The Case for Doctor Destroyer

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure Dr D only "punished" Mentalla after her brother left. In the canon version, Mentalla is one of the few ( maybe the only ) human beings Menton actually cares about genuinely.

[Southern Cross]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Sounds like a certain poster is confusing the 4th Edition versions with the 5th Edition versions of Menton,Mentalla & Doctor Destroyer.Not that I blame him -after getting Conquerors,Killers & Crooks,I found the 4th Edition versions of menton,Mentalla & Firewing far superior (or more interesting) to the ones presented therein.

[steriaca]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Let me think...Destroyer in power...

 

...Man kind will be sperated into two groups. Group one are thoes who he views are 'helpful' to him. This group is fed just enougth to be keped alive, and worked alot for what Destroyer wants. Then, if your considered realy useful, he will chose you for an experment. You then experence agonising pain as he works his science upon you. You hope for the 60% failer risk, for that means death. If your one of the 'lucky' 40% sucess, your alive, but proably not anything which culd be considered human anymore.

 

The second group are imedetly exacuted.

 

His ideal about economics is this...he has enougth Nazi gold stached away for himself, AND ONLY HIMSELF, to live like a king for as long as he is alive. Which may be long if he figures out the secrets of celular regeneration and rejuvination. This welth will NOT trickle down, nor will he pretend that it does.

 

As for resourses...well, eveything he conquers, he owns. Eveything he ownes, he has a right to do whatever he wants with it. And what he wants to do with it is experment with it, strip it of it's resourses, and find a place to dump the bodys and other waist. Basicly, the Earth will be better off without Destroyer's rule.

[starblaze]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

> Nooooooo......no, no, a thousand times no. No Elminsters in the CU!

 

Fug Elminster, man, I'd just be happy if this planet had a viable equivalent to the Avengers.

Check out some issues of Digital Heroes. They have write-ups of the Sentinals who are very similiar to the Avengers in flavor. At least I think so.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Flavor, yes.

 

Power level, no.

 

I want to know where the heroes are who kicked the Warlord's butt when he tried to invade Indonesia last year. I want to know how come Gravitar hasn't thrown Gamma Base into the moon yet, just to prove the impotence of the US military against her. I want to know how Takofanes' last rampage was stopped without requiring either tactical nuclear weapons or two dozen superhero funerals.

 

In short, I want to know who, in a world where me and the PCs are supposed to be 350-pointers who consider GRAB a challenging encounter, does the heavy lifting around here.

 

 

There's a /reason/ the campaign I'm currently in has 750-800 point characters, who formed up our world's equivalent of the Justice League. But I would like to play normal low-end supers one day as well, just for the fun of it. And when I do that, when it's my character's turn to go "Look! Up in the sky!"... I want to know who my character will see.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

A great thread, and one which interests me for obvious reasons.

 

My take on Destroyer (which is different than George MacDonald's, who pretty much saw him as Doom and made no apologies for it and probably different than Steve's approach in 5e) is that Destroyer was Doom with a lot of the pretensions stripped away. Doom had the veneer of a nobleman, and could certainly play the part to perfection. He had a sense of noblesse oblige toward Latveria (even though that's an extension of his ego; he really didn't care about them as people and doesn't give their interests a passing thought), and in his calmer moments, he can conduct himself with a sense of nobility which allows him to play the part of the noble leader. But if he's seriously threatened, nine times out of ten, he'll cast off the veneer of nobility and return to being an angry gypsy kid with the instincts and manners of a street fighter.

 

Destroyer, on the other hand, is always the street fighter, the ugly boy from Munich who played with dolls because no one wanted to be around him; the young scientist who received sneers behind his back from his colleagues, who stayed in the lab while others took credit for his work and was lauded at lavish parties; the lab worker for the Reich who watched Nazi party favorites get the limelight and who wasn't allowed to conduct research in the areas that most interested him for absurd, racist reasons. He has no Latveria to serve as his sandbox to cultivate the pretense of higher emotions, nor does he have a royal pedigree. Doom's origin is laced with tragedy and a just (if misplaced) anger that's reminiscent of a Romantic anti-hero. Destroyer doesn't even have that - his hurts aren't focused on any particular incident (except perhaps his burning); he's someone who's died a death of a thousand cuts that's crafted a particularly mean-spirited view of humanity.

 

Doom would take humanity and "elevate" it, solely to boost his ego and prove his superiority. As far as Destroyer's concerned, humanity doesn't even have that use - to him, mankind is a toy. "Day of the Destroyer" wasn't a serious plot on Destroyer's behalf - he'd have tried to implement the 90% solution years earlier if he seriously believed in it. "Day" isn't really about a world-threatening plan; it 's about Zerstoiten toying with someone who annoyed him and ridiculed him, transforming him into the object of his ridicule. Conquering the world may be amusing, but emotionally breaking an obnoxious twit who reminded him of his old tormentors (in the most humiliating manner possible) is far more fun and satisfying. And if Destroyer is willing to threaten the destruction of the world just to humiliate one loudmouth who should be beneath his notice; well, hopefully it'll give the PCs a few shudders and makes their next encounter with Destroyer something to be anticipated.

 

Scott Bennie

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

"Actually, I'm pretty sure Dr D only "punished" Mentalla after her brother left. In the canon version, Mentalla is one of the few ( maybe the only ) human beings Menton actually cares about genuinely."

 

As noted by another poster, I was referring to 4th edition. Given that the big D has appeared in both "universes" I felt that both were balid for pointing out what a freaking sick SOB he is.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

On the Sentinels, I would have prefered the 4th edition Champions boosted to 750-800 points and made the predominant team of the 5th edition Champions Universe, and a fresh group of newbies pushed in as the sample starting characters, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

 

Getting back to the original point of the thread, I was about to give a long posting when Scott Bennie here, the bastard, posted a much longer and far more eloquently explanation of his contrast between Doctor Doom and Doctor Destroyer. In fact he even made me see things I had missed. And Doom is redeemed because it feeds his ego to be a good ruler more than a bad one.

 

That said, I think there is a void in the CU for someone who is like Doctor Doom. Someone interested in benevolent dictatorship and believes in bringing order out of chaos and peace and prosperity to all, even if he has to grind everyone under his collective heel in order to do it. And someone who has brought order and prosperity to some hellhole of our world.

[Agent X]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

A great thread, and one which interests me for obvious reasons.

 

My take on Destroyer (which is different than George MacDonald's, who pretty much saw him as Doom and made no apologies for it and probably different than Steve's approach in 5e) is that Destroyer was Doom with a lot of the pretensions stripped away. Doom had the veneer of a nobleman, and could certainly play the part to perfection. He had a sense of noblesse oblige toward Latveria (even though that's an extension of his ego; he really didn't care about them as people and doesn't give their interests a passing thought), and in his calmer moments, he can conduct himself with a sense of nobility which allows him to play the part of the noble leader. But if he's seriously threatened, nine times out of ten, he'll cast off the veneer of nobility and return to being an angry gypsy kid with the instincts and manners of a street fighter.

 

Destroyer, on the other hand, is always the street fighter, the ugly boy from Munich who played with dolls because no one wanted to be around him; the young scientist who received sneers behind his back from his colleagues, who stayed in the lab while others took credit for his work and was lauded at lavish parties; the lab worker for the Reich who watched Nazi party favorites get the limelight and who wasn't allowed to conduct research in the areas that most interested him for absurd, racist reasons. He has no Latveria to serve as his sandbox to cultivate the pretense of higher emotions, nor does he have a royal pedigree. Doom's origin is laced with tragedy and a just (if misplaced) anger that's reminiscent of a Romantic anti-hero. Destroyer doesn't even have that - his hurts aren't focused on any particular incident (except perhaps his burning); he's someone who's died a death of a thousand cuts that's crafted a particularly mean-spirited view of humanity.

 

Doom would take humanity and "elevate" it, solely to boost his ego and prove his superiority. As far as Destroyer's concerned, humanity doesn't even have that use - to him, mankind is a toy. "Day of the Destroyer" wasn't a serious plot on Destroyer's behalf - he'd have tried to implement the 90% solution years earlier if he seriously believed in it. "Day" isn't really about a world-threatening plan; it 's about Zerstoiten toying with someone who annoyed him and ridiculed him, transforming him into the object of his ridicule. Conquering the world may be amusing, but emotionally breaking an obnoxious twit who reminded him of his old tormentors (in the most humiliating manner possible) is far more fun and satisfying. And if Destroyer is willing to threaten the destruction of the world just to humiliate one loudmouth who should be beneath his notice; well, hopefully it'll give the PCs a few shudders and makes their next encounter with Destroyer something to be anticipated.

 

Scott Bennie

This discussion reminds me of Byrne and Claremont's debate over who was a more "noble" villain, Doom or Magneto.

 

I just have to say. I like 5th edition and I'm enjoying the new CU but I wish you had a stronger hand in it.

[Agent X]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Flavor, yes.

 

Power level, no.

 

I want to know where the heroes are who kicked the Warlord's butt when he tried to invade Indonesia last year. I want to know how come Gravitar hasn't thrown Gamma Base into the moon yet, just to prove the impotence of the US military against her. I want to know how Takofanes' last rampage was stopped without requiring either tactical nuclear weapons or two dozen superhero funerals.

 

In short, I want to know who, in a world where me and the PCs are supposed to be 350-pointers who consider GRAB a challenging encounter, does the heavy lifting around here.

 

 

There's a /reason/ the campaign I'm currently in has 750-800 point characters, who formed up our world's equivalent of the Justice League. But I would like to play normal low-end supers one day as well, just for the fun of it. And when I do that, when it's my character's turn to go "Look! Up in the sky!"... I want to know who my character will see.

I have to agree. There is something crippling about a universe that is as broad as the one that is written and provides so many powerful threats but refuses to provide any powerful heroes.

 

I understand their fear of overshadowing players but, as big as their milieu has become, a few powerful heroes in the present-day CU are not going to crowd out the players.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

That said' date=' I think there is a void in the CU for someone who is like Doctor Doom. Someone interested in benevolent dictatorship and believes in bringing order out of chaos and peace and prosperity to all, even if he has to grind everyone under his collective heel in order to do it. And someone who has brought order and prosperity to some hellhole of our world.[/quote']

 

Lord Dire, from 4e Champions _Sentinels of the North_, is just begging for a revamp...

[Agent X]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

On the Sentinels' date=' I would have prefered the 4th edition Champions boosted to 750-800 points and made the predominant team of the 5th edition Champions Universe, and a fresh group of newbies pushed in as the sample starting characters, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.[/quote'] I would love to see a 750-800 point group of heroes that could actually stand a chance against the heavy-hitters in the Champions Universe!

 

Getting back to the original point of the thread, I was about to give a long posting when Scott Bennie here, the bastard, posted a much longer and far more eloquently explanation of his contrast between Doctor Doom and Doctor Destroyer. In fact he even made me see things I had missed. And Doom is redeemed because it feeds his ego to be a good ruler more than a bad one.

 

That said, I think there is a void in the CU for someone who is like Doctor Doom. Someone interested in benevolent dictatorship and believes in bringing order out of chaos and peace and prosperity to all, even if he has to grind everyone under his collective heel in order to do it. And someone who has brought order and prosperity to some hellhole of our world.

That would be cool.

[Agent X]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Lord Dire' date=' from 4e Champions _Sentinels of the North_, is just begging for a revamp...[/quote'] I'd like a revamped look for him too. The Roman Mohawk thing didn't work for me.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Lord Dire' date=' from 4e Champions _Sentinels of the North_, is just begging for a revamp...[/quote']

 

I'm more inclined to someone in Africa, a place that would really be more likely to produce someone with a burning drive to create order and prosperity by any means necessary.

[Agent X]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

I'm more inclined to someone in Africa' date=' a place that would really be more likely to produce someone with a burning drive to create order and prosperity by any means necessary.[/quote'] Tell us more. You must have something on your mind.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

This discussion reminds me of Byrne and Claremont's debate over who was a more "noble" villain, Doom or Magneto.

 

I just have to say. I like 5th edition and I'm enjoying the new CU but I wish you had a stronger hand in it.

 

Well, I'd never refuse a chance to mess around in a fun campaign setting, but I'm glad at the opportunities I've had (I'm quite happy with the brackground of VIPER 5e, particularly the revamp of Viperia). And I think Steve and company have done a great job with the world in general.

 

As for high powered iconics, when Gestalt eventually sees print most of Columbia runs at the 650-750 point level (though they're not the most likable bunch). But high end iconics tend to be despised by gamers who've had their PCs overshadowed by high powered NPCs ("when did Elminster get a cape and tights) so I can well understand Hero's reluctance to go that route.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Tell us more. You must have something on your mind.

My concept would essentially be a cross between Black Panther and Doctor Doom. Essentially the Black Panther with elements of Doctor Doom's personality grafted onto them. Someone who grew up in one of the bloodier warzones. Lost some of his village to famine, lost some of them to war, and more recently there's AIDS on top of that. And of course the first world countries are making the AIDS treatments expensive to recoup their costs when there are people dying in Africa.

 

Essentially, instead of Black Panther inheriting something, he more or less has to start from the bottom conquering his way to the top. He's not thrilled with the first world either given its history of exploitation in Africa. Power-wise, he's a highly trained normal, possibly Black Panther level in perfection, but he also has a suit of powered armor built for him by his chief engineer and reinforced by enchantments from his chief magician.

 

His goals keep expanding as his horizons do. At first he wanted to bring peace and prosperity to his village, then the region around it, then to his country. He's now looking at the whole African continent and wanting to become Emperor of a unified Africa. He will bring it peace and prosperity. He wants to take the great deserts of the north and make them bloom as they once did thousands of years ago, among other things.

 

Of course he's also looking at the problems of overpopulation and environmental damage happening on a global scale and realizing that he cannot just focus on Africa. He's going to have to bring the world under his dominion as well to create peace and prosperity for all of the world and to keep the human race from fouling its nest.

 

He rules with an iron hand in part because there are so many factions that would want to tear his country apart with ancient tribal feuds, with agents from corporations and governemnts in the first world wanting to exploit his country's people for cheap labor and export their natural resources for a fraction of what they would be worth. He isn't paranoid, he's got a long list of enemies who have profited from Africa's prior chaos or wish to wrest his creation from him.

 

He's not a great an admirer of democracy and free enterprise capitalism, the way he watches the Americans hog the world's resources, exploit cheap labor in third world nations and dump their poisons all over the place. His childhood was in a place of freedom (read: anarchy) and he has a dim view of that and a very strong view of law and order and keeping people from doing evil things. He stepped on first world interests when he nationalized some foreign corporate holdings in his country.

 

He's already established a kingdom where there is peace and prosperity and justice for the people. There is no poverty, there is no war, and he's done an amazing job in dealing with the various diseases. Or rather he's got a good number of paranormals and magical and scientific geniuses who share his vision of a prosperous Africa, and a few who don't but are more or less forced to help create it (he figures that supervillains might as well do something useful with their gifts, whether they like it or not).

 

He keeps an eye on the rest of the world and if there is technology that could benefit his nation or a powerful relic that could benefit his country (or endanger it), he is likely to send his forces to aquire it. He sees no reason to deal fairly with nations that have never dealt with his lands fairly. Because of the way he kicked out American corporations and his subsequent record of looting valuable technology and magic, he's aquired a reputation as a villain. To his own people, he's a hero, leading them to greatness and glory.

 

Comments?

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

"Actually, I'm pretty sure Dr D only "punished" Mentalla after her brother left. In the canon version, Mentalla is one of the few ( maybe the only ) human beings Menton actually cares about genuinely."

 

As noted by another poster, I was referring to 4th edition. Given that the big D has appeared in both "universes" I felt that both were balid for pointing out what a freaking sick SOB he is.

 

True, perhaps, but one of them portrays Menton in a poorer light than he deserves (!!).

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

I would love to see a 750-800 point group of heroes that could actually stand a chance against the heavy-hitters in the Champions Universe!

 

How do you do it on that point budget??

 

Easy. You have ChuckG help point optimize your characters, and you have JeffreyWKramer as your GM to approve them.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Or, to slightly rephrase Meta's answer...

 

"You want to see that team of 750-800 pointers? We're running 'em as our PCs."

 

(of course, we *did* have to severely mangle certain concepts of play balance, as well as take a *very* liberal approach to VPPs...)

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

To Mutant for Hire:

 

does your Black Panther/Dr. Doom cross also walk on water and feed 5000 with five loaves and two fish?

 

Sorry... you just got a little ranty. I understand wanting to know what's going on in this person's head but it seems kinda one sided. A lot of Africa's problems are its own doing and most supergroups I have been part of I think would love pounding this guy into the ground if only because he sounds so unbelievable and obnoxious. Tone him down a bit, make his country a little less perfect, and you could have a great character who the PC's might have problems deciding if he's the bad guy or not.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

To Mutant for Hire:

does your Black Panther/Dr. Doom cross also walk on water and feed 5000 with five loaves and two fish?

No. He nationalizes industries, enslaves paranormals who oppose him and puts them to work for what he thinks is the public good, doesn't allow anything remotely close to free speech or representation, and he routinely sends forces out to steal technology and artifacts that he could possibly aquire by legal means. And half his enemies are ones he made himself by being so arrogant and/or ruthless.

Sorry... you just got a little ranty. I understand wanting to know what's going on in this person's head but it seems kinda one sided. A lot of Africa's problems are its own doing and most supergroups I have been part of I think would love pounding this guy into the ground if only because he sounds so unbelievable and obnoxious. Tone him down a bit, make his country a little less perfect, and you could have a great character who the PC's might have problems deciding if he's the bad guy or not.

I didn't give a fair and balanced viewpoint. This guy doesn't like what the rest of the world has done to Africa and has very strong prejudices as a result. He's the one who is ranty. He does understand that a lot of Africa's problems are self-inflicted. His problem is that he basically sees the problem being that none of the other people in Africa are strong enough to stop the conflicts and wise enough to heal Africa's problems. He is, so he should take over and rule.

 

And there are issues that he hasn't looked into, like how to ensure that there will be successors as devoted to the public welfare as he is and whether or not an underling might actually manage to overthrow him. He's longsighted in some ways but he's very shortsighted in others. And yes, he's insanely arrogant and a lot of people would like to smack him down. I used Doctor Doom for a lot of his personality.

 

What separates him from the run of the mill thug is that he does want to bring peace and prosperity to his people, instead of indulging himself. He is a very selfless individual. But a lot of his methods are just as bloody and ruthless as regular dictators.

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

I'll try to stay on topic... really!

 

"My concept would essentially be a cross between Black Panther and Doctor Doom. Essentially the Black Panther with elements of Doctor Doom's personality grafted onto them. Someone who grew up in one of the bloodier warzones. Lost some of his village to famine, lost some of them to war, and more recently there's AIDS on top of that. "

 

I like this. Sounds similar to Magneto who went through the holocaust and saw the worst in humanity. Little wonder that this person would be militant himself.

 

"And of course the first world countries are making the AIDS treatments expensive to recoup their costs when there are people dying in Africa."

 

As noted, it is expensive to produce these medicines. Also the expense varies greatly depending upon which country it's purchased in since many nations have control over medical care and can unfairly dictate a price. I would hopes that the character would know this since he sounds to be so incredibly intelligent and I'd love to know his response to the problem such as perhaps stealing the patented formulas or kidnapping those who create the drug and so he can manufacture the drug.

 

Then he turns around and gives it away. What a dilemna for the heroes! He's breaking the law and endangering future researcg but he's also helping millions who might have have recieved it. Nice, sticky situation. Of course it also posistions him as a power-broker or sorts so there may be some ulterior motives.

 

"Essentially, instead of Black Panther inheriting something, he more or less has to start from the bottom conquering his way to the top. "

 

Very Dr Doom-eqse (since he started from nothing as well).

 

"Power-wise, he's a highly trained normal, possibly Black Panther level in perfection, but he also has a suit of powered armor built for him by his chief engineer and reinforced by enchantments from his chief magician."

 

A bit over the place but workable.

 

"His goals keep expanding as his horizons do. At first he wanted to bring peace and prosperity to his village, then the region around it, then to his country. He's now looking at the whole African continent and wanting to become Emperor of a unified Africa."

 

I like this as well but in a different way. It shows his growing ambition. Perhaps he can struggle with it. He is smart enough to realize that he's not satisfied and wonders if he's growing greedy and following the path of other conquerors who have often left chaos and disarray in the longrun. What of his legacy? He can't live forever and who will be able to hold his empire together? Another plot seed?

 

"He will bring it peace and prosperity. He wants to take the great deserts of the north and make them bloom as they once did thousands of years ago, among other things."

 

*gag* Sorry... just not fond of the whole making the world better through dictatorship. More on that later. I'd read the above as saying that he wants to bring peace and prosperity rather than it's a forgone conclusion that it will happen.

 

"Of course he's also looking at the problems of overpopulation and environmental damage happening on a global scale and realizing that he cannot just focus on Africa. He's going to have to bring the world under his dominion as well to create peace and prosperity for all of the world and to keep the human race from fouling its nest."

 

See above about better living through dictatorship... also why not seek to create technologies that people will embrace that are non-polluting unless I suppose, and indeed it's likely, that he thinks no one will adopt them since it could disrupt the control of corporations.

 

"He rules with an iron hand in part because there are so many factions that would want to tear his country apart with ancient tribal feuds, with agents from corporations and governemnts in the first world wanting to exploit his country's people for cheap labor and export their natural resources for a fraction of what they would be worth. He isn't paranoid, he's got a long list of enemies who have profited from Africa's prior chaos or wish to wrest his creation from him."

 

Actually he is paranoid. Africa has suffered at the hands of the west but it's also created many of its own problems and invited the first world into its land. Slaves most often came from warring tribes, not Europeans going on hunts. If he doesn't acknowledge this in some way, or at least avoids going on rants, he's going to come off as a zealot rather than an eloquent and highly intelligent, if ruthless, man who wants to make life better for people rather than just serve his zealotry.

 

Also, tribal hatreds run DEEP and he had better have a very heavy iron hand to keep it in rein.

 

"He's not a great an admirer of democracy and free enterprise capitalism, the way he watches the Americans hog the world's resources, exploit cheap labor in third world nations and dump their poisons all over the place. His childhood was in a place of freedom (read: anarchy) and he has a dim view of that and a very strong view of law and order and keeping people from doing evil things. He stepped on first world interests when he nationalized some foreign corporate holdings in his country."

 

So he upholds law and order by stealing from others? Something to point out though I suppose he sees it as restoring what is rightly that of the people's. Of course they are relying on foreign creations to get at those resources. What is very interesting is how he can survive given how many toes he is stepping on. You would think, especialy if he takes over another country, that international sanctions could be created. Indeed other African nations would lead the charge in this since they could be his next target.

 

"He's already established a kingdom where there is peace and prosperity and justice for the people. There is no poverty, there is no war, and he's done an amazing job in dealing with the various diseases. Or rather he's got a good number of paranormals and magical and scientific geniuses who share his vision of a prosperous Africa, and a few who don't but are more or less forced to help create it (he figures that supervillains might as well do something useful with their gifts, whether they like it or not)."

 

BIG problem. It's all too perfect. Unless you want to hit your players on the head that tyranny is a good thing which is a terrible thing to preach. Indeed, the nature of superheroes is to defend freedom while ironically being the ultimate agents of chaos by standing outside society and its laws to enforce them! Kinda like what your example is doing... through a mirror most darkly.

 

"He keeps an eye on the rest of the world and if there is technology that could benefit his nation or a powerful relic that could benefit his country (or endanger it), he is likely to send his forces to aquire it. He sees no reason to deal fairly with nations that have never dealt with his lands fairly."

 

Yeah, yeah... to him I say cry me a river. So basically he chooses to repeat the sins of the past and perpatuate them. Ironically, he's falling into the same thought process as that which keeps tribal factions and violence alive... another irony perhaps?

 

"Because of the way he kicked out American corporations and his subsequent record of looting valuable technology and magic, he's aquired a reputation as a villain. To his own people, he's a hero, leading them to greatness and glory."

 

He is a villain which much of what he's going.. including stealing billions of dollars from those he thinks have done his people wrong in the past and also adding to the cycle of revenge rather than seeking a new path. I'm sorry to be raining on your parade a little since I think this is a great concepty but it needs serious refinement to make him this noble villain who could even be a hero and someone that the other supers might side with or at least consider in the right.

 

Good luck!

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

You misread my intention. I was trying to create someone closer to Doctor Doom, with a code of honor and a noble bearing. However he is a true aristocrat in that he thinks that laws are something that happens to other people, and his sense of honor will lead him to commit certain deeds in order to settle the scales of justice. I never created him to be admired by the superhero community. Doctor Doom certainly isn't. On the other hand, any superhero team that looks to his enemies on average is going to find them even worse than him, on average. I didn't create him to be good so much as the lesser of two evils.

 

Teamups, on the other hand, are not out of the question. If Doctor Destroyer did threaten to blow away 90% of the world's population or Takofanes threatened to kill all of it, he'd certainly be on the side of right. If an alien space fleet showed up to conquer the planet, he'd do his share to make sure the threat was repelled. He acts in what he perceives to be the interest of the planet, which means that if an ecoterrorist tries to drive everyone out of the rainforests or shuts down a major polluter, he might end up on the side of the eco-terrorists, if he perceived their actions would actually go good for the global ecosystem.

[Agent X]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Well, I'd never refuse a chance to mess around in a fun campaign setting, but I'm glad at the opportunities I've had (I'm quite happy with the brackground of VIPER 5e, particularly the revamp of Viperia). And I think Steve and company have done a great job with the world in general.

 

As for high powered iconics, when Gestalt eventually sees print most of Columbia runs at the 650-750 point level (though they're not the most likable bunch). But high end iconics tend to be despised by gamers who've had their PCs overshadowed by high powered NPCs ("when did Elminster get a cape and tights) so I can well understand Hero's reluctance to go that route.

I think that's part of the problem. I really do believe DOJ associates a super team averaging 750 points with an "Elminster effect" and I think that's wrong-headed, at least the way they build characters. Sure, you could build characters on that points that were tricked up to take on Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes, but you certainly don't have to and nor would DOJ be likely to do so. I don't think the fears are merited. To use the Elminster analogy, they would have to build a superhero on 2,000+ efficient points to equal the Elminster effect in Forgotten Realms.

 

A group of 750 point characters with a smattering of skill levels and combat skill levels, rounded out superpowers, and a host of perks would be quite powerful but certainly not deus ex machina good guys. As it is they have a Champions team whose members are variously hunted by Mechanon, the Crowns of Krim, Viper, Mechassassin, etc. who frankly shouldn't survive their hunteds for very long if the rolls for the hunteds aren't very artfully manipulated by the GM.

 

There's nothing wrong with providing an example of a team of supers that can conceivably counter a Takofanes or Dr. Destroyer without 3-30 dead superheroes. I'm running a CU campaign and I'm a little alarmed by the world view that requires so many fatalities if there is a direct confrontation with either of these figures. That's just not inspired by the comic book genre. Once in a while, the big gun villains can create a scenario with those kinds of consequences but the way it's written in the CU is a bit overblown. Generally, Dr. Doom, Darkseid, and Thanos don't succeed in killing any superheroes in their big schemes and I think that kind of balance is certainly achievable in Champions.