Guest Champsguy Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg > Within the genre, superspeed does not grant super-OCV or > super STR. Actually, it has. [snipped] So in the DCU, superspeed *can* grant super-OCV and super-HA damage. It has done so, in canon, on multiple occasions, under multiple writers. Yes. Wally has a power pool (or a big multipower). He can give himself +10 OCV, or +20D6 HA. I've played a super-speedster for years, and have been quite abusive with him at times. The difference is, I've never seen Wally use his White Dwarf punch on 100 people at the same time. He's a powerful character, but he's not the ultimate trump card for DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 > They're not complex traps. So, mentally constructing an invisible razor force wall is *simple*? Right. [snip] > I was going with the scenario you advocated. Really? In the scenario I advocated, I don't remember Team DC stopping and letting Team Marvel finish laying traps before Team DC's speedsters ramped up into superspeed mode and commenced the blitz. Don't bullshit me. In any fight where the Flash isn't holding back for PIS reasons, he can finish any # of actions before his opponent can finish their first one. No, that's not in the Champions rules, admitted. Then again, neither is the DCU. [snip] > I don't think I've lost a down yet. [snip] Oh, /please/. [snip] > No, all my arguments about the use of Marvel's heavyhitters, > and the limitations of DC speedsters, have been in direct > response to your "instant win" scenarios. I believe that the > very first post I made on this thread was discounting > various "instant win" scenarios for DC---meaning that I'd > make them actually fight the Marvel heroes. We /are/ fighting you. We're just fighting at you at a rate you can't possibly hope to match. If you have to outlaw *that many* things for Team DCU -- things not even involving their cosmic omnipotent characters -- in order to give Team Marvel a 'fair' chance, all that does is make it quite plain which side would win a real fight, as opposed to a fight with arbitrary restrictions and plot handicaps ladled out hither and yon for the benefit of Team Marvel. > I'm not sure who I would decide would actually win this > fight, but I'm not gonna let DC walk away with the trophy > just because you're in love with superspeed. Hey, I don't use superspeed this way either -- in my Champions games. But there's a /reason/ my Champions games don't have DC characters in them. And this is not a Champions game. This is a Marvel vs. DC "who'd win", and neither character set has Champions conversions that we could all universally agree on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 > Yes. Wally has a power pool (or a big multipower). He can > give himself +10 OCV, or +20D6 HA. I've played a super- > speedster for years, and have been quite abusive with him > at times. The difference is, I've never seen Wally use his > White Dwarf punch on 100 people at the same time. Quit cheesing Champions game mechanics. [snip counter-argument based on Champions game mechanics -- I'm just tired of you always pretending that both Team Marvel and Team DC are characters that have been created and DM'ed under strict Champions rules for their whole careers.] > He's a powerful character, but he's not the ultimate trump > card for DC. Not by himself, maybe. Of course, he's not by himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg Wow, so Team Marvel somehow got initiative on the speedsters... *again*. *And* knows their rough line of approach. *And* has had time to get complex traps set up. It's called "Abort to defensive power" And you CAN abort on phase 12 before you would normally go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeAsianKid Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Chuckg, your definition of superspeed is vastly different from everyone else. In the official DC vs Marvel writeup, STORM BEAT WONDER WOMAN. I specifically remember reading a comic where Wonder Woman and Flash raced, and Wonder Woman was just a hair behind. And yet Wonder Woman with her bracers of deflection and super speed lost to Storm. There's also the rule of no instant win powers. Your argument of winning fights in .00001 of a second counts as an instant win. If we were doing dumb power stunts like that Johnny Storm flies to DC world and goes nova on the planet. Blink would teleport Superman's asteroid to DC world where it would get to keep its same velocity. Storm and Thor concentrate and a worldwide hurricane kills DC world. We're not arguing for stupid power stunts here. I really think you're just slightly too obsessed on superspeed. Wally's superspeed couldn't keep him from having his legs ripped off in the Obsidian Age. On a side note, I will concede (though I personally think it is the dumbest thing ever) that the writers have stated speedsters can move faster then the speed of thought. While being enslaved by telepaths, the Flash, Superman, and Wonder Woman had a quick conversation because they could all speak and understand faster then the speed of thought apparently (though that logic can be disproved so many ways). But I'll end on the fact that Wonder Woman, who can move faster then the speed of thought, lost to Storm in an official right up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Chuckg No, that's not in the Champions rules, admitted. Then again, neither is the DCU. And it not in any of the published official DC hero super hero games, either. I haven't read any comics in the last ten years or so, so I'm not participating in that arguement. Just thought I'd throw that in to this mess. FWIW. Go back to your "Superspeed is the Real Ultimate Power" "is not" "is too" fest. And people think the SSM threads in NGD are useless... D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 > Chuckg, your definition of superspeed is vastly different > from everyone else. In the official DC vs Marvel writeup, > STORM BEAT WONDER WOMAN. I thought everyone knew that that "official DC vs. Marvel writeup" made its decisions based on fan voting. It was nothing but a popularity contest. Which is why said crossover is about as canonical as toilet paper. [snip] > If we were doing dumb power stunts like that Johnny Storm > flies to DC world and goes nova on the planet. Johnny's maximum nova flame can only destroy a building. OTOH, Wally /can/ move fast enough to complete a zillion actions in a heartbeat. > Blink would teleport Superman's asteroid to DC world where > it would get to keep its same velocity. Unless I missed an X-comic somewhere, Blink cannot teleport an asteroid-sized mass. OTOH, Wally /can/ move fast enough to complete a zillion actions in a heartbeat. > Storm and Thor concentrate and a worldwide hurricane > kills DC world. And they could do that, but it would take them a couple of hours, by which point the battle is already decided elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by misterdeath And it not in any of the published official DC hero super hero games, either. I haven't read any comics in the last ten years or so, so I'm not participating in that arguement. Just thought I'd throw that in to this mess. FWIW. Go back to your "Superspeed is the Real Ultimate Power" "is not" "is too" fest. And people think the SSM threads in NGD are useless... D And on that note: Superspeed is not the ultimate power. There is no ultimate power. Granted, if the Flash can make 500 actions per phase there really shouldn't be too many people who can handle that. Here's the thing. The Flash doesn't make 500 actions per phase. In Champions, he's got area affect, selective attacks and they aren't of the umpteenth dice level of damage. Why? Because non-superspeed characters can hang with the Flash, at least for a while. Interpreting the Flash's speed as a near limitless number of actions per phase may seem logical except for one thing. It doesn't reflect how superspeedsters and non-superspeedsters interact with each other in the comics. Marvel vs. DC? Tie. Why? Because there are a million and one reasons why this or that character from either universe just plays a trump card before the other side knows to react. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Agent X -- why do people keep talking about how it would go down in a Champions game(*), when I'm not talking about how it would go down in a Champions game? I've already said that I adjudicate superspeed a completely different way in the Champions games I DM. And the ones I play in also use the Champions rules interpretation. However, I've been approaching this fight from the POV of how the /comic books/ would slug it out -- without fan voting, and without the usual editorial "this fight must last 22 pages, however stupidly we have to handicap sides" fiat. Like if, oh, two chief editors suddenly got into the shit one day and just started doing all-out rhetorical brawling across the cafeteria table. Or something like that. [snip rules mechanics] Also, as to this: > It doesn't reflect how superspeedsters and non- > superspeedsters interact with each other in the comics. *points up* In DCU comics, superspeedsters and non super-speedsters *do* interact that way... not all the time, but they have interacted that way often enough to show that it's a genuine capability. Even if it's an underutilized capability, it's one that can still be shown to exist via actual on-the-page feats, and not just speculation. (*) Granted, this is the Champions board, but I've been treating this whole thing as being massively OT for this board since post one, and I don't think I'm alone there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Marvel Characters do not exist in Champions canon. DC characters do not exist in Champions canon. Neither have canon writeups under Champions rules. As such, they must be judged by their in-comic feats, *not* by consequences of how you, personally, would write them up in Champions. Otherwise, we'd have to deal with the morons who think Superman is around 500 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Metaphysician Marvel Characters do not exist in Champions canon. DC characters do not exist in Champions canon. Neither have canon writeups under Champions rules. As such, they must be judged by their in-comic feats, *not* by consequences of how you, personally, would write them up in Champions. Otherwise, we'd have to deal with the morons who think Superman is around 500 points. And DC Speedsters have problems with non-speedsters. Tie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superskrull Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Two worlds enter, one world leaves! Originally posted by Chuckg [bOTOH, Wally /can/ move fast enough to complete a zillion actions in a heartbeat.[/b] OTOH, Wally or one of th other speedmonkeys closes on Mimic or Superadaptoid and they become the fastest corpse on the planet. When you're in range, you're copied. doesn't matter if it's mutant hex powers, cosmic awareness, transistorized armor or Thor's frickin' hammer. OTOH, Omega Red's death field just ate Wally OTOH, Longshot's luck powers cause Wally to pop a tendon. Lucky break, huh? OTOH, Mimic's already standing next to Multiple Man and is now standing next to everyone in Marvel-earth. OTOH, even cutting off Loki's head doesn't kill him, he'll put it back on while laughing at you OTOH, Superman can always play orbital deathray satellite! OTOH Space Phantom just hijacked Superman, cancel Christmas! OTOH, Dr Polaris and Magneto can explode anyone with iron-based blood! OTOH, Ghost Rider's Penance Stare can send Spawn screamin' back to hell! -whoops, wrong universe- Look, there are really two ways to resolve this fight. you can pick a system and dice that puppy out while slaughtering the Spandex set with unholy glee or you can script that bad boy out and watch the artist go up like a drummer for Spinal Tap trying to show the awesomeness of this knockdown-dragout Thunderdome-eque extravaganza. Either way, someone's goin' home cryin' and unhappy. There's a reason Deus-Ex-Machina Man never got his own book. Having the trump power is always boring. Flash never beats the important bad guy in the first panel and then cuddles with Linda (or whoever) and does crosswords for the rest of the comic. Stories have a specific order and a set of rules that needs to be followed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 We aren't writing a story. We are assessing a fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Given the nature of the subject matter, the way the writers of the stories are fast and loose with the absolute and relative abilties of their characters, there's no objective way to assess the fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Metaphysician We aren't writing a story. We are assessing a fight. But you are assessing a fight with evidence from stories. The trick is to use the evidence in the context of the story and not to discount evidence that refutes your assumptions in order to come to a reasonable conclusion. Reasonable Conclusion IMO: Tie. Too many characters on either side are capable of ending the fight pretty early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Maxx Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 stepping up to the plate Originally posted by Agent X But you are assessing a fight with evidence from stories. The trick is to use the evidence in the context of the story and not to discount evidence that refutes your assumptions in order to come to a reasonable conclusion. Reasonable Conclusion IMO: Tie. Too many characters on either side are capable of ending the fight pretty early. My question is ... Just how many character's on either side are we talking here, especially if we include the vilians? Cause wouldn't it then just fall to numbers of which side has the most 'fight ender's' just my .01 [the government took the other one] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Re: stepping up to the plate Originally posted by The Maxx My question is ... Just how many character's on either side are we talking here, especially if we include the vilians? Cause wouldn't it then just fall to numbers of which side has the most 'fight ender's' just my .01 [the government took the other one] I have no idea how to quantify this fight. I think there are enough cosmic level characters on either side to make numbers moot. It comes down to which gamebreaker goes first and that's going to be based more on extrasensory capabilities than superspeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Champsguy Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 I think it would come down to which side makes a critically stupid mistake first. It would be really bad for the Flash to run up and hit either Strong Guy or Sebastian Shaw with a full strength speed-punch. There are too many people with superpowers, too many chances for unforeseen interactions, to determine what would actually happen. Remember, you're cramming 95% of each Earth's superhumans into one area. Superman and Metallo better not stand too close to each other. Somebody is gonna blow up right out the gate because their powers didn't mesh well with the guy they were standing next to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeAsianKid Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Instead of arguing universe versus universe, why don't we choose two people to fight at a time? In other words, I'll suggest a pairing, next poster discusses who they think will win, and then post their own pairing. I suggest: Gambit versus Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Barring significant good fortune for Robin, Gambit's going to pound the snot out of him. Next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeAsianKid Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Ok, let's make it a little more difficult. Hawkwoman versus Ms. Marvel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Invulnerability and Class 50 strength vs. mad combat skillz... but roughty normal human strength and durability. *splat* Team DC loses another Don King production. Next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeAsianKid Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Ok, Green Lantern versus Silver Surfer, both cosmic power supers with OAF's (although granted if Kyle lost his ring he'd be much more handicapped then the Surfer losing his board) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 tough one. I'll call it a tie as it depends on who makes the first mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 It depends. I think both of them have enough power to protect themselves from each other. If GL no longer has to recharge his ring and if he doesn't get tired, it's a stalemate. Otherwise Silver Surfer can wear him down. How about Shang Chi vs Lady Shiva? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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