tiger Posted March 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by tgaptte PRE attacks can be used to cause a target to change their mind...it's more a strong suggestion that may sway a target o behave a certain way, rather than "control" Yes it can, but a presence attack by nature, and most write-ups, is basically puffing out your chest and showing how tough/scary you are. The Mind trick isn't anywhere near that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osprey Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Originally posted by ShinDangaioh Don't forget that an active force user has unluck when near a pit. Obi-Wan died after crossing a pit Luke lost his hand over a pit Luke had his bionic hand damaged when near a pit Palpatine died by being thrown down a pit Vader died after throwing Palpatine down a pit Qui-Gon and Darth Maul died in a room with a pit Which begs the question, how do handle unluck that only applies part of the time? Disadvantage: Hunted by Pits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychoph Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Some other good powers that come out of the star wars books are: Energy absorption which Coran Horn has the ability to use. Pre Cognition or Visions Dark Side Powers would be like: EB Lightning Mind Control I am new to the hero system but converting Star wars over to it is what I have set out to do. Does anyone know any where I can get species templates for star wars for Hero Designer? If not I will be working on developing them as well as profession templates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by tiger Yes it can, but a presence attack by nature, and most write-ups, is basically puffing out your chest and showing how tough/scary you are. The Mind trick isn't anywhere near that. While that is the stereotype Presence Attack, perusal of FRED (pp. 238-239) suggests that a Presence Attack can be more subtle. "Out of combat, characters can use them to persuade, inspire, or interrogate NPCs." (Emphasis mine.) Later, "A character could use a Presence Attack to... persuade someone to help him." I have no problem with the SFX of a Presence Attack being something along the lines of the JMT, especially since the Jedi appear to be weak telepathically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted March 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by Peregrine While that is the stereotype Presence Attack, perusal of FRED (pp. 238-239) suggests that a Presence Attack can be more subtle. "Out of combat, characters can use them to persuade, inspire, or interrogate NPCs." (Emphasis mine.) Later, "A character could use a Presence Attack to... persuade someone to help him." I have no problem with the SFX of a Presence Attack being something along the lines of the JMT, especially since the Jedi appear to be weak telepathically. Yes, but there is a big difference between persuade and force. The mind trick forces people to do things. While Jedi's would definately be able to do these things, the mind trick forces them to do set things. Thus it would be mind control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 And how do you see the Jedi using force rather than persuasion? The most 'forceful' use of the JMT I've seen was in AOTC when Anakin tried to 'force' the assassin to reveal her employer. Add to that the Jedi philosophy, which is to use force as a last resort, while the JMT is commonly used as a 'first resort' when non-Force use has failed. I think that the JMT is a persuasive ability, rather than a 'take control and force compliance' ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted March 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Simple - Commonsense When you persuade someone to do something they don't repeat what you say. It's just Oh! your right and then they move on. Paraphrasing: Obi-wan: These aren't the droids your looking for Stormtrooper:These aren't the droids were looking for Luke: You will be rewarded for this Jabba's Aid: I will be rewarded for this. Paraphrasing again: And in Episode 1 the junkmans answer was why would I want to do that? Both examples would be forcing someone to do something not persuading These are examples or attempt at controling their minds not persuading them to do something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavnn Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 While I agree with both your logic and your conclusions, I don't see that making much difference to which mechanics you can choose to use. After all, against NPCs Mind Control and skill or PRE based Persuasion are pretty much the same thing mechanics wise (make some dice rolls, with penalties based on how opposed the person is to the course of action - if you succeed, they do what you want). Given the limits that seemed to be implied on the JMT, I think PRE would do a fairly good job of representing it - although I might want to add a -1/4 Mental Defense adds to PRE/EGO limitation on the PRE boost. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted March 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Another thing to consider is the MInd Trick suppose to only work on weaker minded people. Presense attacks pay no attention to weak or strong minds. This would also lead one to beleive that it is more inline with Mind Control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by tiger Another thing to consider is the MInd Trick suppose to only work on weaker minded people. Presense attacks pay no attention to weak or strong minds. This would also lead one to beleive that it is more inline with Mind Control. Beg pardon? "The total of the Presence Attack is compared to the defender's PRE or EGO (whichever is higher)..." (Emphasis mine.) EGO is the best single measure of strong/weak mind available in the HERO System, and PRE definitely has some mental-psychological aspect in addition to the obvious physical component. Thus, a person who is 'weak-minded' is one who has a lower EGO and PRE, thus rendering them more easily affected by a Presence Attack. In the end, though, it comes down to 'what works best in my/your campaign.' If you use Mind Control to represent the JMT, I'm not going to tell you that you're doing it wrong. Truth is, I'm still undecided, as both a Presence Attack and a low-effect (EGO or EGO + 10) Mind Control can achieve the effect shown in the films. The 'weak-minded' aspect of the JMT is easily represented by lower EGO and PRE, and fits either construct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted March 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Yep forgot the EGO can be used. However if you look at the effects none list anything that is remotely like the mind trick. Now while at the moment the only Hero system I have is the PDF for 4th edition. I don't recall reading anything in FRED that makes it sound like you can do a presence attack and NOT have the target know that you did something to effect them. Be it command or knocking a wall over etc. Locially if you base it on PRES there would be no reason why a non-jedi couldn't do the same ability. After all anyone can do a presence attack, while not everyone can do a mind control attack. Although a GM could rule that a Jedi would receive extra dice in a presence attack. As a player I would have a problem with this however. After all a presence attack is based on exactly that, your presence. If you give Jedi's extra dice then it there presence would be preceiveable by others. So it would be easy to spot a Jedi, something that isn't easy to do if they are trying to hide who and what they are. But if your gonna give a character a ability/power that is limited in access then they should pay points for it. Presence attacks are free. But as you said it's based on you campaign. It comes down to how you want to handle powers and abilities in your campaign. It's all about fun and enjoying the game. If it's easier and more enjoyable to make it a presence attack then that's they way you should do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavnn Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 To be honest, I was assuming the JMT would be a temporary boost to PRE in some kind of framework (although a Jedi should have a fairly impressive PRE anyway, in my opinion). And remember, other characters can do what the Jedi do, just with a different special effect - they can be the lovable rogue who can convince anyone of anything, for example. Largely, it all depends on taste . Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayoman Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 More Force Powers Without debating my choices I have attached a Hero Designer File that contains various Force Powers. Some of them I have taken from this thread and another thread or some websites. I maintain that I am trying to stay within the movies for my campaign (at first). I am not modeling the WEG version or the D20 version, however some of the powers may contain the same name as those models. I have included Locate Mind as a Force Power. I have done this so I would not have to include Megascale on the Mental Powers. I also include this so I can explain Vader using Force Choke on Admiral Ozzel in The Empire Strikes Back. I think when I get to Force Choke that I may just make it a RKA, BOECV, Indirect attack. Would this work for a Force Choke? Enjoy the powers. RayOMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayoman Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 I posted the Force Powers for those without Hero Designer in another thread. Here is the link to that thread. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5344&perpage=15&pagenumber=2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDaddy Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 an argument in favor of PRE attacks for the JMT. The JMT is immediate and temproary. You cannot JMT someone to do anything that takes more than a few seconds. Thus, the PRE attack is more suited. Make the PRE cost END to use, require a skill roll (force manipulation), gestures, whatever floats your boat. "These aren't the droids your looking for," and "you will be rewarded" are forms of persuasion. This looks like a classic presence attack. That it is done so casually indicates that it is a LOT of presence. my $.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDaddy Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 Peregrine - I was out of the loop for a while. What happenned at the end of the Days Of Which We Do Not Speak?I seem to recall a barbarian invasion of some sort... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDaddy Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 on the Hero System Discussion Board, Lord Liaden has posted a link to an essay about the use of HUGE presence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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