World Creation Issues - Opinions Wanted

[Nightshade]

I am working on my fantasy world and have run into a few quandries. First some background:

 

I have a huge world. I will have somewhere in the neighborhood of 90 different countries when I am finished.

 

I am writing up everything in a format similar to what most gaming companies do: Main world book, supplements for specifics (such as Vampires, Lycanthropes, Fae, etc.).

 

I would like other's opinions on these:

 

1) I have a race of Dark Elves on my world (who doesn't?) called the Morla. Now, I want them to be evil, nasty, and altogether known as the "bad guys." I really didn't want them to be a culture that players chose their characters from. Would you put a write up of this race (culture, aspects, leadership, etc.) in your main world description, or would you leave it out to foster the mysterious side of them?

 

2) In writing up my magic, I have Infernalism (devil magic) and Diablism (demon magic). Again, these are for the bad guys to use. Should I even put them in my magic section, or should I just state that there are these two forms of magic and give an overview what other wizards might know about them, or something else?

 

3) Has anyone ever done a language similarity chart? I was thinking that it would be nice to have (since I have so many languages), but it seems a pretty daunting task. Is it worth doing?

 

Thanks for your advice!

 

Nightshade

[BlackSword]

Quite a task before you. For questions (1) and (2) I would use what you described in two. Give descriptions based on stories and general knowledge, but not the specifics. That way when a band of Morlas ambush the players, they're not going, +2 to dex, can see in the dark, vulnerability to light based attacks. Ditto with the necromancy (okay, that spell had 30 AP, so that lets us know something about the nercomancer). Since its an unpublished world it will lead (IMO) to an air of mystery about the darker arts. You'll also avoid having to beat a player to death with FREd beacuse he wants to be a dark elf ninja with two swords and a pet cat.

 

I know that players that do good RPing can get over knowing what type of attacks people are doing, but everyone who has played D&D a lot has a basic grasp of spell levels and will start pigeon-holing a wizard into several levels, okay he has at most one more fireball spell, then "I will ownz3d hmi."

 

Never done a language familiarity chart, but it could be interesting. Especially if certain human regions were taught language by other races, such as elves or dwarves. Their language might be more similar to those languages then other languages of man. You might be able to just steal the one out of FREd and change several language familes to human, elf and dwarf, place those on the map and then make different dialects for the countries near by.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: World Creation Issues - Opinions Wanted

 

Originally posted by Nightshade

I have a huge world. I will have somewhere in the neighborhood of 90 different countries when I am finished.

 

Let me stop you right there. A gentleman named Ray Winnenger (sp?) said it best, "Never create more than you have to." Not everybody agrees with all of Ray's worldbuilding rules, but this one is vital.

 

If you NEED 90 countries and expect your players to visit most of them, that's fine. Otherwise, most of them would probably be just as well done as an outline on the map with a few historical and economic notes. Don't go overboard here.

 

Another of Ray's rules is for every important thing you create, make at least one secret about it. There are a number of good reasons for this that apply to your dark elves. First, if they don't know much about them, they can't really play one. Second, if you want to spring a new spell or ability on them, no one will say "hey, they can't do that." Third, learning about the bad guys is important to defeating them. Knowing is half the battle.

 

I'd take the same approach with the dark magics. People should know they exist and maybe have some basic defenses against them. Otherwise, they should be the stuff of mystery and madmen.

 

A language familiarity chart will go a long way to making it feel like a real world. Again, don't go too far overboard. I'd suggest working out some basic regional languages and then more specific dialects from there. Out of those 90 countries, you might want to look at 3 to 6 sharing each of the basic languages. Within those basic blocks, each one has it's own specific language.

 

For example, plenty of countries have Spanish as an official language, but there are at least two major forms spoken in Spain, the Mexican version, and several regional forms in South America. It's all Spanish, but not everything is the same from place to place. I guess what I'm saying the long way is that not every country needs it's own completely unique language.

[Galadorn]

Re: Re: World Creation Issues - Opinions Wanted

 

Originally posted by Greatwyrm

Let me stop you right there. A gentleman named Ray Winnenger (sp?) said it best, "Never create more than you have to." Not everybody agrees with all of Ray's worldbuilding rules, but this one is vital.

 

If you NEED 90 countries and expect your players to visit most of them, that's fine. Otherwise, most of them would probably be just as well done as an outline on the map with a few historical and economic notes. Don't go overboard here.

 

I agree, take a page from the scriptwriters book. Start out small, then expand. If you study the comments made by scriptwriters, most of them, Star Trek included; started out small, then built upon their small foundation.

 

A language familiarity chart will go a long way to making it feel like a real world. Again, don't go too far overboard. I'd suggest working out some basic regional languages and then more specific dialects from there.

 

I agree with this point. A language chart helps to crystalize a world as "real" in many fantasy fans minds. I use a language chart in my campaign, and it does wonders, if even for my own concentration and suspense of disbelief.

[Nightshade]

The reason I have so many countries is just that I have so many ideas for cultures. I have been working on this world for many years (more than I care to admit), and almost everything written has been roleplayed at some point.

 

Currently, I would guess that I am about 2/3 done with the main world book, other than the updating part that happens when the PC's change stuff.

 

I agree on the language chart. Since a lot of my world history has been roleplayed, I know where the "base" languages were from, geographically and historically speaking, and where the influences in dialect came from. So, yes, there are many countries that speak dialects of the same language (ala Spanish), or have pretty related languages (Portuguese), and languages that are somewhat related (English) and totally different (Mandarin).

 

Nightshade

[Nightshade]

Oh, this isn't a "new" project for me.

 

I did start small. Specifically, I started with a city, called Fantasmia. Then went to the country. Then the neighboring country. Then the next.

 

After a long time, my whole world write up died in a HD crash. After a lot of soul searching, I decided to recreate everything from my hard copy, but having enough detail for every country to be capable of handling a sustained campaign. That way, I can run Epic Fantasy, Low Fantasy, and everything in between on the same world. So, every country/empire/kingdom comes with several different plot hooks and dynamics. I try to keep each write-up in the 5-8 page range of just text, so as to have enough detail, but not get terribly bogged down in it. I may do some character sheets, and then an 8 1/2 x 11 freehand map. This write-up is available to the players.

 

I also have a book that I keep various plot and random facts in that the players have no access to. That way, if I decide that there is a Duke in Elendil who is a member of the Bringers of Night, I can be consistent with name, etc.

 

Nightshade

[Killer Shrike]

Re: World Creation Issues - Opinions Wanted

 

Originally posted by Nightshade

Original 3 Questions snipped

Nightshade

Just IMO:

1) & 2) Mention but dont detail

3) Yes, and its worth it

[Killer Shrike]

Also, if you are typing your material up, consider doing it in HTML form rather than Word or some such.

 

You lose pagination, but gain Hyperlinking and with a little bit of javascripting (which you can copy & paste if you dont want to learn it) you can do a lot of dynamic interaction and cross referencing.

 

The advantages to this are two fold: a) you can post it all easily on either your own web site or someone elses for the widest possible dissemination and most word processors these days can do a decent job of converting a web page to its own format for those who want it in that format, but the reverse isnt true -- the HTML generated by every word processor Ive seen yet is garbaged to hell and gone.

 

Oh yeah, and if its on a web site you can always recover it if your hard drive takes a dump.

[Nightshade]

Interesting thoughts on the HTML. Unfortunately, I suck at doing pretty much anything other than simple stuff. I really hadn't thought of the web page, so there you go.

 

I have been doing everything in Word, since I have it and was only ever planning on printing it. I don't know how easy it will be to get 100 pages redone in HTML.

 

Good advice, though. I'll have to think about it.

 

Nightshade

[Vanguard00]

Originally posted by Nightshade

I have been doing everything in Word, since I have it and was only ever planning on printing it. I don't know how easy it will be to get 100 pages redone in HTML.

 

Seriously, check it out. Just grab a Yahoo account and get the free Yahoo/Geocities webspace. Go for the "easy build" option and cut'n'paste all your Word info into the page. Even if no one else ever sees it you'll have it available whereever you go. It's fairly intuitive for beginners and you'll come to love it later.

[Eosin]

I have a fantasy lang chart RIGHT HERE but you will probably need a much more extensive chart. These are just the continental languages of my homebrew. I need to graphicize it.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Nightshade

The reason I have so many countries is just that I have so many ideas for cultures. I have been working on this world for many years (more than I care to admit), and almost everything written has been roleplayed at some point.

 

I think the assumption was, that you had just started on designing this world. Well, never miiiiind.

 

Currently, I would guess that I am about 2/3 done with the main world book, other than the updating part that happens when the PC's change stuff.

 

Sounds cool.

 

I agree on the language chart. Since a lot of my world history has been roleplayed, I know where the "base" languages were from, geographically and historically speaking, and where the influences in dialect came from. So, yes, there are many countries that speak dialects of the same language (ala Spanish), or have pretty related languages (Portuguese), and languages that are somewhat related (English) and totally different (Mandarin).

 

Great. Whats the premise of the world? Tolkienish, Le Guinish, Brooksish, or something all together different?

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Eosin

I have a fantasy lang chart RIGHT HERE but you will probably need a much more extensive chart. These are just the continental languages of my homebrew. I need to graphicize it.

 

Ummmmmm, this is a table. A chart would be a graphic, like the one in the Hero System Rulebook, with the square and round boxes.

[Killer Shrike]

Its better to know HTML of course, which is easy, but just use some WYSIWYG HTML Editor like MS Front Page. Yeah, its got its flaws and does some pretty dumb things under the hood, and a purist will give you hell about it, but if you are comfortable w/ Word you can use it pretty much as a no-brainer as most of the interface is the same.

 

To get your Word -based material into it, dont use either the the SAVE AS HTML option in WORD or the OPEN WORD DOC option in Front Page. Both produce crappy HTML.

 

Just copy the text you want to go on a given page from WORD, paste it into Notepad (this gets rid of all the crappy Word formating), and paste it into FP whereever you want it. Go thru and pretty it up, replacing formating on titles and what have you, rebuilding tables, etc.

 

If you are feeling bold, I could help you with a CSS file to give your pages a common clean-cut look pretty quickly, saving you from having to do a lot of formatting directly on the text (you just define the look in the css file as a "class" and then format the text to point to the class -- that way if you later make a change to the look & feel, you just change it in the CSS file once and everything pointing to it is automatically handled).

[Nightshade]

Originally posted by Galadorn

 

I think the assumption was, that you had just started on designing this world. Well, never miiiiind.

 

 

Sounds cool.

 

 

 

Great. Whats the premise of the world? Tolkienish, Le Guinish, Brooksish, or something all together different?

 

Oh, I understand. That's why I posted what I did... It seemed obvious that I wasn't particularly clear by the responses I was getting.

 

Well, I would call it a combination of Tolkein, Goodkind, and DragonLance with a healthy dose of Greek, Norse, Egyptian, and Native American mythology.

 

In other words, its different, but familiar. If that makes any sense.

 

My world started as DragonLance, way back when. But, I hated the books. I just liked the world (as presented in their campaign material) and the creatures, so I figured that I would run that. Well, I got really tired of people quoting crap at me and saying that I'm running my game wrong. So, I said, "Fine. You all wake up and you are in the same inn, but when you walk outside, everything is different." From there, we explored. The first thing I created was the city of Fantasmia. The second was my religion. Everything went from there.

 

Nightshade

[Nightshade]

I'll have to go look at what I have available on my computer at home for software.

 

Right now, my world is in Word, single spaced, two columns and 10 point font. I have a Table of Contents, but I am thinking of adding an index, too. With the HTML, I could just link everything, so the index may not be necessary, which would be nice. Right now, the document is something like 87 pages long, plus maps, character sheets, and the like.

 

I also save every section as its own document, too. For example, every empire/kingdom/country has its own document as well as being in the world book. It makes it easier for me to change without searching through the big document. Then I just copy/paste into the big one.

 

Thanks for the help!

 

Nightshade

[Drakkenkin]

I think your looking for more of a Lang flow chart. If you are only going to make a few flow charts there are some programs you can download that you can make the chart with.

 

One is called INSPIRATION. It's not hard to learn. When you are done making the chart just right, you can export it as an image for your book, HTML format of what not. Just don't save it only in the original projects format as you will not be able to open it after the software expires. The copy you down load is good for 30 days. During that time you should be able to get quite a bit done.

 

There are other programs that do the same thing that are just as god or better, but I can't remember their names and I don't know of any free ware programs. If any one knows of any please let me know.

 

Hmmm, there is MORE. it's free now and it makes good flow charts that are pure linear, but it sucks at the box flow chart style and it's just lines of text... like this

 

Doing this:

* if one happens-

- a

- b

*if two happens-

- a

- d

- e:

- 1

- 2

 

Anyway I think you get the idea.

[Eosin]

Originally posted by Galadorn

Ummmmmm, this is a table. A chart would be a graphic, like the one in the Hero System Rulebook, with the square and round boxes.

 

 

Once again you shower us with your wisdom and constructive advice. I believe that is semantics but if we want to play semantics once again you have opened your mouth and proven that somepeople should stay silent.

 

Semantics...this is a simple text version of my language similarities. A table for something like this would be unnecessary and overly cumbersome. A graphic, similar to the one in FREd would make it a little easier to assimilate....which was the point that everyone who reads my post, except you probably got without a seconds thought.

 

As an aside, I realize that in a vain effort to make yourself feel better you nitpick and stive to find fault in others. Relax. Take your paxil or what everelse it is that you use to control your OCD...heck, take two, I think you are probably sub-therapeudic.

 

Feel free to offer constructive critism whenever you like...but try and make it constructive. You have an eye for detail, turn it into an assest instead letting it be a liability.

 

Anyway, thanks for looking anything wrong with the chart itself? Too many languarges? Too few? Too many from the same root tongue, not enough? Names - do they suck? or do they sould like real names of languages?

[Nightshade]

Whoa... Hey there. Calm down a little.

 

I looked at your chart and I thought that it looked pretty good. It is simple and easy to follow. The language names follow the racial names (which is pretty close to how it works here on Earth), so I think that is pretty nice.

 

It is a little more simple than mine will be (for obvious reasons), but I think that it is workable.

 

Nightshade

[Blue Jogger]

Re: World Creation Issues - Opinions Wanted

 

Originally posted by Nightshade

1) I have a race of Dark Elves on my world (who doesn't?) called the Morla. Now, I want them to be evil, nasty, and altogether known as the "bad guys." I really didn't want them to be a culture that players chose their characters from. Would you put a write up of this race (culture, aspects, leadership, etc.) in your main world description, or would you leave it out to foster the mysterious side of them?

 

2) In writing up my magic, I have Infernalism (devil magic) and Diablism (demon magic). Again, these are for the bad guys to use. Should I even put them in my magic section, or should I just state that there are these two forms of magic and give an overview what other wizards might know about them, or something else?

 

I would write up the Dark Elves, but be really sketchy about the details. Give conflicting rumors, old wives tales and third-hand reports as if they were cold hard facts.

 

On Infernalism and Diablism, give an overview of what other wizards might know and give them good story or two about "You really don't want to go there". Known wizard stories of the exceptionally truehearted corrupted by the sheer temptations of that which should have remain forbidden. Again, really sketchy on exact details, heavy on dangerous and forbidden. "And madness surely will follow anyone who dares walk this path."

[Nightshade]

Similar subject, different mode:

 

I have another race, the Nightlings, that are reviled, distrusted, hated, feared, and/or killed on sight (depending on where you find one). However, this is due to a terrible misunderstanding that happened thousands of years ago, and they're really not bad guys. They pretty much just have a bad reputation.

 

I wouldn't mind a player playing one of these guys, but I don't want it to be the norm, and if normal PC's met one, I want them to react as if they were "definitely evil."

 

Should I do the same thing here?

 

Nightshade

[Vanguard00]

Originally posted by Nightshade

I have another race, the Nightlings, that are reviled, distrusted, hated, feared, and/or killed on sight (depending on where you find one). However, this is due to a terrible misunderstanding that happened thousands of years ago, and they're really not bad guys. They pretty much just have a bad reputation.

 

I wouldn't mind a player playing one of these guys, but I don't want it to be the norm, and if normal PC's met one, I want them to react as if they were "definitely evil."

 

Should I do the same thing here?

 

You could do that. Background (sketchy) info, timeline entry, some rumors/tales/legends...

 

Personally, I'd give some basics for the race & culture of the Nightlings, something for your PC to start with, then allow the player to flesh out the details (with your input and/or approval). That saves you some work and lets the player really get into his character. If s/he comes up with something cool, run with it. If not, fill in the blanks yourself.

 

You should give the player the details of the misunderstanding and let him/her go from there. Are they bitter about it? Humble? Do they want to prove themselves or merely put it all behind them?

 

As an aside, though, make sure your other PCs have reason to accept and/or trust this particular player or you're in for some rocky RPing.

[Eosin]

Originally posted by Nightshade

Whoa... Hey there. Calm down a little.

 

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

I really am not that touchy Feel free to shoot relative critism. Maybe I should figure out how that ignore list works.

 

Done. That was pretty easy, never had to use it before though.

[Nightshade]

My wife came up with a decent idea. For the Nightlings, Morla, and any other highly mysterious race that people have a prevailing attitude about, I'll write what that attitude is. Then, I'll have a separate document about what the race really is like.

 

I really have no idea how I'm going to do that with my current format for my world book, but I'm sure I'll figure it out.

 

Thanks for the ideas!

 

Nightshade

[tkdguy]

Another thing you can do with dark elves is to make them appear exactly like other elves physically. So you won't recognize them on sight. But the dark elves have been posing as other elves and causing trouble among the other races. Now all the races are starting to view all elves with suspicion, if not hostility. Of course, the elves are protesting their innocence, rightfully accusing the dark elves of being the perpetrators. But if nobody can tell an elf from a dark elf, how can you prove the veracity of the claim?