melessqr Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 A character has a whole list of characteristic and defences, along with a cosmetic (Hero ID) transform that are intended to be activated all together, and all take extra time to complete, as a unit... None of the powers are intended to, or should be able to be used individually... it's an all or nothing transformation... How would you buy it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 If the character has major changes in personality and Skills along with Characteristics then I would use the Multiform power, and if needed take the Extra Time Limitation. If all that happens is the character gets more powerful in another form (Colossus) then just buy all the additional abilities with the OIHID Limitation and give him a 5 point Physical Limitation stating it takes x amount of time to transform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 I agree with Monolith, except that the description of Only In Hero ID specifies that the character should have some difficulty changing forms, and mentions taking at least a full Phase if not more as one of the possible difficulties. So, I personally would not allow his suggested Physical Limitation unless the transformation takes longer than a Turn. Of course YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted January 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 No... maybe it's the programmer side of my personality coming out, but I don't like that solution. It's not a Multiform, it's a suite of powers that get activated when the character enters Hero ID. There shouldn't be any choice in the matter... it's like the powers are linked, but the rules for link don't allow what I'm trying to accomplish. Right now they'e just OIHID, but that by itself doesn't require the activation of the powers when the Hero ID Transform is activated. Maybe I'll just make up a -1/4 Limitation to do what I want it to do... Seems like it should be a pretty easy thing to do, but it's not being that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 OIHID. Check out War-Man for an example: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted January 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Ok... and what? It's a character that has a list of powers that are only useable in hero ID... That's basicly a non-sequitur. The list of powers under question basicly Define the Hero ID, and if you have to be in Hero ID to use them, you can't use them until you're in Hero ID... It's a chicken/egg problem. So, which comes first, the Hero ID, or the powers that define the ID? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted January 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Another couple things... How does that character get in and out of Hero ID? How does one prevent him from entering Hero ID? Human Characteristic Maxima? I'm not seeing the extra points being paid for the stats that exceed the maximums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by melessqr Another couple things... Originally posted by melessqr How does that character get in and out of Hero ID? How does one prevent him from entering Hero ID? Like any other character with OIHID, as described under OIHID in the rule book. Originally posted by melessqr Human Characteristic Maxima? I'm not seeing the extra points being paid for the stats that exceed the maximums. Characteristics bought as Powers are not affected by NCM. This is commonly known as the "Defender Exploit", and considered cheesy by some, but its book legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by melessqr Ok... and what? It's a character that has a list of powers that are only useable in hero ID... That's basicly a non-sequitur. How is it a non-sequitir? Its what you asked about. Originally posted by melessqr The list of powers under question basicly Define the Hero ID, and if you have to be in Hero ID to use them, you can't use them until you're in Hero ID... It's a chicken/egg problem. So, which comes first, the Hero ID, or the powers that define the ID? I think you have a major conceptual disconnect regarding OIHID. You have all the abilities that are not OIHID available when you are in either HID or not in HID. If you want two completely different forms that have no similarlity to one another use Multiform. If you want a character that "gets better" in a "hero form", meaning they can use all the skills and abilities they normally have PLUS other abilities they dont normally have, you use OIHID. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted January 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 I'm sorry... the book doesn't enumerate the depth and breath of the possibilities for how characters might enter Hero ID. It does however state that it should take at least a Full Phase, and some method must be supplied to prevent or make difficult the change. I was wondering how War-Man was so limited, as I see nothing on the sheet that specifies how the transformation takes place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintQuakko Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 John Wrath had (before he was fi... I mean retired) a PRIMUS squad car, which had a Hero ID. Basically, it was a normal police style prowler until you hit the big red button, and the whole thing extended, MIB style, and sprouted stubby wings and a hoverjet system. The transformation took a little while, and I think beautifully illustrates what OIHID is supposed to do. Basically, there were a bunch of gadgets that didn't get exposed until the car was in flight, which was only possible when the car was in Hero ID. It's not meant to be that much of a disad, because it's only -1/4... A better character example, KS, would probably have been Chiton... he changed from a high school kid into a 8 foot bug... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted January 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Let me try this another way... If a character has a set of Powers that Define the Hero ID, (i.e. Their activation is the thing that defines the character as being IN Hero ID. The character is not IN Hero ID until these powers are Activated), then putting OIHID limitation on those powers would prevent the character from Ever entering Hero ID. So, how do you define a suite of powers that all activate at the same time and Place the character IN Hero ID so that he might be able to use any powers that he might have that Have OIHID? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by SaintQuakko A better character example, KS, would probably have been Chiton... he changed from a high school kid into a 8 foot bug... Hmm....maybe. But War Man is more interesting IMO; Chitin just gets a bunch of stats and armor and is kind of boring IMO, War Man has a bit more going on. But.....here is Chitin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by melessqr Let me try this another way... If a character has a set of Powers that Define the Hero ID, (i.e. Their activation is the thing that defines the character as being IN Hero ID. The character is not IN Hero ID until these powers are Activated), then putting OIHID limitation on those powers would prevent the character from Ever entering Hero ID. So, how do you define a suite of powers that all activate at the same time and Place the character IN Hero ID so that he might be able to use any powers that he might have that Have OIHID? You are over thinking this. You dont need a power to activate the other powers for your HID. You turn them on or off at will. The assumption of a new form is part of OIHID. You dont need Instant Change or anything else. Its all bundled into the OIHID modifier. If you couldnt control the powers activation at all, I suppose you could take them all NCC at the -1 level -- basically the exact reverse of the normal Can Activate But Not Control -1 version, and then have an Accidental Change which would activate them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Okay, melessqr, I'll try to review some of the issues that seem to have been raised by your posts, and see if I can clarify them a bit for you : The difficulty/preventability of changing into OIHID can take many forms, and Extra Time is only one option, and not necessarily combined with any other. A character whose change to OIHID takes some time could be prevented by simply clocking him in his more fragile form before the changes are complete; someone who has to speak a magic word may change instantly, but can't change at all if he's gagged or otherwise silenced; someone who needs an artifact to change can have said artifact taken away; and so on. When the character is not in Hero ID, any abilities he or she possesses do not function; this includes Characteristics, which are normally Persistent. So, whenever the character is in "normal form," a punch that would not even be noticed by his Hero ID may send him to la-la land, because his other self's massive PD isn't active. The basis for the Limitation is that the character is less powerful and more vulnerable while he's in this other identity. Note that the Lim also implies that the character needs to spend part of his time out of Hero ID, so that he can be caught by surprise before he can change, or placed in circumstances where changing is impractical. This can be because the character has a Secret ID to protect (Billy Batson/Captain Marvel), the change is difficult or involuntary (Bruce Banner/Hulk), or the means to change are not always available (Tony Stark/Iron Man). Does that make things any clearer? If not please feel free to post followup questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted January 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Bug-Boy has the same problems as War-Man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by melessqr Bug-Boy has the same problems as War-Man. Which would be what precisely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by melessqr Let me try this another way... If a character has a set of Powers that Define the Hero ID, (i.e. Their activation is the thing that defines the character as being IN Hero ID. The character is not IN Hero ID until these powers are Activated), then putting OIHID limitation on those powers would prevent the character from Ever entering Hero ID. So, how do you define a suite of powers that all activate at the same time and Place the character IN Hero ID so that he might be able to use any powers that he might have that Have OIHID? Ah, I think I see what the problem is. Powers that are Only In Hero ID are not inherently Limited when the hero is using them in his hero ID; they are Limited by the fact that the hero cannot use them all the time, because the hero is expected to spend some time out of his hero ID. When out of his hero ID the character does not have access to these abilities, any more than Bruce Banner has the Hulk's strength before he "Hulks Out," or Tony Stark can fire repulsor rays if someone attacks him in his office while he's not wearing his armor. Once the character is actually in Hero ID, though, he can use all the abilities defined with that Limitation at will, but loses them again when he changes to normal ID. How's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted January 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 How does he get In and Out of Hero ID? Which of his powers (useable in Hero ID) can he voluntarily turn Off and still be in Hero ID? I think you understand Binary too well... there is not only On and Off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by melessqr How does he get In and Out of Hero ID? Which of his powers (useable in Hero ID) can he voluntarily turn Off and still be in Hero ID? I think you understand Binary too well... there is not only On and Off. With OIHID there certainly is only on or off. Activation of Powers does not require a seperate Power, whether you use OIHID or not. This is covered under Instant Change in the FAQ IIRC, and is a commonly understood aspect of the HERO System. They both get into their HERO ID by willing it to happen, and taking a Phase to change into their more powerful form. While they are in the their HID they can use or not use all of their OIHID powers as they wish, as is normal for Powers, and stay in their HID form until they will themselves to turn back into the their non HID form, which also takes a Phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 I think it's kind of an issue of confusing the cause and effect ... you change into your Hero ID to activate your powers. You don't activate the powers to turn into Hero ID. As an example, let's take classic Thor, who is, normally, Donald Blake, a pretty wimpy doctor (I know, this is REALLY out of date). Out of Hero ID, he has low-to-average stats except for his INT, and no powers. His character sheet would look like that of a Normal. Then, when he needs to, he can smack his cane twice on the ground. This is the trigger for him changing into his Hero ID. This, itself, is not written on the character sheet; it's part of the Hero ID limitation. After doing so, he gains access to that extra 90 or so STR bought 'Only In Hero ID', all the other stats and defenses and powers bought with OHID, looks different and probably has Instant Change to change from his suit into that spiffy Asgardian getup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Let me try this another way with some psuedo code Declare IsInHEROId boolean IsInHEROId is toggled by the SwitchForm event For each Power if OIHIDToggle= True then Power.Enabled = IsInHEROId Does that make it clearer? OIHID is a boolean toggle; you either are in your HID or you are not. Any ability bought OIHID is only enabled while HID is on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by CrosshairCollie and probably has Instant Change to change from his suit into that spiffy Asgardian getup. Even this is handled by OIHID. But otherwise, spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by melessqr How does he get In and Out of Hero ID? Which of his powers (useable in Hero ID) can he voluntarily turn Off and still be in Hero ID? I think you understand Binary too well... there is not only On and Off. Well, let's try this: Energy Blast, OIHID. When the character is in Hero ID (achieved through whatever means), he can fire his EB at will whenever he has an Action Phase. It's On or it's Off, but it's always available. When the character is not in Hero ID, the Energy Blast cannot be turned On at all, until after he assumes his Hero ID. It isn't available in his normal ID whether he has an action Phase in that ID or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted January 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Originally posted by Lord Liaden Well, let's try this: Energy Blast, OIHID. When the character is in Hero ID (achieved through whatever means), he can fire his EB at will whenever he has an Action Phase. It's On or it's Off, but it's always available. When the character is not in Hero ID, the Energy Blast cannot be turned On at all, until after he assumes his Hero ID. It isn't available in his normal ID whether he has an action Phase in that ID or not. Wonderful... I've got no problem with Instant powers and OIHID.. but what about the Persistant Powers? Thor's previously mentioned 90 strength... He can change into Thor and activate None of the Persistant Powers tha Make Him Thor. He could be Thor and still have the stats of his Normal form. At what point is he no longer Thor? Shouldn't there be a Minimum set of Powers that must be Active for him to remain Thor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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