"Fixing" STRength

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

Of course. At 3 pts per point of dex, it'd be rather expensive if it didn't.

 

Yes, well, I just didn't want to assume.

[Mike W]

I think one of the things that people are forgetting is how these stats affect things other than DEX. Yes, buying 5 points of CON for 10 points gets you 10.5 points of figured Characteristics but what else can you do with it. Well, you can resist CON stun, but other than that nothing. So why shouldn't you get more figured characteristics for CON? BODY is another case. Other than letting you take more BODY damage, what does it do? Well, you get that point of STUN. Any skills based on it? No. Does it add to any other figured charactersitic? No. Does it affect anything else in any way? No. So why should it cost any more than it does?

 

Part of balancing these skills is what they can do besides affect characteristics? Why is DEX more than EGO when both affect your CV? Well, two reasons obviously come to mind. First, DEX has a lot more skills based off of it than EGO. Second, DEX affects SPD. Of course, you need to make EGO rolls to resist psy lims or push. These make up some of the difference but to the average character DEX is still more useful so it costs more. If you really look at EVERYTHING they affect - skill rolls, figured characteristics, and various other game mechanics - the stats balance out just fine at the costs they're at.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Mike W

If you really look at EVERYTHING they affect - skill rolls, figured characteristics, and various other game mechanics - the stats balance out just fine at the costs they're at.

 

Except STR.

[Mike W]

No, I'd include STR on the list. Sure you get a lot of bang for your buck but again, it costs the same as a typical primary attack(EB for example) and the extra characteristics you get are balanced by all of the things you can do with the other attacks that you can't do with strength.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Actually, there is a lot argument that Dex is too cheap as is. It's certainly a lot cheaper and more effective than buying levels and lightning reflexes would be.

 

It is generally more costly to cherry pick, as it should be. The question then comes down to how much more expensive it should be to "assemble" DEX from its component benefits.

 

Originally posted by Gary

What I would personally favor would be to get rid of figured characteristics altogether. And I do favor pricing some of the figured characteristics lower. Here's how I would price the stats with no figureds:

 

This is another option. It basically makes all characters more expensive (absent pricing changes, of course), since virtually all characters benefit from pricing adjustments in some way - I see very few characters with 10 (or less) STR, DEX, CON and BOD.

 

Looking at individual prices you propose, I note the following:

 

"Str 1"

 

This is obviously the big one. STR and EB are the two basic attack powers. Let's compare. STR gives you 1d6 per 5 points, a "multipower" with an Entangle that is not targeted automatically (Grab), a limited Ranged attack (objects of opportunity, and aerodynamics issues) and lifting/carrying capacity. It also grants Figureds, but not in this model.

 

EB gets the same 1d6 per 5 points. It also grants range, and a "multipower" allowing each d6 to be swapped for +1 OCV (normally 1d6 costs 2 OCV levels) or 1 hex of Selective Area.

 

Absent figured characteristics, I would say STR is the loser here. The EB has greater versatility than STR. But what's the next breakpoint? STR definitely should not be 1/2 point each! Maybe it should be 4 CP per 5 STR.

 

"Dex 3"

 

I'm not unhappy with DEX as is, so I'd price it at 2. "DEX no figured" would be -1/2 - breakeven.

 

"Con 1"

 

This is probably about right. It implies that, at present, CON w/o figureds is overpriced. That's probably true, actually. Have you ever seen anyone buy "CON no figured" at -1/2? Maybe it should even be cheaper - all it does is provide the occasional CON roll, and defend against STUN results. Maybe CON should have "no figured" as a -1 1/2, such that every 5 points of CON costs 4 points without figureds, and generates 6 points worth of figureds.

 

"Body 1"

 

No arguments here. And BOD - no figured should be a -1 limitation. Again, pure break even.

 

"Int 1

Ego 2

Pre 1

Com (irrelevant)

PD 1

ED 1

Spd 10"

 

No changes from the present model, and I agree.

 

"Rec 1

End 1/3

Stun 1/2"

 

Again, agree. I could go to 1/4 for END, but that's minor.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Con, Body, and Stun would be considered "defense" powers for adjustment purposes.

 

I would add END. END drains are extremely effective. Gary, would you reprice END batteries? I'd be inclined to halve their REC cost, but leave END the same as a large break is already achieved here, and END in a battery has some advantages (most notably still being there when you wake up with 1 STUN).

 

Originally posted by Gary

The one big problem with repricing Stun like this is that it makes Damage Reduction extremely effective, perhaps too effective.

 

Damage reduction for Bricks is pretty effective now, especially if the Brick has a high CON.

 

So, assume we want to keep some measure of Figured Char, and want a "10 everything" character to be equivalent. All stats keep the same cost, except REC, STUN and END which are repriced as set out above. What figureds should stats provide on this basis?

 

DEX is fine as 1/10 SPD (or reprice it as 2 per DEX and divorce it from SPD entirely).

 

BOD - let's make STUN 2x BOD. Thus, 2 CP spent on BOD grants +1 BOD (1 point) and +2 STUN (1 point). BOD no figured is -1, or BOD becomes a 1 point stat that grants no figured's.

 

STR: For now, let's keep the link to PD only, and make "No Figured" -1/4. Each 5 STR grants 1 PD, and you save 1 point per 5 STR taking "no figured".

 

That leaves CON. Well, we've already linked STUN to BOD, so that's dealt with. We'll use 15 CON as our base for illustration. The cost is 30 points, and should be 12 with no figureds based on my analysis above. We need 18 points of Figured's. Leave ED at CON/5 for consistency. That's 3 points. Leave END 2x CON - that's 10 points at our new value for END. hmmm...make REC CON/2.5 (so it still starts at 4) and 15 CON adds 6 REC. That's 19 figured, a bit higher than I want (but probably liveable). Make it CON/3 and define it to always round up (so we still base at 4 for normals; or normals drop to a 3 - how often do we let them recover anyway?) and we get 5 REC from +15. That's 18.

 

OK, PROPOSED REBALANCING:

 

STR: Cost 1 point; grants +1 PD/5 points; -1/4 for "no figured"

 

DEX: Cost 3 points; grants +1 SPD/10 points; -1/2 for "no figured" (no one ever takes this now, by the way)

 

CON: Cost 2 points; grants +1 ED/5 points, +1 REC/3 points and +2 END per point; -1 1/2 for No Figured.

 

BOD: Cost 2 points; grants +2 STUN per point; -1 for "no figured"

 

REC costs 1 point, STUN 1/2 point and END 1/3 point.

 

I see some advantages to this approach. First, each Figured now feeds from only one stat. BOD makes one harder to KO. STR and CON do not (at least not directly). Why should they? You can have a 30 STR fighter with a glass jaw! CON grants END and REC - healthier people can exert themselves longer and recover faster, which delays KO indirectly, but not directly by feeding STUN.

 

Each stat provides a cost savings for "no figureds" equal to the figured's granted, so no more "cheaper to buy the stat than the figureds" dilemma. STR provides much less in the way of figured, both because it's fairly cheap and because it's got a lot of other uses. Stamina now links directly to CON and has nothing to do with STR, which seems appropriate.

 

Non-Bricks can now have a higher STUN, REC or END at lower cost, which will change the balance across the board. OK, people won't tire out as fast and may be motivated to raise STUN instead of defenses - that's not, overall, a bad change.

 

Coming back to your model, Gary, I think you're overpricing STR, DEX and CON. STR and CON would be hard to fix without using figured's, since I think you'd need fractional costs (4/5 per point).

 

I would define STUN, REC and END as defensive powers. I leave CON and BOD out because, due to figured's, their cost is double in my model over yours. STUN and REC now cost exactly the same to Drain or AID as before. END costs a bit more, making it a bit less costly to change COM than END - which feels right to me!

 

Finally, with this change, I would say characteristics with limitations should either grant figured's or get the added limitation.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

It is generally more costly to cherry pick, as it should be. The question then comes down to how much more expensive it should be to "assemble" DEX from its component benefits.

 

The benefits you get right now for Dex are just way out of whack with its cost. Right now, 5 pts gets you +1 CSL with Hand to Hand, Range, or DCV. That's +1 OCV, +1 DCV (limited), or +1/2 DC. 6 pts gets you +3 Dex after the Spd savings. That gets you +1 OCV, +1 DCV, +3 initiative, +3/5 Agility skill rolls, and +3/5 generic Dex rolls. The comparison to 8 pt CSLs is even more out of whack (although you can use them for ECV as well). You get so much for Dex currently that changing the cost to 3 pts each without Spd is very justified.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This is another option. It basically makes all characters more expensive (absent pricing changes, of course), since virtually all characters benefit from pricing adjustments in some way - I see very few characters with 10 (or less) STR, DEX, CON and BOD.

 

Looking at individual prices you propose, I note the following:

 

"Str 1"

 

This is obviously the big one. STR and EB are the two basic attack powers. Let's compare. STR gives you 1d6 per 5 points, a "multipower" with an Entangle that is not targeted automatically (Grab), a limited Ranged attack (objects of opportunity, and aerodynamics issues) and lifting/carrying capacity. It also grants Figureds, but not in this model.

 

EB gets the same 1d6 per 5 points. It also grants range, and a "multipower" allowing each d6 to be swapped for +1 OCV (normally 1d6 costs 2 OCV levels) or 1 hex of Selective Area.

 

Absent figured characteristics, I would say STR is the loser here. The EB has greater versatility than STR. But what's the next breakpoint? STR definitely should not be 1/2 point each! Maybe it should be 4 CP per 5 STR.

 

Str also gives you 1" Leap for free. It also gives you a "free" casual str that allows you to ignore weak grabs/entangles. That should cover any discrepancies with EB.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

"Dex 3"

 

I'm not unhappy with DEX as is, so I'd price it at 2. "DEX no figured" would be -1/2 - breakeven.

 

Personally, I like it at 3. Even at 3, it's still a mild bargain, depending on how many agility skills you may have.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

"Con 1"

 

This is probably about right. It implies that, at present, CON w/o figureds is overpriced. That's probably true, actually. Have you ever seen anyone buy "CON no figured" at -1/2? Maybe it should even be cheaper - all it does is provide the occasional CON roll, and defend against STUN results. Maybe CON should have "no figured" as a -1 1/2, such that every 5 points of CON costs 4 points without figureds, and generates 6 points worth of figureds.

 

Nobody should ever buy "Con no figureds". It's simply not worthwhile. +15 Con no figureds costs 20 pts. +15 Con after selling off the End costs 15 pts, and gives you +3 PD, +3 Rec, and +7.5 Stun. The second option is both cheaper, and gives you a lot more.

 

I personally think resisting STUN results is worth 1 for 1. That's the quickest way for a character to be taken out of a fight, especially in a 1 on 1 situation.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I would add END. END drains are extremely effective. Gary, would you reprice END batteries? I'd be inclined to halve their REC cost, but leave END the same as a large break is already achieved here, and END in a battery has some advantages (most notably still being there when you wake up with 1 STUN).

 

I would agree to halve the Rec cost of End Reserves. The current 10 for 1 is already generous, so I wouldn't touch that. End drains don't bother me that much, since the target still has time to react and it's not a one shot knockout.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Damage reduction for Bricks is pretty effective now, especially if the Brick has a high CON.

 

Stun at 1/2 will make DR twice as effective. 3/4 DR essentially multiplies Stun by 4. So 1 character point effectively gives you 4 pts of Stun at the current cost, and 8 pts under the new cost. I don't know a good solution for this.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

So, assume we want to keep some measure of Figured Char, and want a "10 everything" character to be equivalent. All stats keep the same cost, except REC, STUN and END which are repriced as set out above. What figureds should stats provide on this basis?

 

DEX is fine as 1/10 SPD (or reprice it as 2 per DEX and divorce it from SPD entirely).

 

I'd keep Dex at 3 for 1 and get rid of the figured. As for the rest of your post, I agree that it can work. It certainly has a closer "cost = usefulness" factor than the current system.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Coming back to your model, Gary, I think you're overpricing STR, DEX and CON. STR and CON would be hard to fix without using figured's, since I think you'd need fractional costs (4/5 per point).

 

With Str, the free Leap and casual Str balances out the slightly less overall usefulness compared to EB. With Dex, it currently is a great bargain. At 3 for 1 without figureds, it's still a mild bargain. As for Con, I think we can simply agree to disagree over the utility of resisting STUN results. I see it as 1 for 1 value, and you see it as something less.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I would define STUN, REC and END as defensive powers. I leave CON and BOD out because, due to figured's, their cost is double in my model over yours. STUN and REC now cost exactly the same to Drain or AID as before. END costs a bit more, making it a bit less costly to change COM than END - which feels right to me!

 

Rec and End drains don't bother me, and wouldn't bother me even if they're recosted. Right now, a combat Rec drain is virtually useless. There are lots of better things to drain for that 2 for 1 cost. The Stun part I would agree with.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Finally, with this change, I would say characteristics with limitations should either grant figured's or get the added limitation.

 

Not in all cases. Suppose someone buys 10 Str at X10 end cost for 2 pts. That's the same price as +2 PD, but you get the enhanced push for free under your system. It does have to be taken on a case by case basis.

[Hugh Neilson]

On DEX, CON and STR costs, I think we have to agree to disagree. Even with Leap and Casual STR, I don't see 5 pts STR, no figured, as equivalent to 1d6 EB. On CON and STR, we're pretty close (1 point vs 0.8 points). On DEX, we're further apart.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Nobody should ever buy "Con no figureds". It's simply not worthwhile. +15 Con no figureds costs 20 pts.

 

Which is why bone must come to the conclusion that a -1/2 limitation is not sufficient - the character loses far more. Therefore, the limitation should be higher. My "rewrite", above, would result in CON for stunning purposes costing 0.8 points per +1. The additional 1.2 points is realized in REC, ED and END.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I would agree to halve the Rec cost of End Reserves. The current 10 for 1 is already generous, so I wouldn't touch that. End drains don't bother me that much, since the target still has time to react and it's not a one shot knockout.

 

60 pt END drain = 6d6 = 18d6 of END with END repriced to 3:1. That would average 63 END. Every 2 END below zero = 14d6 STUN with no defense. A character with 50 END loses all his END and (on average) 23 STUN in one average shot. This assumes he has no power defense, and has used no END. To me, that's too much. Hence, END as a "defensive power".

 

[Even the current system makes it 12d6 of END drained which will average 42 END, most or all of many characters' END totals.]

 

Originally posted by Gary

Stun at 1/2 will make DR twice as effective. 3/4 DR essentially multiplies Stun by 4. So 1 character point effectively gives you 4 pts of Stun at the current cost, and 8 pts under the new cost. I don't know a good solution for this.

 

This is why damage reduction is effective now. The only solution is judicious review of characters, and assessing the impact of damage reduction before allowing it. This is the case whether the system is changed or not.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Rec and End drains don't bother me, and wouldn't bother me even if they're recosted. Right now, a combat Rec drain is virtually useless. There are lots of better things to drain for that 2 for 1 cost. The Stun part I would agree with.

 

Make that REC drain long term. For 60 points, 3d6 REC drain, recover once per hour. At a revised cost of 1 for REC, the typical target will have all his REC wiped out in two hits (21+ REC is pretty rare in my experience). Many will see it all gone in one hit (especially with a good roll).

 

It's not commonly taken because it's a support power. It won't take a target out alone, but it has a devestating effect, especially in longer combats. If the cost is halved, I would double the cost of draining it to cmpensate. It remains powerful.

 

[hmmm...REC Suppress, Selective Area, Continuous, only unconscious targets...OUCH!!!]

 

Originally posted by Gary

Not in all cases. Suppose someone buys 10 Str at X10 end cost for 2 pts. That's the same price as +2 PD, but you get the enhanced push for free under your system. It does have to be taken on a case by case basis.

 

Costs END is the only problematic limitation I can see. I would suggest the character benefits from the figured CHAR only if he spends the END for the STR. Problem solved - getting 2 PD for a cost of 10 END per phase seems like much less of a bargain. Alternatively, simply mandate that this character MUST take "no figured". 10/5 = 2. 10/5.25 = 2. And buying +10 STR at x10 END expecting to access extra PD is simply not reasonable in any case, so I have no compunctions about shutting it down either way.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

On DEX, CON and STR costs, I think we have to agree to disagree. Even with Leap and Casual STR, I don't see 5 pts STR, no figured, as equivalent to 1d6 EB. On CON and STR, we're pretty close (1 point vs 0.8 points). On DEX, we're further apart.

 

With Str, you can simply sell back Leap and get 4 pts per 1d6. That makes the cost fully equivalent.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Which is why bone must come to the conclusion that a -1/2 limitation is not sufficient - the character loses far more. Therefore, the limitation should be higher. My "rewrite", above, would result in CON for stunning purposes costing 0.8 points per +1. The additional 1.2 points is realized in REC, ED and END.

 

.8 and 1 pt per point isn't far enough apart to worry about. I'd rather keep the 1 pt for simplicity sake. Plus, I think resisting Con Stun is a very useful ability.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

60 pt END drain = 6d6 = 18d6 of END with END repriced to 3:1. That would average 63 END. Every 2 END below zero = 14d6 STUN with no defense. A character with 50 END loses all his END and (on average) 23 STUN in one average shot. This assumes he has no power defense, and has used no END. To me, that's too much. Hence, END as a "defensive power".

 

[Even the current system makes it 12d6 of END drained which will average 42 END, most or all of many characters' END totals.]

 

End drains won't cause you to lose Stun. You'll only lose Stun if you spend End while at 0 or below.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This is why damage reduction is effective now. The only solution is judicious review of characters, and assessing the impact of damage reduction before allowing it. This is the case whether the system is changed or not.

 

Agreed. However, Stun at 1/2 magnifies the problem. You have to watch DR even more closely than under the current system.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Make that REC drain long term. For 60 points, 3d6 REC drain, recover once per hour. At a revised cost of 1 for REC, the typical target will have all his REC wiped out in two hits (21+ REC is pretty rare in my experience). Many will see it all gone in one hit (especially with a good roll).

 

It's not commonly taken because it's a support power. It won't take a target out alone, but it has a devestating effect, especially in longer combats. If the cost is halved, I would double the cost of draining it to cmpensate. It remains powerful.

 

[hmmm...REC Suppress, Selective Area, Continuous, only unconscious targets...OUCH!!!]

 

You still have to take the target out first. And if the target is below -10, it won't matter except Post 12. And outside combat, it doesn't matter how many dice you have. 1d6 is quite sufficient vs unconscious foes. I doubt Rec drains would become overly powerful even with the repricing.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Costs END is the only problematic limitation I can see. I would suggest the character benefits from the figured CHAR only if he spends the END for the STR. Problem solved - getting 2 PD for a cost of 10 END per phase seems like much less of a bargain. Alternatively, simply mandate that this character MUST take "no figured". 10/5 = 2. 10/5.25 = 2. And buying +10 STR at x10 END expecting to access extra PD is simply not reasonable in any case, so I have no compunctions about shutting it down either way.

 

Or you can keep the current guidelines where you only get Figureds for Limited Characteristics if the Limitation also limits the Figureds as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

With Str, you can simply sell back Leap and get 4 pts per 1d6. That makes the cost fully equivalent.

 

I'm not sure you can, actually. Leap is the only movement ability in the bestiary that's sold back as a disadvantage rather than a straight reduction in points paid for other items. You get the same points, but since points gained from disadvantages are capped, you may not get the same benefit.

 

EDIT: Questioned on the rules board and Steve confirms it's safe to assume that's official, although some GM's may apply different rules.

 

But Leap is certainly an issue. If we make "does not enhance leap" a -1/4 limitation (just like "no figured" if we reduce the figureds to PD only), we get STR no leap, no figured to equal the cost of a hand attack. Seems reasonable (the only issue to resolve is carying capacity, but that can be counted as the "special effect" of extra STR, as opposed to a Fire HA which lights combustibles).

 

Originally posted by Gary

End drains won't cause you to lose Stun. You'll only lose Stun if you spend End while at 0 or below.

 

I think you're right on that one (although the FAQ is unclear in that "negative END" has a defined effect). But if all your END is gone after the first phase of combat, what will you be doing for the rest of the battle (assuming your powers aren't 0 END). And that END drain is likely in a multipower of effects, or simply added in with the "affects multipole characteristics simultaneously" advantage.

 

Originally posted by Gary

However, Stun at 1/2 magnifies the problem. You have to watch DR even more closely than under the current system.

 

No, I need to watch buyup of STUN more closely. Damage Reduction is always a "watch out for" anyway. If purchased for someone with high defenses and/or high Stun, it will be an issue. Damage Reduction is also a very effective means of avoiding Con Stun, and making a low def chatacrer with a bit of regeneration more likely to survive.

 

Originally posted by Gary

You still have to take the target out first. And if the target is below -10, it won't matter except Post 12.

 

How much END can you spend with no REC? Hey, let's add it to that "drain multiple characteristics" power! With no END, many characters have the happy choice of standing still or knocking themselves out. No REC means that END won't be back any time soon (although you'll get a big 10 back every PS 12, assuming no delay in the fade rate). And I see many combats go past a turn, so PS 12 recoveries are reasonably common.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I'm not sure you can, actually. Leap is the only movement ability in the bestiary that's sold back as a disadvantage rather than a straight reduction in points paid for other items. You get the same points, but since points gained from disadvantages are capped, you may not get the same benefit.

 

EDIT: Questioned on the rules board and Steve confirms it's safe to assume that's official, although some GM's may apply different rules.

 

But Leap is certainly an issue. If we make "does not enhance leap" a -1/4 limitation (just like "no figured" if we reduce the figureds to PD only), we get STR no leap, no figured to equal the cost of a hand attack. Seems reasonable (the only issue to resolve is carying capacity, but that can be counted as the "special effect" of extra STR, as opposed to a Fire HA which lights combustibles).

 

Since we're speaking of a hypothetical situation where we're repricing characteristics, there's nothing stopping us from declaring that Leap can be sold back as part of the package to balance Str with EB.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I think you're right on that one (although the FAQ is unclear in that "negative END" has a defined effect). But if all your END is gone after the first phase of combat, what will you be doing for the rest of the battle (assuming your powers aren't 0 END). And that END drain is likely in a multipower of effects, or simply added in with the "affects multipole characteristics simultaneously" advantage.

 

That merely makes End drain an effective power, not overly effective. The "typical" direct attack power either takes 2-4 phases to knock out a typical opponent, or disconfits or harasses that opponent for 2-4 phases. The End drain seems to me to not be overly powerful compared to such attack powers.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

No, I need to watch buyup of STUN more closely. Damage Reduction is always a "watch out for" anyway. If purchased for someone with high defenses and/or high Stun, it will be an issue. Damage Reduction is also a very effective means of avoiding Con Stun, and making a low def chatacrer with a bit of regeneration more likely to survive.

 

DR would definitely be a more valuable purchase if Stun costs 1/2. As I said, you merely need to watch it more closely with Stun at that price.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

How much END can you spend with no REC? Hey, let's add it to that "drain multiple characteristics" power! With no END, many characters have the happy choice of standing still or knocking themselves out. No REC means that END won't be back any time soon (although you'll get a big 10 back every PS 12, assuming no delay in the fade rate). And I see many combats go past a turn, so PS 12 recoveries are reasonably common.

 

That drain to multiple characteristics is at least a 1/2 advantage. Thus, it becomes unlikely that you'll completely drain the defender's End in one shot. And it's an action that you're using that isn't being used for a regular attack. Rec drains would actually become a viable attack, unlike the current situation where it's pretty useless in combat. However, I dispute that it'd be more valuable than other drains would be. Spd, Int, and Pre drains come to mind as being pretty devastating.