disadvantages problem

[dstarfire]

I think I must be missing something here, but the psychological class of disadvantage seems WAY too broad to me. It covers: morality and codes of behaviour, a committment to something, personality quirks, emotional trauma, basically aynthing that occurs mostly in the characters mind.

 

Yet all of those things together are only worth about 1/3 of a characters total disadvantages. I think that morals and behavioural codes should at least be a seperate category.

 

This limitation becomes especially obvious when one is creating a knight/paladin/samurai type character, where the pyschological disads can be incredibly harmful (forcing the character to suicidally stupid actions in many cases), and is the primary disadvantage for these types.

 

Seems to me the disadvantages section is still designed mostly for comic-book superheroes, rather than the universal system Hero is supposed to be.

[sbarron]

I don't understand your concern. You would like to get more points from Psych disads? It's not like there is a limit to the number of disads you can take. If you want to take more psych disads because you think they fit your character, you can.

[Ndreare]

I believe he is talking about a "Recamended" optional rule that prevents a character from taking more than X disadds from one catagory. Although it is not an actual limitation of the game or a solid rule many GM's treat it as if it were.

[Osprey]

Originally posted by Ndreare

I believe he is talking about a "Recamended" optional rule that prevents a character from taking more than X disadds from one catagory. Although it is not an actual limitation of the game or a solid rule many GM's treat it as if it were.

 

I'm getting the same impression from the first post in this thread.

 

When I GM I use the Limit EXCEPT on Psych. It encourages more character depth.

[Dust Raven]

I use and enforce the suggested limits in my campaigns. Of course, it's understood that character concept is more important that limits. So if one particular character would end up with 60 points in Psych Limits instead of the suggested max of 50, so be it. Same goes for other Disad categories as well (just in case some fool wants to take from x2 STUN & BODY from all physical attacks, plus x2 effect from all Adjustment Powers).

 

As I've understood it though, 5th Edition introduced the universal concept of "no official limits" on everything. They'll suggest using the guidelines they use for writing up their published characters, but a suggestion is as far as they'll go.

[ghost-angel]

Another thing to keep in mind is just because it's not on the character sheet doesn't mean you can't roleplay it out and/or have a particular psychological quirk.

 

The ones on the sheet are usually the most prominent or the ones most easily used against you (hence, the Disadvantage label). sometimes you can have psychological limitations that are there, but aren't very exploitable or just define personality. In which case just go ahead and another disad worth no points or just write it down.

 

there's nothing saying you can't have more psych. lim.'s than "allowed." Take as many as you see fit, your GM will decide if you get points for all of them.

 

One of the reasons I see for limiting the number of points from any one disadvantage counting is to make you diversify a bit. Sure, I could come up with hundreds of points of Psych Lim's for characters, but only having 50 to work with makes me think what else the character might have that is disadvantageous to them?

[Hugh Neilson]

Your example is on a knight, so I'm assuming a Fantasy Hero character with, say, 75 points of disad's, 25 of which come from any one source. Look at the other disadvantages this character may have:

 

Social Limitations - is he Subject to Orders from a military or religious organization, or perhaps even the King?

 

Hunted - Watched is quite common, again from superiors. Does his Knightly order have any enemies?

 

Dependent NPC: He has no relatives, no Squire, no Lady Fair, nothing?

 

Those three categpries seem like obvious choices to have some points from. Distinctive Features, Enraged, Reputation, Rivalry are less automatic, but still common for such a character. With only 75 points, taking 50 from Psych Lim's would leave negligible variety.

 

That said, as a GM, I'm pretty open to characters who exceed the max from any one category, provided the added disadvantages aren't just variations on a theme.

 

Make the code of conduct one large disad with greater frequency. [Won't hit a woman, Won't strike an unarmed opponent and Never strikes from Surprise, as separate disadvantages is a lot like taking No Right Hand one finger at a time...]

 

Getting 50 points out of knightly codes? No way. Getting 25 from codes of honour and another 15 - 25 from other, more personal, quirks? Sure.

 

But getting 2/3 of disad's from just one source when there's so much else to choose from? Why?

[dstarfire]

But getting 2/3 of disad's from just one source when there's so much else to choose from? Why?

 

Because:

1.

 

all the other categories are very specific compared to psychological. I mean there's 2 different categories for "somebody doesn't like me" (hunted and rivalry), a missing limb/ear/eye is both a physical limitation and a DF.

 

2.

 

There isn't that much else to choose from, unless you want to be a cripple, a social outcast, a berserker, or some such.

 

3.

 

Most of the become meaningless in rather common situations: social, DF, hunted, reputation, and enraged/berserk usually don't apply when your group's in the wilderness, but psych disads are ALWAYS applicable (unless of course, you're asleep or dead).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by dstarfire

But getting 2/3 of disad's from just one source when there's so much else to choose from? Why?

 

Because:

1.all the other categories are very specific compared to psychological. I mean there's 2 different categories for "somebody doesn't like me" (hunted and rivalry), a missing limb/ear/eye is both a physical limitation and a DF.

 

2.There isn't that much else to choose from, unless you want to be a cripple, a social outcast, a berserker, or some such.

 

3.Most of the become meaningless in rather common situations: social, DF, hunted, reputation, and enraged/berserk usually don't apply when your group's in the wilderness, but psych disads are ALWAYS applicable (unless of course, you're asleep or dead).

 

Ok, let's look at these.

 

1. There are three categories for "I don't like these people" - Psych Lim's, Rivalry and Enraged. A code of honour could be personal (Psych) or imposed (Watched, Social Limitation). There's always multiple ways to do more or less the same thing. As noted previously, I'm more inclined to lift this restriction on Psych's if you have 25 points of "Knightly" restrictions and other Psych's unrelated to knightly matters, but with only 75 points to play with, this shouldn't be essential to any character.

 

2. OK, let's look. Age, Accidental Change, Dependence, Susceptibility and Vulnerability should be rare in the extreme in FH, at least for a Knight (my Bard has a vulnerability, though - any guesses?). We'll avoid Unluck. We'll leave them out. Let's remember that 5 and 10 point disad's exist - you don't need to look for the big kill every time. So what could a Knight have?

 

- dependent NPC's. If you're not a social outcast, you must have friends, family, perhaps a mentor, Lady Love or Squire. This is a pretty easy disadvantage. A hero-worshipping squire that has stats as a Normal and appears on 8- is worth 10 points.

 

- Distinctive Features - Shock of red hair? That smell of rust and sweat that comes of riding in hot armor all day? Scars from training or battles? Even an Easily Concealed feature with no severe reaction is worth 5 points.

 

- Enraged/Berserk: Not for everyone, but what's wrong with a knight who is enraged when his liege, or his order, or his honor is insulted. Select one, and let's say it's on an 8/11 roll. Uncommon circumstances, so that's 10 points.

 

- Hunted/Watched. Neither he nor his associates have any enemies? Nor does he have a commander, a knightly order nor a religious sect that may check up on him? What's up with that? What about Watched by Knightly Order (more powerful, NCI, limited geographic area, Watching, 11-? That's worth 10 points.

 

- Physical Limitations - heavy sleepers, poor vision or hearing doesn't make anyone a basket case, but there's a few points to be had here if someone wants. 5 or 10 points would be pretty easy, but let's leave that one for now.

 

- Reputation - either personal or affiliated with his Order! Perhaps his Order has a Reputation for Dispensing Justice. Peasants stop him on the street to settle minor disputes. "It's mah pig, yer Lordship, and he done et it" Maybe Knights have a reputation for being disdainful of commoners, so they're not apt to provide much in the way of service. Many options exist. Let's use the first (Justice). We'll make the knights well-known, so it's frequent, and it's a world-wide order, so 10 points.

 

- Perhaps he has a Rival for promotions within his Order. There's an easy 5 points, assuming he's basically an equal.

 

- Social Limitation: is he subject to orders from the Knightly Order? Has he sworn an Oath of Fealty to the Crown? Perhaps he has religious affiliations? Any of these could make him Subject to Orders. We'll make it only Occasional, as we aren't in the army, but the missions could be dangerous, so major consequences. That's 10 points.

 

Added to 25 points for Knightly Vows, that's well over 75 points, and we haven't looked at much that's not related to his knighthood, have we?

 

Hey, if he has magical powers, maybe he loses points from a long-term drain if he breaks his Knightly vows. If not, maybe he suffers negative skill levels for a time from his own remorse if he breaches them. There's a Susceptibility too - and it's just more points for those vows, isn't it? Of course, this could be a psych lim, but as you note, there's different ways to do the same thing.

 

As to where they're relevant, how much does a Code of Honour inconvenience you in the wilderness fighting bears? No disadvantage is relevant at all times, and there's not many that can't be made relevant with some player or GM creativity.

[SleepyDrug]

My take has always been that Psych Limits are mostly up to the player to control.

 

Rivals, Hunteds, Social influences, etc....are controled by the GM.

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

(my Bard has a vulnerability, though - any guesses?)

Hmmmm... Alcohol? Mind Control? Love Potions? Attacks that effect breathing (thus his singing)? DEX Drains (affects playing an instrument)?

 

Back to the topic: I always use limits on the number of points in any one category of Disad, however, I agree that Psych Lim is so board that there shouls be an exception. I split Psych Lims into three categories:

 

Codes and Restrictions - any code of behavior whether self-imposed or required by his superior/affiliation. Code vs. Killing, Vow of Poverty, Can Never Lie, Must Always Obey the Letter and Spirit of the Law, etc.

 

Irrational Reactions - any situation, topic, thing, or group that prevents clear thinking. Bigotry, Phobias, Manias, Prejudices, In Love with X, Fascinated by Y, Obsessed with Z, etc.

 

Personality Flaws - general problems that aren't necessarily triggered by a particular stimulus. Overconfident, Underconfident, Socially Awkward, Always Telling Lame Jokes, ADD, Subconscious Death Wish, etc.

 

And of course Enraged/Berserk is also a psychological limitation, but it's already its own category.

 

I usually double the allowance for Psych Lims, but use the limit for each subcategory. Thus, in a game where the limit on any one category is 50 points, I would allow 100 points worth of Psych Lims, with no more than 50 from any of the three subcategories.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Hmmmm... Alcohol? Mind Control? Love Potions? Attacks that effect breathing (thus his singing)? DEX Drains (affects playing an instrument)?

 

Nope, nope and nope. All good ideas, though! [PRE attacks from pretty ladies, actually...]

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Back to the topic: I always use limits on the number of points in any one category of Disad, however, I agree that Psych Lim is so board that there shouls be an exception. I split Psych Lims into three categories:Codes and Restrictions; Irrational Reactions; Personality Flaws

 

An interesting selection. I question whether an externally imposed code is a psych lim. I'm moe inclined to call it a Social limitation or a Watched. After all, the character doesn't get out of the consequences with an ego roll.

 

Another comment on the "berserker, cripple or social outcast". Some might classify a character with 50 points in psych lim's as a basket case.

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

An interesting selection. I question whether an externally imposed code is a psych lim. I'm moe inclined to call it a Social limitation or a Watched. After all, the character doesn't get out of the consequences with an ego roll.

I understand what you mean, and it may be a Soc Lim or Watched in some cases, but it can be a Psych Lim too. After all the character has chosen to belong to the organization and voluntarily adheres to their code. He wants to remain in good standing with the group, and believes in their principles and causes. And this can be true even if they aren't watching him for violations. It's still a code of ethics whether he made it up himself or was taught it by someone else.

 

OTOH, if he has no real psychological commitment to the code, but just follows it so as not to get in trouble with the group, then yes, it would be Watched.

 

In some cases it would be both.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I understand what you mean, and it may be a Soc Lim or Watched in some cases, but it can be a Psych Lim too. After all the character has chosen to belong to the organization and voluntarily adheres to their code. He wants to remain in good standing with the group, and believes in their principles and causes. And this can be true even if they aren't watching him for violations. It's still a code of ethics whether he made it up himself or was taught it by someone else.

 

OTOH, if he has no real psychological commitment to the code, but just follows it so as not to get in trouble with the group, then yes, it would be Watched.

 

In some cases it would be both.

 

I agree - the key is whether the character believes in this code, or only lives up to it because he is afraid of what will happen if he doesn't. He could, of course, have a mild Psych Limit (ie in some circumstances he would break the code), and be Watched by zealots (who would want to punish him regardless of the reasons for breaking the code). Lots of good options.

[dstarfire]

hmmm, it appears that it's merely my imagination that was lacking. I'd never think of doing "a ladies man" as a vulerability.

 

When I was reading through the descriptions of the disadvantages, a lot of them sounded fairly specific.

For example social reads like variations of "a shady past", and nothing more. Reputation sounded like "known troublemaker", said specifically it referred to negative reputations only.

 

I don't remember seeing the watched one anywhere, and how do you do dependent NPC's that don't travel with you?

 

Still, I really like the idea of breaking psych into 3 categories. At the very least, codes of conduct needs to be it's own seperate category.

 

Thanks for the helpful feedback all.

[Jhereg]

Psych lims are the only category on which I don't impose a maximun number of points. Mostly because I feel they're the most useful for developing a PC's persona... and because they're the most fun.