Linear Lift, STR modification for Non-Superpowered games.

[Outsider]

The HERO Stystem was designed, first and foremost, as a game that would support

roleplaying in the comic book "Super" genre. Given this, it is quite right and proper to have

characters be able to lift cars, tanks and other very heavy objects. For a grittier, more real

world feel, though, I find that having a character's lifting ability progress geometrically in relation

to the linear increase in his STR stat to be troublesome. Under standard Hero rules, for

example, a character with 20 STR can, with a full push, pick up a Honda Civic and -throw it- a

short distance! In order to rectify this, I have altered the lift table to progress linearly in relation

to the linear increase in the STR stat. For every pip of STR the character has, he may lift

10Kg. Growth, Density Increase, and Pushng still increase lift geometrically, doubling it for

each level. Pushing in Heroic games, however, is success/failure only, meaning that the

character may double his lift via it, but never more than that.

 

 

 

[austenandrews]

Interesting. I wonder what STR that makes the average heavyweight boxer? Bodybuilder? Lineman? What about the world-class powerlifters? Anybody know some numbers?

 

Nice idea. Simple. I may consider it for my fantasy game.

 

-AA

[Hierax]

Outsider, I agree with you 100%.

 

I never could see HERO STR as non-linear since the Damage is clearly linear, and giving reasonable STR to characters based on the super-Champions biased lifting tables would only decrease the variety/range/granularity of STR in the game and keeping the stats confined to that narrow of a range really didn't sit well with me, so I don't use the non-linear STR, but haven't actually bothered to make up a replacement, so I'm quite glad to see how you handle this!

 

Always good to see things from a fresh perspective. Thanks!

[gewing]

Good to see you post these topics, Kurt, now you should give a brief rundown of your fantasy world. A few of the "highlights" (or is that lowlights in my case?) might be enjoyed. I have posted a few of "Big John's" experiences.

 

I think your dopplegangers would scare people off in a hurry. "_

[Eosin]

I agree with this premise and like its simplicity. I think it is hereby stolen.

[Killer Shrike]

I would just like to point out that STR represents what a character can barely get off the ground and stagger a few steps with.

 

Also, with Pushing, the 6th point listed on page 287 applies here. Pushing is only for crucial, heroic, or life-saving actions.

 

Totally beside the point, I personally see Pushing as a failure on the part of either the players (to handle a situation better b4 it gets to the point that a character HAS to push), or the GM (miscalculating the challenge and putting the PCs in a situation they cant reasonably deal with). I almost never allow a push. I certainly wouldnt allow it for a character to attempt to toss a car just bcs.

[Eosin]

That is only part of the story. They can also casually carry around thier casual strength - or 220 lbs for a 20 strength character. I like to believe that there are very, very few people on this earth who can casually carry me around [Few, as in no one!!]

 

I require ego rolls for pushing in my games but it is not uncommon to see a character push once every other game, perhaps more if the combat is tight. Pushing really depends on the fight....I consider it a failure if the players don't push during a climactic battle. As long as the DM uses pushing commensurate with the PCs and in the appropriate situations, than all is good.

 

We have always operated under a different lift chart but I like the fantasy/heroic version proposed. It solves some really queer numbers problems.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Eosin

That is only part of the story. They can also casually carry around thier casual strength - or 220 lbs for a 20 strength character.

And be encumbered in the process, suffereing -3 DEX Rolls & DCV, -2" of movement, and (optionally) takes 2 Long Term END loss each hour.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Eosin

That is only part of the story. They can also casually carry around thier casual strength - or 220 lbs for a 20 strength character.

Granted....its still pretty absurd to think that even a "Worlds Strongest" beef monkey could casual 220lbs around

[Outsider]

Hmm.. my (out of date) 4th edition rules shows 100 kilos of encumberance as -5 Dex/DCV, and 2 END/Turn for a 20 str character.

 

No long term loss of End, though, assuming he has at least a 5 recovery (not hard with a 20 str)

 

 

I would rule that for his burden to count as -just- encumberance, it would have to be in some sort of backpack like arrangement. Otherwise, he'd be lifting you each phase in addition to being encumbered by you each turn.

 

At that point, spending 2 END/phase + 2 END/Turn, he does take LTE losses pretty fast. Even dropping to speed 1 voluntarily, he'd be using 4 END/Turn, meaning 1 LTE/5 minutes.

 

A great big Meat Monkey carrying an extra 220 lbs in a decently designed backpack for some length of time isnt that unreasonable, IMO. Military guys may not -like- it, but they routinely carrying half that for long periods, from what I hear. (this is presuming that the military guys are more "normal" in their STR rating)

 

 

 

 

[gewing]

I hate to think how much some of my characters have lugged around.

 

I even notice my 10 lb fleece jacket...

 

 

 

Originally posted by Outsider

Hmm.. my (out of date) 4th edition rules shows 100 kilos of encumberance as -5 Dex/DCV, and 2 END/Turn for a 20 str character.

 

No long term loss of End, though, assuming he has at least a 5 recovery (not hard with a 20 str)

 

 

I would rule that for his burden to count as -just- encumberance, it would have to be in some sort of backpack like arrangement. Otherwise, he'd be lifting you each phase in addition to being encumbered by you each turn.

 

At that point, spending 2 END/phase + 2 END/Turn, he does take LTE losses pretty fast. Even dropping to speed 1 voluntarily, he'd be using 4 END/Turn, meaning 1 LTE/5 minutes.

 

A great big Meat Monkey carrying an extra 220 lbs in a decently designed backpack for some length of time isnt that unreasonable, IMO. Military guys may not -like- it, but they routinely carrying half that for long periods, from what I hear. (this is presuming that the military guys are more "normal" in their STR rating)

[Legendsmiths]

Base encumberance off casual STR and charge 2pts per point of STR and the problem "goes away". This is no more extreme than coming up with a linear STR chart.

 

I think the Hero STR chart works fine for normals, even in a heroic game, as long as the STR is 2pts per. 23 STR is about world record level for deadlift, and at double cost (something suggested in FRED), that would be 26 points... definitely not something your typicaly normal or even competent hero can afford, but not out of reach if that is your schtick.

[Solomon]

Using a linear, "10 Kg per point" progression puts Olympic weightlifters at 45+ STR. A strong man, even if untrained in hand-to-hand combat, would have an almost 50% chance of killing a normal guy with a punch. Far too much, in my opinion.

[Markdoc]

Solomon has it right: the problem is that the linear chart is too little, while the geometric chart is too much.

 

I do the same as Mudpyr8 - charge 2 points per point of STR and base encumbrance off casual STR.

 

This allows strong conan-style characters who can lift huge weights when they have to, but without allowing them to waltz around with the same huge weight on their back. At the same time, it ensures that such characters are rare.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Legendsmiths]

As a hiker and former soldier, capable of benching 130 kg, I can tell you that a well-packed and balanced 30 kg backpack is about all I would ever want to carry. I was mobile, but certainly felt like -2 or -3 DEX rolls and I was moving slower. I can't imagine if I had to fight with that pack on, which is one of the reasons military packs have quick release straps. Add a 5kg weapon to the mix and a 3kg helmet and you get the picture.

[Nuke]

Originally posted by Markdoc

Solomon has it right: the problem is that the linear chart is too little, while the geometric chart is too much.

 

There are a million ways to solve this with numbers, but one way is that each 10 strength doubles how much you can lift instead of each 5 strength. Obviously, you can replace "10" with a number of your choice resulting in a balance you like for your campaign.

[Outsider]

Actually, the double per 10 looks pretty good.

 

Though doing the math for inbetween numbers gets more tedious than I'd prefer. Combining the two ideas, and having encumbrance based on casual STR looks even better to me.

 

Lift goes up linearly within each 10 STR range, and ranges go up in a relatively shallow geometrically way every 10 strength.

 

10kg per str up to 20 (200 kg at 20)

20kg per str from 21 to 30 (400 kg at 30)

40kg per str from 31 to 40 (800 kg at 40)

etc

[Legendsmiths]

I really think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be. The amount of damage a character can do is pretty balanced and if you allow characters greater STR it gets whacky.

 

If you pay 2 pts per point of STR the issues with the STR chart go away in Heroic campaigns. Combine with casual STR enc, and you are set.

 

Changing the lift rates on the STR chart seems more kludgy to me than just charging double. When you charge double, you get the same result as doubling every 10 instead of every 5 but you don't change the damage rate.

[Outsider]

Actually, having thought about it even more, I'd not go with any form of geometrically increasing lift, and would cap even double cost normal STR purchases to 10 pips. If you want to build a champion weightlifter, you're buying abnormal STR that is limited to lifting only. My old group did talk a lot about changing STR to 2 points/pip, but I dont think that solves the problem entirely.

[Earen]

My gaming group had this discussion the other night. The thing one of us was getting caught up on was my description of a 10 characteristic being "normal" and a 20 characteristic being "legendary," i.e. songs sung about that person for generations if not longer.

 

His character has an 18 STR, which according to the normal STR chart can lift 300kg. He didn't think that was that phenomenal ... until we looked up the Olympic world records for weightlifting and found that the current world record in the highest weight class is 260kg. So basically, his 18 STR is legendary ... by our modern sense of the term.

 

I used to think that the geometric progression of STR was great for superheroic games, but bad for heroic ... but looking at those Olympic records changed my mind.

 

As far as encumbrance goes, I changed it so that one could use one's Casual STR with no penalty ... so long as everything is evenly distributed on the body, armor and backpack-wise. Beyond 50% of one's STR, they start taking penalties at the normal rate. If it gets abusive, I'll change it.

[Outsider]

The problem with looking at the Olympic weight lifting records as a determinant of how strong someone can be is that those records are for lifting in a certain way only, and, IRC, for lifting the weight completely above the head and locking the elbows.

 

My interpretation (your milage may vary) is that max lift in fantasy hero is much more along the lines of how much the person can get off the ground at all, not just lift over their head.

[Earen]

Originally posted by Outsider

The problem with looking at the Olympic weight lifting records as a determinant of how strong someone can be is that those records are for lifting in a certain way only, and, IRC, for lifting the weight completely above the head and locking the elbows.

 

But as a guideline for what the upper end of actual RL human strength is, we figured it was a pretty good benchmark. No, it's not 100% accurate ... but if you want that then you'd have to measure lifting strength vs. squatting strength vs. benching strength vs. how effectively one could use their strength in combat vs. ... ad nauseam. Also, as far as "just getting a weight off the ground" ... I take the approach that was mentioned earlier of "lifting it and able to carry it a few steps." Which, in my opinion, would roughly equate to lifting it over your head and holding for three seconds.

 

And anyway ... I'm happy with it because it got my player who's being rules nitpicky to calm down

[Legendsmiths]

Casual STR at no penalty doesn't work. That means a 10 STR guy can carry 50kg with no penalty. Having carried 30kg I can tell you that is just not true, even with a distributed load. I am in shape, stronger than average, so this just doesn't seem realistic at all.

 

Casual STR should be the Heavy limit of encumberance, not the start.

 

Remember, lift is a deadlift that you can barely shuffle around with. The records you quoted were clean & jerk, meaning over your head. The biggest deadlift is about 900 lbs, just over 400kg... uncannily similar to 20 STR. Here's the link to the records: http://www.mcshane-enterprises.com/ASL/coan.html.

 

Back in my GURPS days I ran a statistical analysis of lift records. Benching is about 65% of your deadlift. So, considering I can bench 275 lbs (or could I should say), or 125 kg, I could deadlift 192kg (which seems dead on). That would give me a 15 STR. I have always been physical, but I am not a "burly" man. Clean & Jerk and Bench are very close, within 10% usually.

 

So, I think the Hero chart is perfect, but too cheap, hence why I charge 2 pts per point instead of 1 for heroic games.

 

If I did enc based on casual STR (lift actually), I would have a heavy enc of 100 kg, almost my bench. Considering it was even distributed (it would have to be), that would be a lot. Here's what my enc chart would look like:

Enc		Mass		DEX/DCV		Move		END
None		13		+0		-		0.5
Light		25		-1		-		1
Med		50		-2		-1, 80%		2
Heavy		100		-3		-2, 60%		4
X-Hvy		150		-4		-4, 40%		8
Lift		200		-5		-8, 20%		*

 

I'd have to carry 13kg or less (about 30lbs) to not be encumbered. That also means, as in my story above, when I had my 30kg pack plus weapon I was med enc, -2 to DEX/DCV and -1 move. I also was paying END and getting tired faster than normal.

 

This is still very heroic, but realistic enough for me. If I wanted serious realism, I'd play GURPS, which has linear STR and reality tests amazingly well. This system reality tests well enough for the cinematic feel that it also allows. It's a nice balance.

 

All that for a tweak to enc and STR that costs 2pts. That seems an easy fix that does what it needs to do.

[Markdoc]

>>>My interpretation (your milage may vary) is that max lift in fantasy hero is much more along the lines of how much the person can get off the ground at all, not just lift over their head.<<<

 

That's your interpretation (and a pretty common one, too) but it doesn't really match the rules.

 

A normal man (STR 10) can lift 100 kg and hold it up for hours (he uses and recovers 4 END/turn). He can move at full speed. He can pick that weight up, put it down, and so on more or less indefinately. If he moves slowly, he can carry it for kilometres - OK, if he wants to save END, he's only doing about 2 km/hr, which is a very slow walk, but still... If he wants to make a more normal walking speed he can - in fact he can even jog with the 100 kg object for about 4 minutes, before he has to rest (in other words, he can jog with it for a few city blocks and keep up to a sustained speed of 7.2 km per hour).

 

That's just doing things strictly by the rules and doesn't really match my picture of "can get off the ground". Any weight that you can pick up and transport a few kilometres before you have to put it down, you should also be able to lift over your head. The movement examples suggests that the lift is what you can get up on your shoulder and move around with - slowly and encumbered all to hell, or faster and sweatily, but definately not immobile and not going ARRGHH! and holding the weight off the ground like weightlifter.

 

cheers, Mark

[Legendsmiths]

For the rules interpretation, page 20 says: "... the maximum amount of weight he can just manage to lift off the ground, stagger for a step or two, then drop".

 

I'm pretty sure most people didn't by Megascale 1" = 1 km, so a step or two is just that.

 

Also, the 4 END/turn:

END Cost Per Turn: When encumbered in combat, the character uses this much END per Turn, in addition to any other END used for STR, Powers, and the like. Additionally, you can use this number as the amount of Long Term END he loses every hour which he carries that much weight.

 

So that means, in addition to the 2 END/Phase he would spend, he spends an additional 4 END/turn. Since his REC is 4, this effectively negates it and he is losing REC at a rate of 4 END (assuming SPD 2) per Turn. Additionally, since he is at -8" of movement due to encumberance, he would have to be moving non-combat (his DCV is half anyway from enc.) he also has to spend at least 1 END/Phase (full move) just to move. So now he is spending 10 END/turn, recovering 4, for a net of 6 which gives him, roughly, 3.5 turns of movement, or about 40 seconds.

 

Those are the "straight rules", as it were. Assuming you are a normal man, head to the gym and pick up 220lbs and let me know when you've finished your first lap around the track. I think these rules are a little on the cinematic side, but certainly playable.