HRRH and finding a particular transmitter...

[unclevlad]

Basis for an information gathering specialist.  HRRH, with discriminatory and analyze...I don't figure there'd be much argument about how well he could process the signal.  Oh, and a great Cryptography roll, to break secure transmissions.  

 

But there's a lot of radio traffic out there, so if he wants to find a specific transmitter.......

 

Sounds like Mind Scan, for the Radio class of "minds"?  Make sense to folks?  The Machine class is too broad, he can't read a computer.  A radio typically has no EGO...for purposes of finding here, I'm thinking

--the MDCV base would be 3;  unfamiliar minds, and number of minds, apply.  

--for determining level of effect, the base EGO is 0.  If the attack roll works, he's automatically getting general location/presence/direction, and the +10 won't take much.   +20 won't be hard if enough Scan is bought...that's still TBD.

--this is a scan only, there's no way he can attack the radio back, or interfere with it at all...but at that point, the HRRH kicks in, and he can listen in at his leisure.   

--side thought...if he's trying to find a cell phone...mind scan doesn't cost END to maintain, so he can keep it up...for the location/direction info, if the transmitter is on the move.

 

Thoughts?  

 

 

[Grailknight]

How about Tracking?

[unclevlad]

Wouldn't Tracking require you to find it in the first place?  That's the core question...given that, at any time, there might be something like 100,000 active cell phone calls, say...how do you find the specific one you want?  That feels like Mind Scan.

[Steven Wayde]

Maybe think about how one would find a face in a crowd. All faces/signals are perceivable, so finding one in a crowd might be more about rapidly scanning and Id’ing. 

[unclevlad]

But many of those faces won't be looking in your direction, or will be obscured by a hat, or by something else like someone taller in front of them, etc.  Searching for minds/radios, that wouldn't really matter, so the comparison doesn't seem to fit.

 

Searching for a particular voice...that might be closer.

 

That said...hmm.  A couple levels of Rapid might be another approach.  It doesn't entirely feel right;  it's perfect scanning through frequencies, but cell towers operate in very specific bands.
https://www.signalboosters.com/blog/cellular-frequency-bands-a-simple-breakdown/

 

Mmm...that might still work, as the character can certainly know all those bands, and Rapid would allow him to  scan through them quickly enough.  I'll think about it.

 

 

[Sketchpad]

Wouldn't this basically be a Systems Ops roll? HRRH to receive the various signals, but System Ops with modifiers to determine the proper signal/source?

[unclevlad]

Systems Ops:  Characters with this Intellect Skill understand how to operate sensing and communication devices properly.  

 

Maybe it'd work, but it feels wrong to me.

 

Right now...and it's not locked in stone...I've got  HRRH with Discrim, Analyze, Rapid x100, Targeting, Tracking, and Telescopic x24.  (MegaScale, you say?  It's 43 points without the Telescopic right now.)  Telescopic x24 means no range mods out to 30 km.  I may include levels...the issue with Mind Scan trying to find one particular mind in a sea of minds, feels like it's a clean, sensible approach to use here too.  Finding one particular cell phone or radio operating in the middle of Yellowstone, should be a HECK of a lot easier than one in Times Square on New Years Eve.

[Chris Goodwin]

If you're looking for a particular cell phone, by trying to ping all the phones, then you'd probably want Mind Scan with the Computer class of mind. 

 

If you're trying to replicate the "police looking for a cell phone based on its IMEI and which tower it pings", that would more likely be Computer Programming for its "connect to the internet to find X" aspects, and having a subpoena or a good relationship with the cell phone company would help.  In this case, you're not finding the phone itself but looking through someone else's records of where the phone is.

 

Generally speaking, if you're detecting an (edit) Active (/edit) analog signal and trying to locate its source, get two directional receivers (Detect Radio Transmissions), put them in two different locations, then do some trigonometry.  (Here's an interesting question: in this particular case, would you need to buy Ranged on those receivers?  I would say no, because you're detecting transmissions where you are.  The transmission is coming to you, and you're trying to find which direction it's coming from.)

Edited January 4 by Chris Goodwin
Specifying Active transmitter

[LoneWolf]

What does the power actually allow you to do?  Mind Scan would allow you to find the cell phone but will not allow you to do anything else.  You would not be able to listen in on the conversation, or even tell if it was sending or receiving information.  To do that you would require other mental power like telepathy vs machine minds.  

 

HRRH will allow you to do a lot of those things but requires some extra modifiers.  You seem to have most of what is needed already listed in this post.  I would probably take the requires a system operation roll on this power to reduce the cost.      
 

Edited January 4 by LoneWolf

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

What does the power actually allow you to do?  Mind Scan would allow you to find the cell phone but will not allow you to do anything else.  You would not be able to listen in on the conversation, or even tell if it was sending or receiving information.  To do that you would require other mental power like telepathy vs machine minds.  

 

If the Mind Scan effect roll beats the target's EGO (or INT for computers without EGO), the character knows the distance, and can also open up a Mind Scan if the target is willing.  At EGO+10 the character alao knows a vague direction and can attack with other Mental Powers.  At EGO+20 the character knows the target's exact location. 

 

Although attacking with other Mental Powers can be complicated by the fact that Mind Scan is a Constant Power, and explicitly turns off if it's in a Multipower that you switch points away from.  (The other diced effect Mental Powers are Instant, and last until they're broken out of or the attacker drops them.)

[unclevlad]

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

What does the power actually allow you to do?  Mind Scan would allow you to find the cell phone but will not allow you to do anything else.  You would not be able to listen in on the conversation, or even tell if it was sending or receiving information.  To do that you would require other mental power like telepathy vs machine minds.  

 

HRRH will allow you to do a lot of those things but requires some extra modifiers.  You seem to have most of what is needed already listed in this post.  I would probably take the requires a system operation roll on this power to reduce the cost.      
 

 

HRRH is the baseline sense to justify being able to eavesdrop on any form of radio traffic...police broadcasts, standard radio/TV, whatever.  Once the radio is located, HRRH allows the listening of anything going in/out.

 

The problem with cell phones is there's hundreds or thousands of calls on the same frequency, so you can't simply tune to that frequency...trivial with HRRH...and pick out a specific 

 

Telepathy, when it comes to computers, is reading the data stored on the computer, IMO.  This isn't telepathy, it's not reading the data on the computer, it's reading the transmissions.  

 

Why would it require a Sys Ops roll?  What system is being operated?  It makes no sense to make it a Sys Ops roll, if the purpose is just to cut costs.  I'd rather use a power skill, but overall, it's not worth it.  The mind scan wasn't terribly expensive...and even the RSR Sys Ops would take the active point penalty.

 

Plus, in a case like this, it's not the active points in the power that matters, it's the size of the haystack that's concealing the needle you're trying to find.  That's what Mind Scan's # of minds modifier captures.

 

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

If the Mind Scan effect roll beats the target's EGO (or INT for computers without EGO), the character knows the distance, and can also open up a Mind Scan if the target is willing.  At EGO+10 the character alao knows a vague direction and can attack with other Mental Powers.  At EGO+20 the character knows the target's exact location. 

 

Although attacking with other Mental Powers can be complicated by the fact that Mind Scan is a Constant Power, and explicitly turns off if it's in a Multipower that you switch points away from.  (The other diced effect Mental Powers are Instant, and last until they're broken out of or the attacker drops them.)

 

Yes, those aspects of Mind Scan work nicely.  I'm not worried about attacking through the Scan;  the purpose for it is to justify that a particular cell phone can be located, and listened to.  

 

The writeup at this point doesn't use Mind Scan per se.

HRRP (Radio Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Rapid:  x100, Targeting, Telescopic:  +24, Tracking (55 points)

+10 PER with HRRP (10 Active Points); Only to offset # of sources (a la Mind Scan # of minds) (-1/4)

and for breaking signal coding

Cryptography 21-

 

The Mind Scan was an initial thought for the location aspect...and it still can work.  I think this buys me the aspects of locating and tracking that a maintained Mind Scan would have, and it's mechanically cleaner, IMO.    

 

[LoneWolf]

 Is the power through some sort of focus or is it an innate ability of the character?  If it is through a focus it sounds like a communication device which was why I recommended the systems operation roll.  Mainly this was a way to save a decent number of points.   If it is an innate power than requires skill roll may not fit. 

 

I am not sure tracking is needed or appropriate.  Tracking is more for following something that moves after it is no longer there.  I don’t see how this would work with a cell phone.  They do not leave a trail of energy behind.  Tracking would allow you to see where a cell phone had traveled.  For example, if the target moved away from his location and then came back you would be able to see where he had been.  Targeting should be enough to see it while it moves. 

 

I would avoid mind scan because all you will be able to do with it would be to find the cell phone.  Mind Scan does not give the ability to understand the transmission.  Telepathy is not a perfect fit but could be used to detect the “current thought”.  You are right about it not being a good fit, but it is probably the closest thing if you go the mind scan route.  The only other thing I could think of would be clairsentience for the radio group, but that means you still need a way to pick up the transmissions. Doing it with mind scan seems like really bad way to do it.    

[unclevlad]

I never listed a focus.  It's innate.

 

Tracking...cell phones move.  With Tracking, you know where it *is*, and how it's moving, in this context.

 

Quote

A sense with this Sense Modifier, which is most often bought for the Smell/Taste Group, can be used to identify and track a person or object if the character makes a PER Roll. Modifiers for time and circumstances can affect the PER Roll tremendously

 

It might be a bit of overlap with Targeting, but it's specifically built to follow something moving.  And with Tracking and Targeting, I can reasonably say I know where the phone is very accurately.  

 

The "mind scan" was never alone, it was always combined with the HRRH.  The mind scan was very specifically ONLY to nail down the specific phone, walkie-talkie, or whatever.  

[Grailknight]

That final version looks good to me. I might add 1 more level of Rapid if it's going to be used in large cities. 

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Grailknight said:

That final version looks good to me. I might add 1 more level of Rapid if it's going to be used in large cities. 

 

Maybe.  I've waffled on it.  Mind scan doesn't require anything like it...and there's also the bonus to PER, to offset the number of sources...+10 is Large Town.  It'd be at -2 for a large city.  This suggests it works fairly quickly, just to do this level.  Another level of Rapid also can support being able to read high-speed comms as well.  It's not like, say, Microscopic levels of Sight, where we can directly interpret it.  We can't.  It comes down to what feels right, and sometimes some other things...like, if you slap a big Focus limit?  Then maybe get harsher with respect to things like Rapid.