Combined Attack or Multiple Attack?

[greysword]

Let's say we have a character named Hot Lead, who is a gun collector.  Hot Lead acquired the dueling pistols used by Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr, and took them on night patrol.  The pistols are built as 1d6 RKA Quantity: 2.

 

1) Is this considered one power or two powers due to the quantity?

 

Later that evening, Hot Lead confronts Foxbat (because, which villain would find it more exciting to be shot at by the pair of historical relics than Foxbat?) and draws the pistols (one in the left hand and one in the right). 

 

2) When firing at one target, is this considered a Combined Attack or a Multiple Attack?

 

Champions Complete says this about the Strike combat maneuver:

Quote

A character can include multiple forms of Strike attacks into a single Strike, made with a single Attack Roll against a single target. This is known as a Combined Attack. For example, a character could simultaneously Blast and Flash an enemy in a Combined Attack. As with Multiple Attack, the GM should forbid any Combined Attack that he feels defies common or dramatic sense.

 

3) Because they are quantity 2, is the damage 1d6 RKA, 1d6+1d6 RKA (with damage adjudicated separately), or is this a single roll of 2d6 RKA?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

 - Chris B.

 

Edited February 4 by greysword

[Chris Goodwin]

1.  Two separate powers... but the additional detail in 6e2 specifies that these would be a Multiple Attack rather than a Combined Attack.

 

2.  This would more properly be a Multiple Attack; a Combined Attack would be something like attacking with a Blast and a Flash that are built as separate powers.  6e2 p. 73 goes into a lot more detail than Champions Complete.

 

3. That would be 1d6+1d6 adjudicated separately.  👍

 

The 5 point doubling rule for Foci freely allows them to be used for Multiple Attacks and Two Weapon Fighting; 6e2 p. 181 talks about it more.

Edited February 4 by Chris Goodwin
Answering all the questions, giving the correct answers this time.

[greysword]

Thanks Chris!

[unclevlad]

We had an extended discussion on this.  In 6E, there really isn't a large mechanical advantage to the x2 mechanism, on attack powers.  Other powers?  Oh, sure.  But with attack powers...multiple attack can be done with 1 weapon.  OK, it can effectively mean you double your clip size, by shooting from 2 separate clips, but that's about it.  There's Two Weapons Fighting and Off Hand Defense is another example.  If the powers are foci, you get a backup weapon, should one get disarmed.

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, greysword said:

Thanks Chris!

 

Combined attack would be if, for instance, a sorcerer who is also a fencer, were to attack with the flat of his sword while channeling a lightning bolt down the blade. 

[LoneWolf]

The way it is described in the OP would be a multiple attack, but it could be bought as a combined attack.  If you bought a 1d6 RKA and linked a second 1d6 RKA to the first, that would be a combined attack. You could not use the +5-point doubling rule for this and would need to buy the second RKA at full cost.  

 

What that would mean is that if you hit you roll the damage for each attack and the targets defenses would be applied fully to each attack.   

The thing to keep in mind is that with the Hero System there is usually more than one way to build any power.  Some ways of building them are more efficient so those are usually used, but that does not mean they are the only way.  I would not recommend purchasing the above power even though it is a legal power.  A better way to build the above power would be to buy a 2d6 RKA with the limitation reduced penetration.

 

Buying it as a 1d6 RKA and using the +5 to get an extra attack would allow you to use the two weapon fighting rules, but those modify your combat values.  Normally using multiple attack is a full round action that reduces your DCV to half and takes a -2 OCV for each attack past the first one on all attacks.  There are skills that can alter some of these, but they cost points.  Two weapon fighting using multiple attack rules are more common in heroic games than in champions games.  If a Champions character wants to use two weapons, they often build the attack that way from the beginning.   
 

[greysword]

Ok, I'll come clean.  I was just using that as a simple example.  My real motivation was designing the lasers for an X-Wing starfighter or TIE Interceptor.

 

I built it as a straight RKA with the "special effect" being that the lasers all fire to get the full damage.  I also added Autofire to simulate the rapid blasts we see on-screen.  This is the simplest way to reflect it.  

 

However, I was (over) thinking that if the power had an increased quantity (4 for X-Wing & Interceptor, 2 for a regular TIE fighter), then they might be able to do a "combined" attack (one laser does normal damage, two (from opposite wings) do two sets of damage, and combining all four lasers on a single point is just wicked). 

 

I'll keep it with the simple part, though, since which lasers fire when can just be a special effect (Luke pulls the trigger and we hear several blasts come out).

 

Thanks for clearing this up!

[Chris Goodwin]

I still haven't taken the time to do any of that design work, not even to work out scale issues (i.e. hand weapons vs. ships, snubfighter weapons vs. capital ships, etc.).  I appreciate any and all of this!

[LoneWolf]

Using a single larger attack for the X-wing is going to be more effective against another ship. With a multiple attack each hit goes against the full DEF of the target.  The points for doubling are also added after limitations so you don’t get the limitations on those points.  this is a very inefficient way to damage a target.  The way Hero System works once you can damage the target the best way to increase the damage is with more dice, not more hits.  A single large dice attack is usually a lot more effective than multiple smaller hits unless you can ignore the targets defenses.    

[unclevlad]

And Hero is SFX-agnostic...so there are all kinds of ways to buy the X Wing.  IIRC, tho, it's NOT 4x individual turbo lasers, because they all fire at once, all the time.  It's easier to call that Autofire...not Multiple Attack.  Another option is to call it a single, simple attack, with an OCV bonus.  Either of these would be appropriate for, say, X Wing vs. Tie combats.  Firing against a larger ship where all the beams are gonna hit or miss most of the time, then call it additional damage.  

 

The Millenium Falcon's guns run differently.  Those were, IIRC, paired batteries that alternated fire.  And I could easily be wrong about the X Wing's fire modes, it's been a LONG time.....