How does Dr. Doom compare to Dr. Destroyer

[Kzinbane]

Galactus Vs Dr. Destroyer?

 

Hmm, let's see. If Galactus was almost dead from not having munched a planet in recent times he might actually say ouch when destroyer hit him with everything he had. As I recall every single hero (or almost) in the Marvel universe "hit" Galactus at a very low level and it took some serious work + a spell from Dr. Strange that made Galactus face all the beings he'd killed. Galactus then went down after a hit from Thing.

Galactus would probably not even pay attention to Dr. Destroyer - probably ignore him completely. I was amused when Ultron attacked Galactus at one point. Galactus just sucked the energy out of Ultron and ate it. Burp.

 

Doom on the other hand would find a way to take down Galactus just like Richards typically does.

 

Speaking of Ultron... His counterpart here in Champions land Mechanon is much more a copy than Destroyer is a copy of Doom. The earlier suggestion that Destroyer is more of a Red Skull + Doom hybrid seems about right.

 

I did recall one other "power" Doom had in his armor at one point. He had miniaturized boulders he could spray out and re-size to normal. This was from an old FF mag, I don't think he's used that trick for 25 years but it was a fun one...

[Vorsch]

Mighter than 30d6 attacks? okay his attacks can probabily affect more but 30d6 seems reasonable.

 

As has been noted on other threads DC and marvel power levels differ by orders of magnitude, champions started off as the marvel level 12dc attacks max, with master vilains on 15d6max.and has now incresed to destroyer and takofanes chucking around 30dc+, this is even in excess of DC levels where even superman is generally given str125 on these boards.

 

So Dr Destroyer who now exceeds Dc levels Vs Dr Doom who has never had a particulary powerful suit of armour by marvel standards( large gadget pool for specific threats but wasent even close to iron mans standard abilities) No contest

 

Destroyer out classes him by 15DC at least, and whatever Doom makes with his gadget pool so can destroyer cos his pool is large by marvel standeds but average by DCs.

[Kzinbane]

The main thing Doom's armor is for is protecting him. He's never really designed it for such mutli-purpose ala Iron man's armor. In the instance he fought Iron man to a stand still some years ago that was after Doom had had opportunity to tweak it knowing what he was going to be encountering.

Doom's armor + force field are mainly designed so he can surive and escape, the blasters and what have you being defensive. Doom doesn't typically bother with fighting if he can help it, and when he does he juices things up with his VPP gadgets based on what he's going up against (and he rarely doesn't know).

That's the good thing about being a super villain. You are pro-active, the super heroes having to react to you after you've made the opening move. If you're behind enough defenses (Doom bots or whatever) you have time to prepare for the heroes accordingly, and usually only trickery or using Doom's disadvantages can really let the heroes prevail.

Can you tell I'm a Dr. Doom fan? Heh heh.

[Vigil]

In defense of Doom

 

Hey Vorsch,

 

It seems like you've missed the point of Dr. Doom. Someone once posted an analysis of the Hulk on these boards which said that his real power was "to be stronger than anyone else in the MU" And Doom is the same way. His job is to be the most dire terrestrial threat that any group of heroes can face. So, in essence, Doom is as powerful as Doom needs to be to fill that role...kinda like Destroyer. Even in the HOTHMU it says that Doom's force field is strong enough to survive a point blank nuclear blast, which I think goes way beyond 30d6 and that's Doom at strolling in the park levels without augmenting his basic set up with his VPP Gadget Pool. Dealing with Doom then, is never a matter of just going in and outfighting him...if it's shown that way, the writer has missed the point. Even the FF have never beaten Doom cleanly in astricght up fight, it's their cohesiveness and strength of conviction that always carry the day.

 

I don't know but I'd say that Dr. Destroyer is really just a jacked up knock off of Doom and that were the two to meet Doom would give Destroyer the bitch slapping of his life. To do otherwise would be unlike Doom.

[Agent X]

Re: In defense of Doom

 

Originally posted by Vigil

Hey Vorsch,

 

It seems like you've missed the point of Dr. Doom. Someone once posted an analysis of the Hulk on these boards which said that his real power was "to be stronger than anyone else in the MU" And Doom is the same way. His job is to be the most dire terrestrial threat that any group of heroes can face. So, in essence, Doom is as powerful as Doom needs to be to fill that role...kinda like Destroyer. Even in the HOTHMU it says that Doom's force field is strong enough to survive a point blank nuclear blast, which I think goes way beyond 30d6 and that's Doom at strolling in the park levels without augmenting his basic set up with his VPP Gadget Pool. Dealing with Doom then, is never a matter of just going in and outfighting him...if it's shown that way, the writer has missed the point. Even the FF have never beaten Doom cleanly in astricght up fight, it's their cohesiveness and strength of conviction that always carry the day.

 

I don't know but I'd say that Dr. Destroyer is really just a jacked up knock off of Doom and that were the two to meet Doom would give Destroyer the bitch slapping of his life. To do otherwise would be unlike Doom.

That's got to be what? at least a 40PD/40ED double hardened Force Wall, with a lot of the Exotic Defenses as well, transparent to mental?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Re: In defense of Doom

 

Originally posted by Agent X

That's got to be what? at least a 40PD/40ED double hardened Force Wall, with a lot of the Exotic Defenses as well, transparent to mental?

 

Aka "Plot Device."

 

It sometimes sees use when Dr. Doom is expected to take on a whole team of top-flight supers, like the Avengers. I can't remember if Von Doom has ever used it against the Fantastic Four; certainly it hasn't appeared when Doom fights solo heroes.

 

How big it would have to be in Champions terms would depend on your interpretation of a nuclear blast, which varies widely around here. I'd be comfortable with what you describe above, but some nuke writeups I've seen (including "official" ones) would blow that down with scarcely a pause.

[Vigil]

blowed up real good...

 

Eureka, I found it!

 

The mention of a nuke got me to thinkign thatI'd actually seen one written up in Champions, and I did! It's in the Hero System Almanac #2 but for those of you don't have it here are the highlights of a ONE MEGATON NUCULEAR BOMB.

 

 

Note: I'm not going to include thelimitataions unless people really want them but they mostly cover duration etc. Plus I mentioned that in the OHOTHMU it says that Doom can survive at ground zero of a nuclear explosion so most of the limtiations are irrelevant anyways.

 

First Effect: 6d6 RKA AVLD (VS POWER DEFENSE), AE (ONE MILE), AFFECTS DESOLIDS, FULLY INVISIBLE PLUS 3D6 CON AND BODY DRAIN, AFFECTS DESOLID, AE (2 MILES), FULLY INVISIBLE

 

That was the basics. Now it gets good.

 

Second Effect: FLASH 8D6+1 MAJOR TRASFORM (EYES TO POOLS OF GOO), AE (50 MILES), AVLD (SIGHT GROUP FLASH DEFENSE), AFFECTS DESOLIDS

 

Now it gets really good...

 

Third Effect: THERMAL BLAST: 20D6 RKA AE (18 MILES)

 

Fourth Effect: EMP 6D6 RKA AE (12 MILES), FULLY INVISIBLE

 

look out here comes THE BLAST WAVE!

 

Fifth Effect: BLAST WAVE/STATIC OVERPRESSURE 20D6 RKA AE (10 MILES), INDIRECT (ALL PARTS OF AN OBJECT, +3/4) AND BLAST WAVE/WINDS 20D6 RKA AE (10 MILES) DOUBLE KNOCKBACK

 

Sixth Effect: NEGATIVE PRESSURE 3D6 RKA AE (10 MILES)

 

what only 3d6 RKA ?...it's like a spring shower!

 

Seventh Effect: FIRESTORM: 10D6 AID (HALF TO THE RKA OF ANY FIRES, HALF TO THE AID) UNCONTROLLED, CONTINUOUS, AE (1.25 MILES).

 

Eight Effect: NUCLEAR WINTER - ESSENTIALLY SFX AND A BIG CHANGE ENVIRONMENT.

 

So that's a nuke in a nutshell.

 

If Doom's force field can survive that, I don't think he's in much dnager from Destroyer's 150 point MP.

 

Now, to me, this kind of nuke seems way over the top but that's the way it's written up.

 

Food for thought anyway.

 

Vigil

[Lord Liaden]

And that writeup was by Steve Long IIRC. You just have to look at some of the other weapons he's designed to see that he isn't stingy with the DCs... he likes to blow stuff up real good.

[Vigil]

yep...done blowed up real good...just like Wendy O Williams!

[Vorsch]

Okay back to the doom destroyer contest, doom stole the power of the silver surfer, a top end hero along with Thor, this made him "virtually a God" compared to his previous abilities. As i rate doom at about 10dc and the siver surfer at about 20 dc (1000x more powerful) ps ( a good match for firewing ) then he is still outclassed by the adsurdly powerful Dr Destroyer.

 

also using transform for what is merely the effects of damage is silly.

 

A variety of comic heroes are known to be able to withstand a nuclear blast, Silver surfer, superman, not thor and not Hulk its stated in his background somewhere.

[Monolith]

I do not believe Dr. Doom is all that tough. His major foe is the FF, and most of them do less than 15d6. Dr. Doom's major ability is to make mega-plot devices which he then unleashes on the world at large. If I were building Dr. Doom he would probably be:

 

25 rPD/ED through a non-Focused power-armor suit just like Dr. Destroyer.

+15 PD/ED FF

18d6 EB

70 pt Magic Pool

150 pt Gadget Pool

 

Dr. Doom is tough but Dr. Destroyer is alread in that Silver Surfer range.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

I do not believe Dr. Doom is all that tough. His major foe is the FF, and most of them do less than 15d6. Dr. Doom's major ability is to make mega-plot devices which he then unleashes on the world at large. If I were building Dr. Doom he would probably be:

 

25 rPD/ED through a non-Focused power-armor suit just like Dr. Destroyer.

+15 PD/ED FF

18d6 EB

70 pt Magic Pool

150 pt Gadget Pool

 

Dr. Doom is tough but Dr. Destroyer is alread in that Silver Surfer range.

In the old article from the Adventurer's Club that converted Marvel to Champions, I believe that a monstrous strength rated a range that included strength a little higher than 75. I think, in 4th Edition, I placed the Thing with an 89 Strength. On top of which he had 4-6 overall combat skill levels because of the difference between his Fighting and his Agility. He also had Boxing and Wrestling. I'm thinking, if The Thing is not worried about raising his OCV, that he can use martial arts and skill levels to bring his knockout punch up to about 22d6.

 

The Human Torch could routinely produce an unearthly ranged attack which converted to about 95-110 active points that directly translate into Damage Classes. I would put him at the top end of that from some of the things I have seen. That gives him a 22d6 or 7d6+1K attack. His "Nova" flame is a one shot wonder that's Class 1000! and would be roughly equivalent to a small nuclear explosion. He's got a "Nova" flame that's probably something like 10-12d6 RKA, IMO.

 

So, not counting the "Nova" Flame, we've got two of the team that can produce 20+ Damage Class Attacks.

 

Silver Surfer is running around with a 100+ Point Cosmic Power Pool. That's plenty scary, especially with his high characteristics, but if he isn't using it right, the Torch or the Thing (if he could get near him) could do some damage.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X

So, not counting the "Nova" Flame, we've got two of the team that can produce 20+ Damage Class Attacks.

I would give the Thing an 80 STR and some wrestling martial arts. I would not give the Human Torch more than a 15d6/5d6 RKA, but I would give him larger than that dispel/telekinesis flame ability. The nova flame is an exception. Reed is probably in the 8-10d6 range and Sue is probably in the 12-14d6 range. Overall I think the FF are pretty close to a standard Champions group as far as power levels. I think they have just developed more power stunts over the years. I would probably give Silver Surfer a 150 point Cosmic Power Pool.

[Kzinbane]

Doom's force field is something he rarely uses and even then only for a very limited time. As such I'd say that even if it'll stop an A-bomb it probably is VERY high in END or has limited charges or something else.

If I remember right I have seen him stand and laugh as the thing hay-maker hit him, but the thing is always off again very soon.

As said above - Doom is the ultimate bad guy in Marvel. He's designed to out-do anyone else - leader, Mandarin, Ultron - and even be a big threat to such ultra entities as Galactus or Thanos due to what he could whip up in his work shop.

 

Doom is Doom, all others are secondary to him. (I think that is a direct quote from the guy)

[Vigil]

From reading some of the comments, I think that what's happening here is that several people are completely misunderstanding the power levels of Marvel characters in general and Doom in particular.

 

There were some excellent write ups of The Silver Surfer which I will try to find and post for you here to give some sort of enchmark to go by. If I recall correctly, the Surfer had a 16 or 18d6 EB with a +2/34 Variable Advantage...this was before megascale and the author wanted to make the advantage large enough for the Surfer to cover entire cities with his EB. Plus he then had his Aid, and I think a VPP etc to augment his abilities further.

 

There are some good write ups of the FF in TGNBORH and I think there's a link around here somewhere for it. I think that Mitchell Santorenios' write ups are pretty good and consistent but I think he severly underestimates several of the FF's abilities...most notably only giving Reed 8" of Stretching! What the! I think something along the line of 30"+ combat is more appropriate.

 

Somewhere here, someone mentioned, absurdly enough, that Dr. Destroyer was on the level of Galactus. I'll try to find the write up for him that was posted in aprevious thread...and Liaden you're the expert at finding such things so your help would be appreciated once again...thanks in advance. Anyway, check out the Galactus write up. If I recall correctly he has 4 425point VPPs on top of his basic stuff. Destroyer wouldn't even make a dent...or be noticed at all.

 

As for Doom...well I posted Steve Long's stats for a one megaton nuclear explosion a little earlier. It seems to me that Doom's force field would have to somewhere in the 80rPD/80rED range with additional goodies like 20 - 30" of KBR and probably 50 points of rPower defense, hardened to even begin to survive such a blast. I think the reason why Doom doesn't always use his force field is that it makes things too easy for him and he wants to feel that he's being challenged. I think that with his ff up, Destroyer would have a virtually impossible time doing any real dmaage to Doom and Doom could then dispose of him at his leisure. Remeber Destroyer is tough but Doom is the original that Destroyer was based on and you gotta go with the inspiration, not the copy.

 

Vigil

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Vigil

From reading some of the comments, I think that what's happening here is that several people are completely misunderstanding the power levels of Marvel characters in general and Doom in particular.

I do not think anyone is underestimating the power levels of the FF or of Dr. Doom. If you look at the "official" DOJ write-up for the Hulk I think you see a pretty good understanding of the power level of the characters. Dr. Destroyer is based off of Dr. Doom, but I think the 3E or 4E version are much closer to Dr. Doom than the 5E version is. The 5E version is over the top and basically cosmic power level.

[Lord Liaden]

As per your request, Vigil...

 

Here are the links to the great old CHARACTER STRING thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434.html

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434-2.html

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434-3.html

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434-4.html

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434-5.html

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434-6.html

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434-7.html

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434-8.html

 

The writeups for both the Silver Surfer and Galactus are on the first page. No Dr. Doom stats, I'm afraid, but the same page has notes on converting the old Marvel SAGA and DCU RPGs to Champions, so that might help with porting Doom over more directly.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

I do not think anyone is underestimating the power levels of the FF or of Dr. Doom. If you look at the "official" DOJ write-up for the Hulk I think you see a pretty good understanding of the power level of the characters. Dr. Destroyer is based off of Dr. Doom, but I think the 3E or 4E version are much closer to Dr. Doom than the 5E version is. The 5E version is over the top and basically cosmic power level.

I didn't think the Hulk was strong enough in the "official" DOJ writeup. They needed to add about 20 more strength to him.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X

I didn't think the Hulk was strong enough in the "official" DOJ writeup. They needed to add about 20 more strength to him.

 

I'm inclined to agree. I would have started him out with STR 90; the Aid to his STR when Enraged would max out at STR 150, up there with Dr. Destroyer's largest DC attack. I would also have broadened the Aid to apply to the Hulk's Endurance (he never seems to tire when he gets mad), and to his "Strength Tricks" Multipower.

 

I'm grafting these elements and a few other bits from the Hulk writeup onto Grond for my campaign. It lets me tailor him to the level of threat my players are up for depending on when they encounter him: before his rage kicks in, so that a team of Standard Superheroes can beat him if they strike fast and hard; or after he's already been raging for a while and his power has built up. The same basic premise would work for the official Hulk, as well.

[Monolith]

I personally don't think the Hulk is that strong. In his calm state many "lessor" bricks like Doc Samson (60 STR), Ironman (65), and Submariner (70 STR) have no trouble going toe-to-toe with him. It is when the rage starts to kick in that tougher bricks such as the Thing (80), Silver Surfer (90), or Thor (95) are needed to hold him off, imo.

 

The numbers within ( ) are what I would rate those character's STR as.

[Vigil]

I have to agree with Liaden

 

To give the Hulk, even a "calm" Hulk a STR 60 is disingenuous if not insulting. The Hulk is supposed to be Strength personified...and 60 doesn't personify STR in any but the lowest level Champions campaigns.

 

The way I convert STR from the OHOTMU to Champions is that, up to STR 50 I take the amount the charcater is supposed to be able to lift or press and track it straight across...so Spider-Man can lift 10 tonnes...that's STR 44, Doc Samson can lift 25 tonnes, that's STR 50.

 

When STR scores get up into the lift/press 50 tonnes range (STR 55, Rogue for example) I then correlate the STR score staright across with the tonnage lifted. For example, it says Colossus can lift/press 70 tonnes. Rather than give him a STR 57 (which is luaghable for any true brick) I give him a STR 70, which makes sense. By this system, the Hulk, in his calm state (and the Silver Surfer unaugmented by his cosmic power as well) has a STR 90, not STR 59. With characters in the Class 100 range it becomes a bit of a judgement call but even then, with a little thought the traisn run on time. By my calculations, Thor would have a STR 110, Superman a 120 (maybe up to 130), Wonderman 100, Hercules 110, and an angry Hulk up to around 140 or so. Then there's guys like Gladiator who would have a base STR around 100 but can lift an extra 50 STR or so.

 

 

Were you to translate the OHOTMU STR scores right across you'd end up with a system where Rogue has a STR 55, Attuma STR 56, Colossus STR 57, Thing STR 58, calm Hulk STR 59 and Thor STR 60. And that makes no sense at all. To say that Thor does only 1d6 more damage than Rogue is absolutely moronic and shows a complete lack of understanding of the spirit of the charcters involved!

 

 

Anyway, that's my rant for now. What I'm trying to express is the fact that rather than pigeon hole characters into some sort of artificial 60 point active point total, take a look at the character and how they relate to others and go from there. For me, in the above, I'd used Colossus as a baseline (since he's fairly simple to chart out) and scaled from there.

 

Vigil

[Monolith]

Re: I have to agree with Liaden

 

Originally posted by Vigil

To give the Hulk, even a "calm" Hulk is disingenuous if not insulting. The Hulk is supposed to be Strength personified...and 60 doesn't personify STR in any but the lowest level Champions campaigns.

No one said the Hulk had a 60 STR.

 

The way I convert STR from the OHOTMU to Champions is that, up to STR 50 I take the amount the charcater is supposed to be able to lift or press and track it straight across...so Spider-Man can lift 10 tonnes...that's STR 44, Doc Samson can lift 25 tonnes, that's STR 50.

I do not convert characters using the Marvel scale into the HERO System. But I do use those numbers listed as a baseline for who is stronger than who. Anyone who thinks Thor has a 60 STR would be foolish in my eyes.

[Vorsch]

Would you view the DC and Marvel supers to be in the same power range, cos one thing i liked about Marvel was that the characters were seldom above heavy military technology(real ) like tanks and missiles, while DCs Heroes were completel immune to all conventional weapons.

 

Wile i agree that direct translations are difficult i would not put thors str at110 , 1000 times that of doc smpson who regularls fight the Hulk.

 

Vigil you seem to be metagaming a bit, difference between str 57 and 60 is 50% stronger, not insignificant in the whos stronger game. Champions is simply not finely grained enough to reflect 50% str increse as having an effect on combat. This is due to x2 str only giving +1d6.

 

This had lead to absurdly powerful characters ( Dr D Tak) in some kind of DC arms race and to hell with what these kinds of numbers would represent in comic worlds.

[Guardian]

Lord Liaden -

Thanks for that research on finding the old character write-ups. It really gave me a better idea as to how the different Marvel characters compare in Champions terms.

 

Monolith -

I appreciate your estimation on Doom's damage classes and defenses. I never really intended this thread as another "character vs character battle", but I just wanted to know how to adjust Destroyer's published character sheet to better represent the classic Victor von Doom.

 

Everbody's input was helpful, in that I now have a much better idea of how to role-play the good Doctor and his nefarious schemes.

 

- Guardian -

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Vorsch

Would you view the DC and Marvel supers to be in the same power range, cos one thing i liked about Marvel was that the characters were seldom above heavy military technology(real ) like tanks and missiles, while DCs Heroes were completel immune to all conventional weapons.

 

Wile i agree that direct translations are difficult i would not put thors str at110 , 1000 times that of doc smpson who regularls fight the Hulk.

 

Vigil you seem to be metagaming a bit, difference between str 57 and 60 is 50% stronger, not insignificant in the whos stronger game. Champions is simply not finely grained enough to reflect 50% str increse as having an effect on combat. This is due to x2 str only giving +1d6.

 

This had lead to absurdly powerful characters ( Dr D Tak) in some kind of DC arms race and to hell with what these kinds of numbers would represent in comic worlds.

I would put Thor's strength at 110. What Doc Samson are we talking about? Short hair? Long hair? Something from the 90s or new milennium I know nothing about?

 

Doc Samson's not exactly the character that's going to define where things need to be in Marvel Hero Designs.

 

There needs to be a range in power for heroes and villains. Having everybody run around 10-18 dice is just not wide enough, at least if you want to come close to simulating comic books. My complaint in the Champions Universe is that there aren't any examples of heroic icons who can stand against Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes without a dozen heroes of backup. I don't mind the idea that DD and TAK require more than one hero to fight them. I mind that it apparently takes dozens.