GrimJesta Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 I cant, for the life of me, remember all of the "classes" of characters for the Hero System. I remember Brick, Mentalist, and Martial Artist, but I know that there are way more types of characters for the game. I know they arent classes, but more like niches for characters to fill, created to let you know which types of powers you need to fill to have a well-rounded superheroic team or adventuring party. Does anyone remember the offical niches/classes? Brick... Mentalist... Martial Artist... and... uh...um... ARGH! -=Grim=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kolava Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Brick, speedster, mentalist, energy projecter, martial artist and..uh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Champions lists and discusses the Archetypes as follows: Brick Energy Projector Gadgeteer Martial Artist Mentalist Metamorph Mystic Patriot Power Armor Speedster Weaponmaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Here's my take on the matter: Theme: ===== The source of a codename and costume. Theme can be related to other aspects of a character, but for many characters, such as Batman and Captain America, theme is more or less what defines their character. Both of them are more or less highly trained martial artist types, and Batman uses a range of gadgets, but what makes Batman distinctive is the costume and theme to his equipment. Totem/Archetype Batman is one, and for that matter so is the Black Knight. Archetypes in this case are archetypes of certain professions, such as knight or magician. In all cases these are things that naturally lend themselves to physical manifestations. Concept/Mission Captain America is the embodiment of the Patriotism theme, and the Punisher is a mission statement. Technically you might consder them totems or archetypes but they're a bit more abstract. A bat has a concrete manifestation as does a knight. Power/Skills Green Lantern is an example of powers. The Karate Kid is another. A lot of heroes these days tend to be named after their powers. It's not always a literal description. Cannonball is more of how he used his powers, rather than as a literal description of them. Superlative/Descriptive Mister Fantastic and Superman are here, as are Doctor Strange and Doctor Fate. The Hulk and the Thing are more descriptive, but they're also superlatives in a very negative fashion. Power Origin: ========== This is where the powers come from. Powered armor is a power origin, not a description of what the power armor can do. Most powered armor tends to be a brick, energy projector or some hybrid of the two, but in theory there is nothing preventing one from building a speedster based on powered armor. The Jackie Chan movie Tuxedo is an example of someone who is a martial artist based on powered armor, something I didn't think could be done before. Innate Biological Altered human (induced mutant) Mutant (natal mutant) Nonhuman Hybrid Races (half-human) Innate Mystic Innate Technological Cyborg Android External Technological Powered armor Gadgets External Mystic Magical costumes/armor Mystic talismans/weapons External Biological is in theory a category, pretty rare. There are also characters who are combinations of the above. Power Type: ========= Here's where you get to bricks, blasters and suchlike. The exact types of powers and their skills fall into place here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarf Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 How is patriot a fundamental archetype? I can only think of one off the top of my head and I don't see how Captain America is essential to a super-team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Snarf How is patriot a fundamental archetype? I can only think of one off the top of my head and I don't see how Captain America is essential to a super-team. The archetypes do not state they are essential to a team. An Energy Blaster or Mystic is not essential to a team. It is just a style of character which encompasses all the "Captain" something characters in the comics as well as certain other patriot characters along the lines of Superman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarf Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith The archetypes do not state they are essential to a team. An Energy Blaster or Mystic is not essential to a team. It is just a style of character which encompasses all the "Captain" something characters in the comics as well as certain other patriot characters along the lines of Superman. Ohhhh it all becomes clear. Superman huh? I guess he quadruple classes brick/energy projector/speedster/patriot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Snarf Ohhhh it all becomes clear. Superman huh? I guess he quadruple classes brick/energy projector/speedster/patriot. With the possible exception of Batman, just about every character from the 40's was more or less a Patriot. Look also at the very strong Cold War roots of the Fantastic Four and Iron Man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Snarf Ohhhh it all becomes clear. Superman huh? I guess he quadruple classes brick/energy projector/speedster/patriot. Yeah, but in modern comics many characters encompass more than one archetype. I would say that it is much more uncommon to find a single archetype character in comics today than it is to find a multiple-archetype character. The main thing to me would be to pick the character's main archetype and build from there. Hawkeye, for example, is a Weaponmaster. His bow is what he is all about. He knows some martial arts, but they are not essential to his character concept. The same goes for Ironman and his Power Armor, even though he does has some martial arts skill and can build a gadget from time to time. There has been some debate in the past whether or not Patriot is a valid archetype, but I think a character like Captain America would be a Patriot whether he used martial arts or could shoot beams from his nose. The core of Cap is his patriotism not the powers he uses. To me that is what emcompasses what the Patriot archetype is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebar Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Patriot - a character archetype, not a powers archetype Metamorph - this tends be a subset of brick, but that's a little too broad a brush Mystic - technically, this is an SFX archetype - almost always falls under EP (then again, that would describe gadgeteers as well) Power Armour - again, an SFX archetype, powers-wise it's usually a brick/EP cross One archetype that I've always thought belonged was the Slasher (Wolverine, swordsman, etc.). I've never thought it belonged under the brick or MA archetypes. Now you were actually asking about rounding out a team, which is a different can of wax. Regardless of their power archetypes, there are abilities any team needs to be well-rounded: Leader Brute Strength Brute Defense Ranged attacks Senses Mentalist Non-combat and/or mass transportation Skills Power archetypes or no, if you are missing one of these, you may soon find your team sojuorning the stream sans sculler. Can't think of any others offhand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Originally posted by Rebar One archetype that I've always thought belonged was the Slasher (Wolverine, swordsman, etc.). I've never thought it belonged under the brick or MA archetypes. I believe that would fit under weaponmaster, as they both use weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Originally posted by Snarf Ohhhh it all becomes clear. Superman huh? I guess he quadruple classes brick/energy projector/speedster/patriot. He's a Patriot of Truth Justice and the American Way. Patriot seems to be Steve's funny way of saying Avatar, or "ultimate expression of a concept". I don't believe Patriot has jack all to do with actual patriotism. Captain America is the Patriot of "the triumph of the American common man." In that regard, the powers of a Patriot in some way should reflect the concept he's expressing. Captain America is at the peak of human ability, but not beyond, because he's the "common man". He has great training, and some stuff, because that's "common". But, he can't shoot forcebeams out of his nose because that's not common. Superman is "Truth Justice and the American way" and so, has a tremendously powerful and versatile suite of powers because that supports the American Way. Batman could be considered the Patriot of Vengeance in some incarnations, or the Patriot of Ingenuity in others. And Rebar's right, it's a character archetype, not a powers one. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Back to the original topic: Archtypes are not that nessesary for a team, what is needed is roles: Artillery: Long range combat, Using the Archtypes in Champions the Weapon Master (Ranged), Blasters, Mystics, Power Armor will be the common archtypes to fill this niche Infantry: Close Range Combat, Bricks, Martial Artists, Weapons Masters (Melee) will all fill this niche Command: Anyone can fill this, but it seems to fall on Bricks & Martial Artists most often Support: This is one that most teams share, Healers, Communications, Transprtation, Intelegence. Usualy this will be something a few of the characters do, for instance usualy the whole team will either have there own transport or chip in for one. However Mentalists excell at Intelegence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 There are two distinct ways to look at archetypes or classes, and they depend on what you're looking to accomplish. When you're looking to balance a character set, you need to look at what characters do. This is important if you're playing in a setting that is all-encompassing and all inclusive. The Legion of Super Heroes is a good example. They don't care how you do things as long as what you do is unique. So if you're looking at archetypes or classes in this light, then you're going to focus on the functional groupings. HtH vs Ranged, CV high, DC low vs CV low, DC high. Active defenses vs passive defenses and so on. When I look to classify characters in this light, I look at a brick and say: CV -, DC +, SPD -, Def +. Martial artists are pretty much the opposite, with CV +, DC -, SPD +, Def -. Then when you're looking to shape a campaign, you have to look at archetypes and classes in an entirely different light. Let's say you're trying to run a campaign based on one type of sfx like the Blood or mutants. Then you're not going to be so interested in powered armored suits or self trained martial artists. In this case, you're going to want to exclude certain archetypes or require certain ones. Also, if you're looking to tell a certain type of story, then you're probably going to need to enforce or exclude certain things. Hard to tell a story about struggling to make ends meet when half of your PCs have bought wealth and one is a Tony Stark clone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebar Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 >>Slasher (Wolverine, swordsman, etc.). >I believe that would fit under weaponmaster, as they both use weapons. Well, OK, the swordsman not so good example. Wolvie still a Weaponmaster tho? I suppose... >Captain America is at the peak of human ability, but not beyond... I thought the super serum actually pushed him beyond NCMs. >Command: Anyone can fill this, but it seems to fall on Bricks & Martial Artists most often It would surprise me if it fell to one archetype more than any other. It is not so in my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 *rummages through stuff* Back in 4th Edition, I created a 'character tree' ... a kind of chart that had every archetype I could think of in a branching layout, with 'overtypes' and 'subtypes' and all that ... *rummagerummage* Ah, HERE it is! BRICK: Character who does HTH damage via high strength. >>Flying Brick: A brick with aerial movement. >>Locomotive: A brick who uses move-throughs and move-bys. >>GroundPounder: A brick with little extra movement. ENERGY PROJECTOR: Deals damage at range >>Bolt Thrower: Projects attacks against ED or Special Def. >>Psionic: Projects attacks against Ego/Mental Def. >>Sharpshooter: Attacks against PD MARTIAL ARTIST: Deals damage in HTH without a high STR. >>Speedster: Deals damage primarily through velocity. >>Karate Kid: Uses Martial Arts Maneuvers to boost damage. >>Slasher: Uses a HTH Killing Attack. >>Zapper: Uses ED or Special Def attacks, but with No Range >>Clubber: Uses HTH Attack power for damage JACK OF ALL TRADES: Can combine the elements of multiple archetypes with approximately equal efficiency; characters with Power Pools frequently have this category. When mixing types (say, Daredevil, who has both Martial Arts and a HTH attack), primarily you're whichever gets you the biggest damage bonus. If DD's club is +2d6 and his Kick is +4d6, he's a Karate Kid (or Karate Kid/Clubber). Admittedly, in a LOT of cases, these archetypes are very vague and can overlap ... but, I think, they do an okay job of describing your character's abilities in a very basic way (Cheshire Cat is a Karate Kid, but that doesn't bring his teleporting into consideration). Add to that the way that people try to make unique (or sometimes just oddball) characters, and creating a complete archetype list simply becomes a fool's errand (no offense). I agree that the roles (above) are more important, especially in an RP (rather than combat) dynamic. But ... Just because I feel like it ... the FF! The Thing: GroundPounder Human Torch: Bolt Thrower Mr. Fantastic: Clubber (the Stretching damage) Invisible Woman: Jack of All Trades (way versatile) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Dave Mattingly did a rather involved write up of this concept a number of years ago; it can still be found here: http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym14.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimJesta Posted December 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Awesome fellaz. Thanks. Especially for that link. Its funny how once you see the answer to your question you suddenly wonder how you forgot it. Hhehhehe. Patriot eh? I guess captain Liberty in Freedom Force is another good example. A great video game, BTW... -=Grim=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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