Help Create the Instant Sword Spell Please

[Arthur]

Sorry, but I don't get the issue.

 

This is really not that much different than Wolverine popping his claws out. It's as if Wolverine maybe had to make Skill Roll to get them out.

 

Once they are out, they can be used normally.

 

Just because the HKA Power is Instant has no bearing on it. You seem to be trying to apply the Instant part to the Special Effect.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Arthur

Sorry, but I don't get the issue.

 

This is really not that much different than Wolverine popping his claws out. It's as if Wolverine maybe had to make Skill Roll to get them out.

 

Once they are out, they can be used normally.

 

Just because the HKA Power is Instant has no bearing on it. You seem to be trying to apply the Instant part to the Special Effect.

The difference is that Wolvie has his HKA via a permanent power, so he activates them each phase he uses them as a 0 Phase action and it's thus a moot point. A "spell" on the other hand with incantations and gestures and/or other activation limitations would have to go thru all of that rigamarole each time they wanted to use the HKA because its an Instant effect and thus must be reactivated with each use.

 

If the player wants the HKA to be activated like a spell with these limitations, but doesnt want to have to keep reactivating it then he needs to make the HKA stick around somehow between phases so that once activated it stays on. To do this requires either Continuous or Lingering by the rules. If you chose to hand-waive it as the GM thats your call, but it's not book-legal.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

"spell" on the other hand with incantations and gestures and/or other activation limitations would have to go thru all of that rigamarole each time they wanted to use the HKA because its an Instant effect and thus must be reactivated with each use.

 

It's just a matter of how you define the Power Modifiers. So it may not be "Requires a Skill Roll" or "Instant" or whatever as exactly described.

 

So what?

 

One of the ways to make Hero unnecessarily difficult is to try to shoehorn every effect into the existing list of Advantages and Limitations.

 

It's much easier to define exactly how you want the power to behave in the first place. Next step is to see if it can be done with the Modifiers that are listed. If not, then just make up your own Modifiers! Often, it can be just a twist on an existing Modifier.

 

For instance, in this case, RSR may be a modified version that is half value.

[devlin1]

Originally posted by Arthur

 

For instance, in this case, RSR may be a modified version that is half value. [/b]

 

Well, yeah, I guess. If you wanted to, you could say that RSR only applies the first time you bring the thing into existence, and that it stays around until it's not fun anymore, but that all assumes a pretty liberal GM and a correspondingly liberal interpretation of the rules. Which is all cool, if that's the kind of game you have, but I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to build it in such a way that it actually does make sense with all existing published rules. I think it's reasonable to assume that's what the original poster was asking for in the first place, and I think a few valid options have been presented.

 

I understand what you're saying-- if he wants the HKA, the sword just appears in his hand and he has at it-- but if you want to build the power with RSR, Gestures, Limitations, and all that other FH spellcasting hoo-ha, along with those conditions listed which are rather unique to this particular power, something a little more specific is called for.

 

In any event, I think the original poster has certainly gotten his money's worth!

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Arthur

It's just a matter of how you define the Power Modifiers. So it may not be "Requires a Skill Roll" or "Instant" or whatever as exactly described.

 

So what?

So its not legal by the rules. If you bend the rules then why have the rules?

 

If you want an Instant Power and you want to apply activation limitations to it and then not have to actually activate the power repeatedly you can very simply apply either Continuous to make the Power Constant or Lingering to allow you to reuse it without needing to reactivate.

 

If you choose not to do that, then you shouldnt get the limitation values of the activation limitations, because you arent abiding by them.

 

Originally posted by Arthur

One of the ways to make Hero unnecessarily difficult is to try to shoehorn every effect into the existing list of Advantages and Limitations.

The modifiers exist to allow one to correctly model powers. If you choose not to use them than thats your business, but its similar to choosing not to use your turn signals -- you still get into the other lane, but you are breaking the rules as written.

 

Further, adding a single Advantage (Continuous or Lingering, your choice) isnt "unnecessarily difficult", or an attempt to shoehorn anything. The exact effect of a Instant attack which is reusable without needing to be reactivated is exactly what Lingering is for, and is also covered by Continuous with a little tweaking as indicated on page 258 of Fantasy HERO (under the Repeated Use Instant Spells header).

 

Originally posted by Arthur

It's much easier to define exactly how you want the power to behave in the first place. Next step is to see if it can be done with the Modifiers that are listed. If not, then just make up your own Modifiers! Often, it can be just a twist on an existing Modifier.

 

For instance, in this case, RSR may be a modified version that is half value.

Lingering is an existing Modifier, which is listed, and intended precisely for this situation no twisting necessary. Continuous is also listed and can be twisted to cover this as you prefer, with a pre-defined way to do it explained.

[Killer Shrike]

Instant and Constant powers are explained on page 69 of FRED, as a point of reference.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

So its not legal by the rules. If you bend the rules then why have the rules?

 

It's legal by the rules if I define the modifiers correctly. There may be a balance issue if I don't price the modifiers right, but that's not quite the same thing.

 

This is so close to a standard HKA, it shouldn't require all this hoop-jumping.

 

The rules are there to serve me, not to be my master.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Arthur

 

It's legal by the rules if I define the modifiers correctly. There may be a balance issue if I don't price the modifiers right, but that's not quite the same thing.

And the correctly defined modifiers would be either Lingering or Continuous, or not having activation limiations on an Instant Power at all.

 

Originally posted by Arthur

This is so close to a standard HKA, it shouldn't require all this hoop-jumping.

No it isnt, it's a limited HKA, which you would prefer not to actually limit as intended by the rules of the limitations placed upon it.

 

Originally posted by Arthur

The rules are there to serve me, not to be my master.

If a rule exists to do exactly what is intended, then why ignore it?

[devlin1]

Originally posted by Arthur

The rules are there to serve me, not to be my master. [/b]

 

True. It all depends on your point of view. I want the rules to serve me by helping me build powers as accurately and correctly as possible. In fact, I even consider this to be an interesting challenge. And so I seek to be the master of the rules, and make them serve me like the prison-bitch they are.

 

I'm sorry-- what were we talking about?

[Arthur]

I want to create a spell that creates a sword (HKA) out of thin air. Now it is a spell so to create the sword requires the a magic skill roll, and the expenditure of mana (END Reserve).

 

Now that the sword is made I want it to be there all day. At no cost in mana and I don’t want to have to make a magic skill roll every time I use the sword. But I want the sword to act like a normal sword (only for the creator), that means the only end it cost is for the STR that is used.

 

See now, this looks to me like a very standard HKA with a Focus, after it has been conjured. The only clarification I can think of at this point would be to ask what happens if the wielder is disarmed. Does the sword disappear? If not, what happens when someone else tries to pick it up?

 

Assuming it disappears, this is how I would do it:

 

1d HKA.

 

RSR: -1/4 (halved because it is required only to activate the sword).

Costs END only to activate: -1/4.

OAF: -1

 

AP = 15

RP = 6

 

Now an HKA costs END anyway. The extra Lim is for the activation END.

 

I think some of you are taking the whole Instant/Constant thing a little too far. In this case, the FOCUS is Constant while the attack is Instant. That's true for any HKA with a Focus. Do you really want to jump through all those hoops for any Focus HKA? If not, why only for this case? Once the sword is conjured and in the caster's hand, it is just an HKA with an OAF. It is created in an unusual fashion, but that only applies when it is created.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Arthur

I think some of you are taking the whole Instant/Constant thing a little too far. In this case, the FOCUS is Constant while the attack is Instant. That's true for any HKA with a Focus. Do you really want to jump through all those hoops for any Focus HKA? If not, why only for this case? Once the sword is conjured and in the caster's hand, it is just an HKA with an OAF. It is created in an unusual fashion, but that only applies when it is created.

 

You need a focus to ACTIVATE a power; you dont get a focus AFTER you've activated the power thats in the focus. This is what Physical Manifestation is for -- it is like a Focus, but it is created by the activation of a power rather than the other way around.

 

 

If you put OAF: Sword on this spell then you would need a sword in your hand to cast the spell, and If you already have a Focus which is a sword why would you need to cast a spell to "summon" a sword -- you're already holding one in your hand.

 

When you have RSR you have to roll to activate the power that it is on. With Instant powers that means you have to roll each time you use it. If you dont do this, then the RSR is not limiting the power in the fashion intended by the rules and should not legally be allowed.

[Killer Shrike]

Also, as a side note, Costs END only to Activate is only applicable to Constant Powers. It has no meaning to Instant powers because you activate them each time you use them and thus pay END each time.

 

Honestly, and not trying to be a jerk here, but I think you should sit down and read thru the differences between Instant and Constant powers.

[Killer Shrike]

Also, a focus isnt "CONSTANT" -- its not a power, its only a modifier to a power. A focus is an activation condition for a power -- to activate the power you have to have the focus. That doesnt make it or the power its applied to "constant". The power is still "instant" if originally an instant power, and is still activated each time you use it.

 

While a focus can be attacked or taken at anytime (whether the power in it is activated or not) that doesnt have anything to do with the Instant or Constant state of the power that is in the focus -- that is just part of the limitation of focus and why its worth a larger limitation than some other activation limitations such as Gestures and Incantations -- its easier to deprive the character of a focus by attacking or taking it.

[Arthur]

Maybe you are technically correct by a strict reading of the rules.

 

However, I play Hero as a game, not a legal dissertation. Granted, if you ignore the rules too much, then it stops being Hero.

 

I don't think my approach is anywhere near that.

 

This strikes me as a good example of why it's so hard to attract new players.

 

I, too, went through that phase of trying to write everything up as rules-purist as possible. Then it dawned on me that it could easily become a lot of extra effort for little or no return in play-balance.

 

Out of curiousity, how many points does your method come out to be? Is it really that much different than mine, bottom line?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Arthur

Maybe you are technically correct by a strict reading of the rules.

 

However, I play Hero as a game, not a legal dissertation. Granted, if you ignore the rules too much, then it stops being Hero.

 

I don't think my approach is anywhere near that..

What Im asking is why, when there is a simple and straightforward rule (Lingering or "Repeated Use Instant Spells" using Continuous) custom made to cover the exact situation desired, you would prefer to instead mangle other rules rather than use it? Is it because the solution is Advantage based rather than Limitation based as you seem to prefer with your suggested (and illegal) method?

 

 

Originally posted by Arthur

This strikes me as a good example of why it's so hard to attract new players.

 

Try not to veer into oblique personal attacks, please. You may have trouble attracting new players, but I seldom do. I maintain a full table of 4 to 6 players and occasionally even have people waiting for a slot to open up at the table.

 

Do I hand wave things when it seems appropriate? Yes. Do I have house rules? Yes. Do I muff up the rules now and then? Yes. But I like to try to adhere to the rules as much as possible, particularly in such a clear cut case of [Desired Effect] = Round Hole and [Available Rule] = Round Peg as this.

 

 

Originally posted by Arthur

I, too, went through that phase of trying to write everything up as rules-purist as possible. Then it dawned on me that it could easily become a lot of extra effort for little or no return in play-balance.

 

Im not going through any "phase" to write things up in any particular way, and your intimation that when I have your lofty experience with the system Ill suddenly realize, like you apparantly do, that the rules of the game are there to be applied or not at a whim or that its better to attempt to stretch and distort completely different and inapplicable rules to model a power construct (which is a far more complicated approach by they way) rather than just use the rule provided to handle the exact effect desired is inappropriate.

 

I've been playing HEROs now for going on 15 years. Trying to use the rules correctly isnt a phase, its a best-practices SOP.

 

Originally posted by Arthur

Out of curiousity, how many points does your method come out to be? Is it really that much different than mine, bottom line?

I listed a suggested method using Lingering and lasting one day previously. IIRC the total cost worked out to be 33 RC for a 1 day long Lingering 2d6 HKA which wouldnt make much sense in a supers campaign (as the character would just pay 30 or less for a 2d6 HKA w/o Activation limitations), but is not unreasonable in a fantasy setting where Powers are not commonly available.

 

Personally, I wouldnt worry about the 1 day part if I were the player, opting for several 1 Minute charges since few HERO's combats take a full Minute of game time to complete, but they asked for all day so I provided all day.

 

Also, the provided example is just a way to do it. There are of course other equally legal methods. I was merely taking the opportunity to introduce the poster to a rule he may not be aware of as it appears in Fantasy HERO (because it handles a situation which rarely occurs among supers and such, but regularly comes up in fantasy).

[Demonsong]

In a way I am incline to agree with Arthur. KS I have no rule to point to that says your wrong. Quite the contrary everything I read points to your approach as being the correct one. However it just doesn’t feel right. It seems like we are trying to over complicate the issue. There should be an easier way to work this out. This is something (that from my point of view) looks like it should be relatively to do.

 

1D6+1 HKA

+1/2 END =0

30 points

 

I can define this Special effect as my sword. I am done! I can never loose it, it cannot be taken away or be broken.

 

Now if I want a special effect that states I have to activate it and make a skill role to do so. It should be cheaper. Why would I want to pile on unneeded advantages so I can put on other disadvantages (like charges)?

 

I just want a magic sword spell I didn’t mean to start a fight

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Arthur

This strikes me as a good example of why it's so hard to attract new players.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Try not to veer into oblique personal attacks, please. You may have trouble attracting new players, but I seldom do. I maintain a full table of 4 to 6 players and occasionally even have people waiting for a slot to open up at the table.

 

I don’t think this was a personal attack. I think he was saying that The Hero System in general has a problem getting new players because it can be so over whelming. This is a commonly excepted fact.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Demonsong

In a way I am incline to agree with Arthur. KS I have no rule to point to that says your

wrong. Quite the contrary everything I read

....

 

1D6+1 HKA

+1/2 END =0

30 points

 

I can define this Special effect as my sword. I am done! I can never loose it, it cannot be taken away or be broken.

 

Now if I want a special effect that states I have to activate it and make a skill role to do so. It should be cheaper. Why would I

....

 

That's closely related to the point I was trying to make. If I were making this character and the GM insisted on all this hoop-jumping, I would just say "F*ck it. It's a plain 2d HKA and the special effect is a magic sword I can summon at will. Let's get on with the game". This is doubly true if the GM way actually wound up costing more points for a Power with more drawbacks.

 

Reminds me of a player who made up a version of Marvin the Martian (the alien foe of Duck Dodgers and Bugs Bunny). He had "Disintegrator/Re-integrator pistol" on the sheet. I asked him "why isn't this a Focus?"

 

"Because he always has another one"

 

I don’t think this was a personal attack. I think he was saying that The Hero System in general has a problem getting new players because it can be so over whelming. This is a commonly excepted fact.

 

Exactly. I was quite surprised to be accused of an ad hominem. This was more of an ad system.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Demonsong

In a way I am incline to agree with Arthur. KS I have no rule to point to that says your wrong. Quite the contrary everything I read points to your approach as being the correct one. However it just doesn’t feel right. It seems like we are trying to over complicate the issue. There should be an easier way to work this out. This is something (that from my point of view) looks like it should be relatively to do.

 

1D6+1 HKA

+1/2 END =0

30 points

 

I can define this Special effect as my sword. I am done! I can never loose it, it cannot be taken away or be broken.

Thats true, but its not what we are talking about here. What we are talking about is a Sword SPELL with activation requirements.

 

As a side note, the version I posted was a 2d6 that lasted all day and cost 33 points vice your 30 points....so which one is cheaper by DC?

 

 

 

Originally posted by Demonsong

Now if I want a special effect that states I have to activate it and make a skill role to do so. It should be cheaper. Why would I want to pile on unneeded advantages so I can put on other disadvantages (like charges)?

You arent putting on extra advantages so you can put on other disadvantages. The Charge on my build isnt necessary -- it just serves to make the power 0 END and is there mainly because the Default Magic System that I use in my games is Charge based, and I copied the base spell from the material I have created for that Magic System. If you dont want the Charge take it off, but you would be a fool to do so considering the fact that due to the synergy between Charges and Lingering its a +/-0 modifier at that point -- i.e. effectively 0 END for free.

 

If you put a RSR: Skill Roll on an Instant Power you have to roll EVERY TIME you use the power. If you only want to roll once then you need to change the Instant Power (HKA) to a Constant or Lingering Power so that it has a lifespan greater than 1 second.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Demonsong

I just want a magic sword spell I didn’t mean to start a fight

I didnt realize we were fighting.

 

Originally posted by Demonsong

I don’t think this was a personal attack. I think he was saying that The Hero System in general has a problem getting new players because it can be so over whelming. This is a commonly excepted fact.

Ah. Well, I disagree about the implication that playing fast and loose with the rules will help attract new players. New players IMO are going to value consistency much more than a game in which the GM's adjudications are based on whims.

 

Personally if I started getting involved w/ a new game and the GM just hand waved everything away and made seat of the pants decisions about how things are built and how basic rules of the gamer were applied I'd walk. Why? Because if he hand waves my character's effects away, he's doing the same or worse for NPCs and antagonists, and the entire game is just an elaborately disguised excercise in "Because I Said So".

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Arthur

 

That's closely related to the point I was trying to make. If I were making this character and the GM insisted on all this hoop-jumping, I would just say "F*ck it. It's a plain 2d HKA and the special effect is a magic sword I can summon at will. Let's get on with the game". This is doubly true if the GM way actually wound up costing more points for a Power with more drawbacks.

A) Applying the rules of the game is not hoop-jumping. If you choose to ignore the rules and just do what ever comes into your mind at the moment that's your business, but its not playing the game as it is written.

 

If he could summon the "sword" AT WILL we wouldnt be having this discussion. However, the situation in question is that the character cannot summon it AT WILL; it has ACTIVATION LIMITATIONS. If the character wants to be able to summon it at will, then they should not take ACTIVATION LIMITATION on the Power, but in that case its not really a "SPELL" anymore and is really just a "SUPERPOWER". This likely in not kosher in most Fantasy HERO games where characters are not allowed to just buy Powers as they wish.

 

C) The version I wrote up is effectively a 0 END 2d6 HKA that is available all day long, but must be activated w/ an RSR roll the first time it is used. A 2d6 0 END RKA is 45 Real Cost vice 33 RC for the version I wrote up. Even if you put your suggested (illegal) reduced value RSR: Roll only 1st time at a -1/4, the 2d6 0 END RKA is still 36 RC. Which costs more again? Also, one is legal, the other isnt. Hmm.....

 

Originally posted by Arthur

Reminds me of a player who made up a version of Marvin the Martian (the alien foe of Duck Dodgers and Bugs Bunny). He had "Disintegrator/Re-integrator pistol" on the sheet. I asked him "why isn't this a Focus?"

 

"Because he always has another one"

And what you still dont seem to get is that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. We arent talking about a Focus. What we are talking about is an INSTANT Power with ACTIVATION LIMITATIONS.

 

 

Originally posted by Arthur

Exactly. I was quite surprised to be accused of an ad hominem. This was more of an ad system.

There is nothing wrong with the system in that regards. Players that dont like complexity are not going to like the system, and players that like to have ways to define their imagination in game terms will like it.

[Demonsong]

Thats true, but its not what we are talking about here. What we are talking about is a Sword SPELL with activation requirements.

 

As a side note, the version I posted was a 2d6 that lasted all day and cost 33 points vice your 30 points....so which one is cheaper by DC?

 

Cost is not the point here KS. The point is over-complicating a power. This is the 1st time that I have come a crossed a power build (specifically the power advantage Lingering) that I just dislike. I completely agree with you that this is the correct method to do it by the rules. However the power advantage lingering is just too expensive for what it does. Further more I think it is clunky. Unlike many others, I freely admit that I am not an expert on the hero system. And I do not have a better solution. But that does not change the fact that I think it is just an ugly power construct that I am not going to use in my game. I would hope that you can respect that.

 

 

Disclaimer:

Over all I think that the Hero System is by far the best gaming system on the market. And that I mean no disrespect to Steve or any one else at Hero. I just think Lingering need to be re-thought out.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

So its not legal by the rules. If you bend the rules then why have the rules?

 

Limited Power.

 

Limited Power can limit the Power in any way you want, if you can describe it well enough.

 

I don't see anything at all wrong with saying "Limited Power: Requires A Roll To Activate (-1/4)" or something similar.

 

A) Applying the rules of the game is not hoop-jumping. If you choose to ignore the rules and just do what ever comes into your mind at the moment that's your business, but its not playing the game as it is written.

 

So? Are you harmed by it? Is the world going to crack in two? Does someone else's wrong fun hurt you?

 

Seriously. So what? I used to get my panties in a wad over someone else's wrong fun (anyone remember the Normal Characteristics Maxima "debates"?) but I came to a realization: it's just not worth it to get that worked up over it.

 

Man, let it go.

 

Personally, if I were Arthur's GM, I'd say write it up as a Power, then build it with UBO Differing Modifiers to create it. Technically, according to the rules, it has to be usable by someone else, but it's so useful I'd be willing to handwave it. Or use Create from first edition Fantasy Hero, which is basically the same thing as UBO Differing Modifiers.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by archer

Limited Power.

 

Limited Power can limit the Power in any way you want, if you can describe it well enough.

 

I don't see anything at all wrong with saying "Limited Power: Requires A Roll To Activate (-1/4)" or something similar.

Again, you too seem to not realize that you Activate INSTANT Powers EVERY TIME YOU USE THEM. So, your Limited Power option does not work either.

 

Originally posted by archer

So? Are you harmed by it? Is the world going to crack in two? Does someone else's wrong fun hurt you?

Look, Im not trying to tell Arthur or anyone else how to do it, Im just pointing out that they way they suggest to do it is specifically illegal and indicates a general lack of understanding about the difference between Instant and Constant Powers and the Activation of Powers.

 

Ive pointed this out and the points have not been refuted.

 

If Arthur or Demonsong or others want to continue to do it their house-ruled way, then its their business and youd be hard pressed to find anyone else on the planet less concerned about it than I am.

 

 

 

Originally posted by archer

Man, let it go.

 

Let what go? I dont care what Arthur or anyone else does in their game. However, when a newbie asks "HOW DO I DO X" and people instruct that person how to do it via means that are not legal or correct via the rules, I think it behooves us all to at least be clear about what is book-legal and what is effectively "house-ruled". Otherwise said newbie and perhaps other lurkers are incorrectly educated on how the system works, which can lead to other problems as well.

 

For example, in this particular case, several of the suggested methods of handling this were made by people seemingly oblivious to how INSTANT powers function. Newbie takes the suggested solution and applies it. Then, when later encountering other similar situations with Instant Powers, applies the same "fix". Suddenly, Instant Powers are a lot more effective in his setting than they are intended to be since they are effectively being made CONSTANT or semi-Constant for free. It may take this newbie many months or years (or perhaps forever) to figure out that he has a flawed understanding of a very basic rule of the game, and by that time might have quite a body of work built up based upon this false assumption (such as hundreds of custom Spells used by dozens of characters)

 

Similarly, a recommendation was made to do the sword portion of the Spell via a Focus, which is created by the casting of the Spell. This suggestion completely ignores the fact that a Focus is required to ACTIVATE the Spell in the first place and that Focuses are not CREATED by ACTIVATION of Powers. If a newbie were to take this suggestion they are being led astray as to the purpose of the Focus rules.

 

In both cases, there are rules published in supplements, Lingering in FH and Physical Manifestation in USPD which cover either situation.

 

So, I'm not holding on to anything here. Im just pointing out that promulgating illegal or house-ruled mechanics is one thing, but refusing to recognize that there is a correct way to do it via the rules, which is no more complicated than any other Power Construct build, is doing a disservice to the person who does not know any better.

 

Originally posted by archer

Personally, if I were Arthur's GM, I'd say write it up as a Power, then build it with UBO Differing Modifiers to create it. Technically, according to the rules, it has to be usable by someone else, but it's so useful I'd be willing to handwave it. Or use Create from first edition Fantasy Hero, which is basically the same thing as UBO Differing Modifiers.

 

I'd have to check FRED (at work now), but IIRC an INSTANT Power bought UBO would allow someone else to use that Power exactly once.

 

Also, Arthur isnt looking to build this power, he was merely replying to the original poster.

 

 

As a side note, I find it rather baffling that so many people think its easier to bake up a hand-wave solution rather than just apply "LINGERING, X TIME FRAME" for the sticks-around effect and "PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION: Sword" for the makes-a-sword effect.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

In both cases, there are rules published in supplements, Lingering in FH and Physical Manifestation in USPD which cover either situation.

 

I have FH, but don't have USPD; it's entirely possible the original poster doesn't have either one. In any case I don't know the FH book well enough to have suggested Lingering off the top of my head. Note also that it's an optional rule; the first four words of the description of Lingering are "At the GM's option..." In other words, it's by no means official and Holy Writ.

 

So if the original poster (Demonsong) is the GM, it's up to him whether to use it. (If not, then he should be asking his GM anyway.)

 

I also don't agree with the way it's written up; I'd do it differently.

 

I'd have to check FRED (at work now), but IIRC an INSTANT Power bought UBO would allow someone else to use that Power exactly once.

 

There's nothing in the writeup of UBO to indicate that that's the case.

 

 

As a side note, I find it rather baffling that so many people think its easier to bake up a hand-wave solution rather than just apply "LINGERING, X TIME FRAME" for the sticks-around effect and "PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION: Sword" for the makes-a-sword effect.

 

Not everyone has access to those.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Demonsong

In a way I am incline to agree with Arthur. KS I have no rule to point to that says your wrong. Quite the contrary everything I read points to your approach as being the correct one. However it just doesn’t feel right. It seems like we are trying to over complicate the issue. There should be an easier way to work this out. This is something (that from my point of view) looks like it should be relatively to do.

 

1D6+1 HKA

+1/2 END =0

30 points

 

I can define this Special effect as my sword. I am done! I can never loose it, it cannot be taken away or be broken.

 

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Thats true, but its not what we are talking about here. What we are talking about is a Sword SPELL with activation requirements.

 

Which is what Demonsong was asking about. How does he limit his basic HKA, which works every Phase, so that it requires a skill roll to activate and can be deactivated by someone else easily? You're talking about Advantages when he's looking for Limitations. In fact you've gotten quite adamant, several times using the phrase "ACTIVATION LIMITATIONS" in all capital letters. That's what he's asking about. So what's his Limitation value?

 

And who says the construct Demonsong posted above isn't a spell? KS, it seems like you're taking "what I'd do in my game" and calling it "what you should do in your game".

[Chris Goodwin]

In fact, why not make it something like OIHID and Restrainable? Restrainable means it can be taken away or otherwise deactivated, and OIHID means that you then have to "reactivate" it once it's taken away. If you don't like calling it OIHID, call it "Activation Limitations" at -1/4.