Linear Lift, STR modification for Non-Superpowered games.

[UltraRob]

I thought of another issue if we go with the idea of 1STR=10kg of weight...It would mean that STR:20 would now become STR:40! The cost would go up 3X, and not only that, now damages are all doubled! The END is increased and you'd have to reconfigure a bunch of the STR minimums.

 

Rob

[Max Callahan]

Originally posted by Markdoc

 

That's your interpretation (and a pretty common one, too) but it doesn't really match the rules.

 

A normal man (STR 10) can lift 100 kg and hold it up for hours (he uses and recovers 4 END/turn). He can move at full speed. He can pick that weight up, put it down, and so on more or less indefinately. If he moves slowly, he can carry it for kilometres - OK, if he wants to save END, he's only doing about 2 km/hr, which is a very slow walk, but still... If he wants to make a more normal walking speed he can - in fact he can even jog with the 100 kg object for about 4 minutes, before he has to rest (in other words, he can jog with it for a few city blocks and keep up to a sustained speed of 7.2 km per hour).

 

That's just doing things strictly by the rules and doesn't really match my picture of "can get off the ground". Any weight that you can pick up and transport a few kilometres before you have to put it down, you should also be able to lift over your head. The movement examples suggests that the lift is what you can get up on your shoulder and move around with - slowly and encumbered all to hell, or faster and sweatily, but definately not immobile and not going ARRGHH! and holding the weight off the ground like weightlifter.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Unless you take encumberance into account. Lets consider a 0 point normal (heroic), with 10 STR lifting 100 kg they are at -5 to DVC and DEX rolls, and thus -2 DVC, they take -8 to Movement and thus have -2 inches of running, and burn they burn 4 extra end per turn, and since their 4 REC is covering their 4 end use from their STR 1 minute later they are at 0 END.

And Encumberance is a basic combat modifer it's not an optional rule.

[Outsider]

"I thought of another issue if we go with the idea of 1STR=10kg of weight...It would mean that STR:20 would now become STR:40! The cost would go up 3X, and not only that, now damages are all doubled! The END is increased and you'd have to reconfigure a bunch of the STR minimums."

 

Huh?

 

The only way str 40 (linear) is equivalent to str 20 (geometric) is the lift weight. For all other uses, 20 (linear) remains exactly the same as 20 (geometric). still do 4d6 HA, still get 5 stun & 2 Rec, Still wield weapons the same.

 

Ive always thought it was a tad silly that one has to be an olympic weightlifter (strength-wise) to use a greatsword properly, anyway.

[UltraRob]

Originally posted by Outsider

"I thought of another issue if we go with the idea of 1STR=10kg of weight...It would mean that STR:20 would now become STR:40! The cost would go up 3X, and not only that, now damages are all doubled! The END is increased and you'd have to reconfigure a bunch of the STR minimums."

 

Huh?

 

The only way str 40 (linear) is equivalent to str 20 (geometric) is the lift weight. For all other uses, 20 (linear) remains exactly the same as 20 (geometric). still do 4d6 HA, still get 5 stun & 2 Rec, Still wield weapons the same.

 

Ive always thought it was a tad silly that one has to be an olympic weightlifter (strength-wise) to use a greatsword properly, anyway.

 

What I meant is, if you assume (as HERO does) that 400kg is the Human Maxima, and you are using a linear system (at 1 STR point = 10kg) then STR:20 is 200kg of lift capacity, and STR:40 is now 400kg of lift capacity.

 

Make sense?

 

Now, going with the HERO concept of lift capacity maximums (max human is 400kg), you'd now need a STR of 40 to equal that. That STR of 40, however, does 8D6 damage, not 4D6, and costs 8 END to throw a punch with. It also costs 30pts, as opposed to the cost of 10 points having that lift capacity had before.

 

In addition, STR Mins for weapons go as high as 19 for a Great Pick, which would be roughly 370kg in the old system, or STR:37 under a linear system. (Just in case you still planned to cap STR at 20 under the linear system.) In fact, most STR:Mins for weapons seem to be 13-18 old system, which would be roughly STR:15-30 linear. Which means capping them at 20 would be too low.

 

My point is, this small change does change the balance of the game, although it does offer more realistic play options in a lot of ways, and a wider variety of stat possibilities for STR. I can see great advantages to it, and it might make the game more realistic.

 

Rob

[Legendsmiths]

However, consider this: how many significant levels of STR do you really need? I see the problem with a linear system that it is too detailed.

 

The geometric progression captures the signficant levels of 10, 13, 15, 18, and 20 just fine. Isn't that enough detail, especially for a cinematic RPG?

 

All I see linear STR doing is breaking the damage and END system, costing way to much to make a reasonable "normal" body builder, breaking the STR min system, and complicating STR vs. STR contests, entangles, and so on.

 

You get nearly the same effect by just paying 2 pts per point of STR and it doesn't break anything.

[Outsider]

20 strength isnt the human maximum, though. Its just a break point where strength starts costing double. IF non-supers humans were NEVER allowed to buy past 20 under ANY circumstances, I would agree that keeping the geometric lift tables would be a-ok.

 

That isnt the case, however.

 

 

As to a 'reasonable' normal bodybuilder suddenly costing too much... Doubling the base cost of STR means body builder STR costs 16 to 20 points (18 to 20 STR), and with 20 points, the bodybuilder is not just a bodybuilder, but a world class weightlifter. Substituting linear lift, but keeping the points the same, 16 to 20 points will get 23 to 25 STR, which is -plenty- strong, but not world class. To be world class in anything should, IMO, require that character in question be more than a basic "normal" (0+25).

[lemming]

Sam Bell for his Arduin Hero had the STR formula be 25 kg * 2^(STR/10) instead of the rules 25 kg * 2^(STR/5)

Still wound up with the same damages, etc... but made the lifting not seem to out of line.

[Markdoc]

As to the comments about how much you can lift, I know the definition in the rules - I tried to discourage Steve from putting it in there, since that's not how the rules work.

 

OTOH, as pointed out, if you use the optional effects of encumbrance, then that comes closer to the idea that what you can lift is real strain - except that it really limits the time you can lift and carry things, not what you can do with it - you can still pick up your maximum weight and sprint - it's just that you'll burn out in under a minute instead of 4-5 minutes....

 

Having said that, I'm not a big fan of changing the rules in this regard: I've never really seen a case where this was an issue, gamingwise.

 

cheers, Mark

[Outsider]

I have.

 

Hence the development of the rules mod.

 

To each his own.

[PhilFleischmann]

Not trying to nit-pick, but the FREd lift progression is not geometric, it's exponential. As Lemming pointed out the formula is 25 * 2^(STR/5). The STR is an exponent, hence exponential. The Sam Bell modification that he mentions is also exponential.

 

This suggests a possible compromise for those who think the exponential scale is too much, but the linear scale is too little: Why not actually use a geometric scale? Say, STR^2, that is you can max lift kg equal to your STR squared. Thus 10=100kg, 20=400kg, as it is now, but going further 30=900kg instead of 1600kg; 40 STR=1600 kg instead of 6400 kg. If this still seems like too much for a heroic game (it does to me), try (STR^2)/2, i.e. half your STR squared.

 

I'm not endorsing or opposing any of the proposed changes mentioned, just pointing out the possibilities.

[lemming]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Not trying to nit-pick, but the FREd lift progression is not geometric, it's exponential. As Lemming pointed out the formula is 25 * 2^(STR/5). The STR is an exponent, hence exponential. The Sam Bell modification that he mentions is also exponential.

Doh!

[Max Callahan]

I had started toying with a Linear Lift STR mod for a Low fantasy Viking game I was preparing to run. I was looking at a 10kg per point of STR lift. The problem I quickly hit was that the primary ranged weapon in the game was going to be the spear. And with a system where STR 0 lifts 0 kg throwing range breaks. Just something to keep in mind if a) throwing distances are a major point in your game, or you are going to be dealing a lot with characters that are going to have a negative STR (fairies and what not).

[gewing]

Probably all my fault. A fantasy Character who is 8 feet tall and has a 30 strength can throw things out of whack. Although, in many ways the 18 str martial artist was worse...

 

Originally posted by Outsider

I have.

 

Hence the development of the rules mod.

 

To each his own.

[Outsider]

I wasnt going to name names.

[gewing]

Well when Cory makes "me" as a parody character... the ape man...

 

Oh well. I had some fun with him.

 

Originally posted by Outsider

I wasnt going to name names.

[Bookwyrm]

Weight Lifting is as much about grip and leverage as it is about the weight of an object being lifted. A person might be able to lift the equivalent of a small car's weight on a set of barbells but it is quite another thing to lift a car. On the other hand, how does a 10 STR normal who is 220 lbs. over weight even move will all that extra encumbrance they are carry? There are a lot of people who go about their daily lives every day carrying this extra encumbrance. I think there is a lot more about lifting and encumbrance than a bit of number crunching can solve. I think everyone should apply the common sense rule when it is required. As of yet, I have never seen a lone human being pick up a small car. I don't think it is possible. Humans are just too small to lift such a large bulky object. A quick and dirty rule may be to use a character's Casual STR unless they have a few levels of growth when trying to lift heavy objects larger than themselves.

[Max Callahan]

There's an event in the world's Strongest mans competion called the car carry. Here is a description of one such event.

 

The last event on Saturday night was the Car Carry. The course was 80 feet long for the fastest time. The car was a modified Volkswagon weighing 815 lbs. (369.6 kg) A portion of the roof and floor were removed and the car was fitted with shoulder straps to simulate a Super Yoke-type of event. This event was also very awkward and not an event that can be practiced for easily. Only 4 of the 16 competitors were able to complete the Car Carry course. Derek Boyer, originally from the Fiji Islands and now representing Australia, showed his determination and "Island Power" in finishing and posted a time of 56.87 seconds, placing 4th in the event. Schoonveld carried the car across the finish line in 52.09 seconds and placed 3rd. "The Viking", Svend Karlsen of Norway, a favorite in this event was brilliant and crossed the finish line in 30.85 seconds. But by far, the most impressive performance in an event over the entire two-day competition would have to go to Chad Smith of Texas in this, the Car Carry. Chad has often exhibited extreme power and speed in yoke events, but would he continue with an awkward 800-plus pound Volkswagon? The answer was "yes" and he astounded the crowd with the "unheard of" time of 21.78 seconds. This was 9 seconds faster than the world-class time posted by Karlsen. It was an amazing show of strength and speed.

 

text quoted from http://www.strength-athletics.com/caribbean/article.html

 

Jouko Ahola holds the world record for this event. Car-carrying world record 1996 444kg (978 lb.) 27.6 m (90.5 ft.)

http://www.dlc.fi/~gold-cam/jokke.html

[Outsider]

370 kg? They must have modified it by removing the engine, transmission, and maybe some of the frame, too

 

A stock VW Bug (old style) is just about twice that (750 kg)

 

Even a classic Cooper Mini weighs 567 kg ready to drive. And thats a -really- small car.

[Bookwyrm]

This proves my point about needing grip and leverage. They had to modify the car before they could lift its weight. The roof and floor were removed so someone could climb inside the car and lift the vehicle at its center of mass. No leverage was needed to lift the vehicle. Moreover, the shoulder straps provided the much needed grip. None of them would have been able to just grab the vehicle externally and pick it up.

[PhilFleischmann]

Leverage is indeed a very important thing which players and

GMs alike often ignore (in any RPG).

 

I myself have lifted a car on numerous occasions. Not a modified VW either - a Chevy Malibu station wagon. I used a very simple device called a jack, based on nothing more complicated than simple Newtonian mechanics. No advanced physics or magic was involved.

 

I GMed a FH game in which the PCs had to move a 1" diameter stone boulder in order to break and disrupt a portal to hell through which small hoards of demons kept coming to terrorize local villagers. After defeating the latest wave of demons, they then had to mess up the pattern of boulders thus closing the gate and disrupting the magic.

 

I ran this scenario several times at cons and got many different reactions from the players. All they had to do was move one of the five boulders one inch (two meters). They didn't have to lift it. So many of them tried to simply push it themselves. "Come on! Everyone push at the same time and Push your STR! Make some EGO rolls!" This was useless of course. One guy had the idea of tieing a rope around the boulder and having his horse pull it. Both I and the horse said nay.

 

There were plenty of trees around from which levers could be made and smaller rocks to use as fulcrums. Most of the parties eventually figured it out, but with one group I had to give them a deus ex machina friendly giant to help push.

 

Anyone with a high school diploma should understand how simple machines (levers, inclined planes, wheels, etc.) work. If you don't, go learn. They're really very simple.