A Bottle

[Black Rose]

Or at least close to it. How would you, HEROdom Assembled, put this spell (Move Terrain) together?

 

You can define an area, and everything in it is shrunken down and tucked into a little pocket dimension. Anyone who can physically (DCV) OR mentally (DMCV) dodge the effect can try to do so; if successful, they are unaffected. Once the area is shrunken down, it can be moved to a new spot and opened back up.

 

Suitable for moving stuff more than people -- dodging it is really easy, and it takes a little bit for the effect to fully happen, so you get multiple tries. It's called Move Terrain and not Imprison people for a reason, after all.

 

So far, I've done EDM UAA for the "grab people" part, and I'm considering Major Transform AoE for the "turn this place into that place". Any thoughts?

[unclevlad]

Just how large of an area are we talking about???

 

First MAJOR question...if the area is moved, then what the HECK is happening to everything that was connected to it?  If this was a city block, for example...the power, the water, the sewer lines?  The streets?  This applies if it's, say, just 1 house.  Still have all the utility connections.  How deep does this go...cuz if I somehow "don't get caught"...then what?  Sounds like I fall, to me.  

Also, if this is an AoE XDM, which is the cleanest starting point IMO...this requires a dive for cover...outside the AoE.  WHY can this be "dodged"?  Describe the power in non-game terms...THEN we worry about translation into game terms.  We have the first part...an area is moved to a pocket dimension.  Said dimension is encased in a vessel of some type, that sounds to be portable.  "Shrunken" doesn't matter...that relates to normal-world measures, and those are Silly Putty any time you invoke alternate dimensions.  OK, how large, how deep?  Is it actually, physically shifted?  Cuz that sure sounds, as I said, that it'd leave a giant hole.  

 

I'll admit my bias here...I'd never do this.  This is not a definable power, IMO, it's 1000% plot  device..  The being that can do this is so, so, SO far beyond any PC group that it's just not funny, and I *detest* the Ultimate Nullifier gimmick.

[Black Rose]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Just how large of an area are we talking about???

For practical purposes, let's say 8m radius is a good start, with 16-32m radius as a "soft cap", and 500m radius for the "oh God, the villain is stealing the House of Lords!"

 

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

First MAJOR question...if the area is moved, then what the HECK is happening to everything that was connected to it?  If this was a city block, for example...the power, the water, the sewer lines?  The streets?  This applies if it's, say, just 1 house.  Still have all the utility connections.  How deep does this go...cuz if I somehow "don't get caught"...then what?  Sounds like I fall, to me.

Basically bare earth or empty water. In a city, there would probably be some cinder blocks (whether or not there were any there), empty pipes and bare wires sticking out like some kind of cartoon.

 

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Also, if this is an AoE XDM, which is the cleanest starting point IMO...this requires a dive for cover...outside the AoE.  WHY can this be "dodged"?  Describe the power in non-game terms...THEN we worry about translation into game terms.  We have the first part...an area is moved to a pocket dimension.  Said dimension is encased in a vessel of some type, that sounds to be portable.  "Shrunken" doesn't matter...that relates to normal-world measures, and those are Silly Putty any time you invoke alternate dimensions.  OK, how large, how deep?  Is it actually, physically shifted?  Cuz that sure sounds, as I said, that it'd leave a giant hole.

The affected area "shrinks" in on itself for about a Turn, maybe two if it's bigger. When its all done shrinking, it looks like a cantaloupe-sized (or bigger, just not casually one-hand-holdable) model of what was just taken, surrounded by a translucent spherical "energy field".

The caster or someone else can then carry the sphere to where they want it. The caster can just "turn it off" and bring the stuff back, but someone else would have to break through the field somehow. The sphere "grows back" at the same rate it shrank.

 

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

I'll admit my bias here...I'd never do this.  This is not a definable power, IMO, it's 1000% plot  device..  The being that can do this is so, so, SO far beyond any PC group that it's just not funny, and I *detest* the Ultimate Nullifier gimmick.

Think of this more as an "I just stole the Crown Jewels!" effect as opposed to "I just kidnapped every member of the Royal Family and the corgis!" It might even be better to skip affecting "living things" entirely -- I wouldn't sterilize the soil or kill the plants, but I'd leave the cat behind.

[LoneWolf]

I agree with @unclevlad about being able to dodge this.  That makes it seem like you are trying to recreate a spell from a game like Pathfinder that allows a save.   I don’t see a reason this should be able to be resisted like this.  UAA requires you to define a way it can be resisted, but having XDM of your own would make more sense.

 

This is going to be a very expensive power because you have to account for the total weight of the area.  An 8m radius will need to be able to handle about 25 tons, which puts the active cost to 165 points.  The 32M radius will cost you 260 points.  

 

For the altering of the terrain that was moved that sounds more like a change environment than a transformation attack.  A penalty to running due to the fact there is probably a hole in the ground that may have bits sticking out and water leaking out of the pipes creating mud.  

[Duke Bushido]

I wouldn't bother spec'ing it out, either, unless it is important that the PCs find this spell written down or if there is a chance they can learn some variation of it during the campaign.

 

But if I _were_ to build it, off the cuff I would go with EDM, UAA, AoE: diameter (if that is still an option in whatever edition you are using).

 

Alternatively, AoE:Hexes or AoE:Line, and consult Force Wall for converting that to a dome, if volume is important here.

 

The other dimension being, if course, the interior of the bottle.

 

_however_, a case can be made (since you aren't actually moving it to a different dimension), use T-port and Shrinking.

 

For what it is worth, I would use EDN and call it good, for several reasons, not the least of which is tidiness of the build.  See, if you define the interior of the bottle as a pocket dimension of sorts: rivers still run; the sun still rises and sets, etc. 

 

Further, you don't have direct access to the city inside: you can't just wipe out the city by pouring the bottle full of water or asphyxiate them with a cork.  You also don't have to worry about vengeful micronauts cutting your throat in the middle of the night.

 

 

Hope something there helps.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Oh, as to defending / dodging:

 

Make an attack roll against the target hex (as it is an AoE).  Apply your OCV and deduct the city's DCV (for anything larger than a Hex, consult the growth chart to determine the city's DCV).  Do not forget to apply any appropriate Skill Levels the city may have when determining it's success at a Dodge maneuver.  (Alternately, assume thw city is built with the Disadplication: immobile: Cannot dodge.)

 

Any citizens who percieve the attack and are not surprised by it and have a movement value sufficient to carry them outside the field of effect should, technically, have a chance to dodge, so to catch those two or three people who saw you, you might consider Indirect and IPE as well-  surprise them all. 

 

As far as resisting, as you said "spell," I assume both that this is for some sort of fantasy game, and that magic is a thing here.  You might treat any sort of blessing, counter-magic, or anti-magic in play as a means of avoiding the efdects of the spell, or you might even create a "magic defense" akin to Power Defense and work out how it applies to attacks that aren't measured in dice.  Perhaps it removes inches from the AoE?

 

 

[unclevlad]

OK, so, let's see if I have the order down.

Spell's cast.  The bounding field springs up.  We can say it's not impermeable *yet*...that's the process that takes a bit of time.  During that time, someone may attempt to flee through the field, to avoid being trapped.  (We won't get into the logic of whether someone would/should even consider trying it...when they have NO CLUE what the field is doing.)  Do note that an acre...not terribly much area, if you're tossing around terms like "city" still requires a radius 36 meter circle.  Dodging does not cut it.

 

LoneWolf's point about the mass...yeah.

XDM, Single Dimension.  UAA, AoE radius, 36 meters (for 1 acre), Personal Immunity.  That's only 75 points.

 

But the mass????

 

Mass adders are THE KILLER for that kind of Teleport or XDM.  A bit of research gives 200 pounds per square foot for the weight of a house.  So...1500 square feet, that's 30,000 pounds.  Call it AoE Radius 20 meters.  Base mass for teleport or XDM is 100 or 200 kilos, I forget...call it 200, it won't matter.  I need 6 doublings.  That's 30 points of adder tossed onto the XDM.  20 base -> 50 base.  175 active.

 

For one house, assuming a modern house.  If you're set medieval, it'd be lower per house, but there will likely be more houses per acre.  The total mass will be HUGE in any case.  And note that we haven't even *talked* about the mass of the ground *under* the buildings.  1000 cubic meters of dirt...call it average density of about 3, which should be reasonable.  Each cubic meter weighs 3 TONS.  Also note that I'm being EXTREMELY!!! generous...because AoE Radius is a sphere.  THAT would mean it'd be taking along the full hemisphere underneath....or about 70,000 cubic meters.  

 

Note to Duke:  AoE hexes, which is Any Area in 6E, is much, much more expensive.  It's +1/4 for 2, 2 meter hexes.  Double the number of hexes for +1/4.  But AoE radius squares the number of hexes.  AoE Radius, 20 meters, means 320 square meters.  That's 80 units for Any Area, so it's another +1/2.

 

Forget how it does it...seriously.  What do you need?
--for Duke's thought of dispelling or countering?  Active point total.  TOO HIGH for ANY single caster to counter.

--If it can be escaped, then...where's the center point, what's the radius, and how long will it take before the field becomes impassable?  

 

This feels much like an epic spell from 3.5 D&D.  Some of which did STUPIDLY powerful stuff if anyone...like...paid attention to what was going on.  I get...epic spell and all.  Some things easy to describe, are *tremendously* hard to DO.  That can be fine...but realize...it becomes narrative, not qualitative.  And narrative for an NPC means Plot Device.

 

 

 

[MrAgdesh]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:13 AM, Black Rose said:

 "oh God, the villain is stealing the House of Lords!"

That’s no villain. He’d get my vote.

[Cloppy Clip]

This might be better suited for the questions forum, but would all those mass doublings be needed, unclevlad? I'd always assumed that the AOE advantage would mitigate that to an extent: in the house example, each hex the house covers would hold a weight of about 4,000 kg, so as long as the AOE covers the entire house I'd assumed that you'd only need to be able to lift 4,000 kg (6 doublings) instead of 150,000 kg (11 doublings). But, having typed that out, I realise I can't remember where I read this rule. Have I gone and made the whole thing up, or can you skimp out on points this way?

[unclevlad]

It's not clear, but it doesn't feel like AoE should grant extra mass.  AoE means you can move a physically large object, but that doesn't imply a particularly heavy one.  

 

Also, check TK AoE, 6E1 296.  It's combined mass over the area, not per hex.

 

It is confusing tho, to be sure, because UOO reads to me that it's per person...even when it's Grantor controls the power completely, the power's conditions are separate for each recipient.  With Teleport, the limit is "yourself plus a bit."  Now, tho, we get into END...if I can teleport 8 people, and I have to pay the END, how much is it gonna cost me?  Am I forced to pay double, as the UOO increases the active cost, THEN I have to pay that for each person...or is this a single application of a power, which has N active points, and that's it?  If it's the former, then the per-person mass is appropriate.  If the latter, then it's less appropriate.  To make it more complex...what if I've set it up as a Gate?  Gate is written that I have to pay END every phase....per person that goes through, or just per phase?  

[Duke Bushido]

5 hours ago, unclevlad said:

...what if I've set it up as a Gate?  Gate is written that I have to pay END every phase....per person that goes through, or just per phase?  

 

 

Per Phase, _I believe_.  Obviously, I am not the guy to ask 6e questions, but with the chance to play in an upcoming 5e game, I have been browsing 5e a bit (because I am not the guy to ask about 5e, either), and if it hasn't changed for 6e, it seems that when you open the gate, you are essentially holding the power at maximum utility, at least the way I read it, since your maximum target size can pass through it 'whenever.'  Based on this, I would think that you pay END per phase until you close the gate.

 

 

[unclevlad]

Yes, but the point I tried to make, is that the ruling for the END of a gate should inform the ruling for the END for teleporting 5 people at once.  The 2 are very comparable situations, in any one phase.

 

Or, is the ruling that only 1 person may use the gate in a phase?

 

It's also worth noting that...very often, it won't matter much.  Multi-person teleport is very often non-combat and MegaScale.  Thus, tossing in half or even zero END is cheap, because you're buying it on very few base points.  If we're talking XDM, well, that's not the case, but if it's restricted to 1 dimension, even then...Reduced END won't be bad.  

[LoneWolf]

The 6th edition book says that you can use XDM to create gates and referrers you to the section on teleport for the details.   The rules for creating gates state you need both the area of effect and extra mass for it to work.  That seems to indicate you need both for this as well.  Also, UAA normally only affects 100 kg and requires an advantage to increase that, but if the power has its own rules of increasing mass (which XDM does) to use those.    

[BigJackBrass]