Shape Shift - Costs END Only To Change Shape?

[WalkerGrae]

The Shape Shift power has "Costs END Only To Change Shape (+1/4)" advantage on pg. 140. This raises three Questions.

 

1. Does it cost END to resume one's normal form?

2. Does the character return to normal form when unconcious?

3. If the answer to question two is yes (as I suspect it is) can the character add the Persistant (+1/2) to stay in his shifted form when unconcious or does he have to buy the power down to 0 END (+1/2) instead of Costs END Only To Change Shape?

 

Also, I saw something about a 5E Revised Edition coming out. When is it coming out and will it be mainly typo corrections?

[ghost-angel]

1. Usually, yes since you're changing shape again. (I say usually because GMs change things occasionally.)

2. Yes, check the rules on Constant Powers FREd pg. 69 for further clarification.

3. To buy the power persistent it must cost 0 END. Rules for Persistent powers are also on pg. 69

 

last, yes a revised edition will be out, according to the release schedule, in 2005.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by ghost-angel

3. To buy the power persistent it must cost 0 END. Rules for Persistent powers are also on pg. 69

 

According to FREd, this is correct.

 

But let's look at he spirit of the rules. To be Persistant, the Power must not cost END to maintain. If it only costs END to turn on, I think Persistant should be allowed. Otherwise you can't build powers that allow you to change shape at will for a one END cost, and then maintain the shape even if stunned or knocked out.

[ghost-angel]

pg 69 - "Persistent powers never cost END."

 

To me that reads that a Persistent power will never cost endurance, no matter what.

 

HD won't even let you purchase Persistent for "Cost END only to change." - and considering Dan's adherance to the rules I'm going to use that as the defacto ruling.

 

Even Multiform, which is normally Persistent becomes "Constant" when the "Cost END only to change forms" limitation is applied - and specifically states a character will return to their base form when knocked out. (pg 138.)

 

You want it Persistent, it has to cost no END, ever.

 

But then, like I said in my answer to 1. above - GMs can change things as they see fit.

[Dust Raven]

Personaly, I think that wrong. I agree it's what the rules say, but the rules are wrong. I usually stand buy the system, but this is one case where I don't.

 

Of course, this is an easy work around using the rules. Apply Uncontrolled. Even though it'd be Constant, it will maintain itself when stunned or knocked out. Of course, there should be some reasonable common way for someone else to shut down the Power, so it's not perfect.

[JmOz]

Depending on WHY I would allow persistant on End to activate, espesialy for body altering abilities like shape shift, Growth, or shinking

[ghost-angel]

Also, sometimes it just makes sense for a shapeshifting power to not shift back when the character has been knocked out.

 

The rules say no under strick interpretation, but any reasonable GM might allow a character to remain in the shifted form unconcious. It really comes back to which would make more sense for the story, regardless of the mechanics.

[Kristopher]

One of the PCs in the game I'm trying to get going is a biomanipulator with a Shapeshift, Only Costs END to Change Shape. Personally, based on her SFX, I'd probably allow her to buy Persistant. It takes effort for her to change shape, but once she's there, it's effortless. Her body isn't constantly trying to change back, because she's actually altered herself. If she were shifted, and lost her powers somehow, she'd be stuck in the shifted form instead of returning to her base form.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Kristopher

One of the PCs in the game I'm trying to get going is a biomanipulator with a Shapeshift, Only Costs END to Change Shape. Personally, based on her SFX, I'd probably allow her to buy Persistant. It takes effort for her to change shape, but once she's there, it's effortless. Her body isn't constantly trying to change back, because she's actually altered herself. If she were shifted, and lost her powers somehow, she'd be stuck in the shifted form instead of returning to her base form.

 

That would be Persistant.

[WalkerGrae]

I had something along Kristopher's idea in mind.

 

I was basing it loosely on the character "Ka-Si-Ohma" (sp?) from a book titled "Enemy Mine." I don't remember the author's name. The character was native american shamen in south-west north America who had "retired" and went into the mountains die when he stumbled into a spacecraft mining for radioactive elements to refuel and was injured. He awoke later to descover he was young again, but was rejected as being some sort of bad spirit by his tribe and old apprentice.

 

Later in his escape he found that his "new" body would adapt on the fly as he used it like when he was running to escape his former tribe it kept getting easier to run and even increased speed outdistancing the fastest runners of the tribe with ease. Further, after losing a leg in an incident he found that his body could regenerate itself. Later afeter many years he found that he didn't age and that he could alter his bodies shape and abilities, albiet slowly and taking a hours for more radical alterations. He could sleep in his altered forms, but I do remember that his body had a tendency to do what was needed to keep him alive if he was unconcious which could lead to a few problems.

 

However, as the rules read it's a constant power so the character would revert when unconcious and it wouldn't cost end to return to normal (otherwise he wouldn't revert).

 

But, I think Persistant with Costs END Only To Change makes a viable concept without being unbalancing. And as always, there's almost certainly another route through the rules that will work just as well.

 

Have fun.

[Mike W]

My GM and I decided that it does not cost END for me to resume normal shape because I am effectively turning the power "off". Also, if you would revert from getting KO'ed - wouldn't you take additional STUN damage from getting KO'ed, then reverting and having to pay END you didn't have? Logically, you shouldn't pay END for turning a power off.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

That would be Persistant.

 

Nah, not in this case. It's an even trade-off. If she gets knocked out while shifted, her friends don't recognize her.

[ghost-angel]

Originally posted by Mike W

My GM and I decided that it does not cost END for me to resume normal shape because I am effectively turning the power "off". Also, if you would revert from getting KO'ed - wouldn't you take additional STUN damage from getting KO'ed, then reverting and having to pay END you didn't have? Logically, you shouldn't pay END for turning a power off.

 

You don't pay the END cost of reverting when knocked unconcious.

 

And depending on the special effect of the power it may not be as simple as "turning the power off".

[Mike W]

Actually, I think you would be hard pressed to define a special effect where reverting to base form is not the power "turning off". Also, the idea that you could have a power that costs END to change you to your base form when you are concious but which changes your form when you are knocked out, yet does not cost END is, to me, impossible or nearly so. After all, the power shouldn't revert you to a base shape if it doesn't turn off - unless maybe you're buying the power with some kind of concentration limit, which would not be the same thing. Even then, I've never seen a GM that would let you have an effect that normally costs END operate when you're unconcious. I'd argue such a thing should be bought at 0 END if it's going to change your shape while you're out.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Nah, not in this case. It's an even trade-off. If she gets knocked out while shifted, her friends don't recognize her.

 

Is she knocked out often enough in a situation when her friends wouldn't know what shape she's in to make up for all that time she isn't spending END to maintain other shapes?

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Is she knocked out often enough in a situation when her friends wouldn't know what shape she's in to make up for all that time she isn't spending END to maintain other shapes?

 

She actually did pay for the fact that she's not paying END...that +1/4 Only costs END to activate Advantage. It's just that the SFX indicate to me that she wouldn't automatically revert of knocked out, and that's such a small thing that I can't see making the character buy Persistant for it, especially given the potential problem I mentioned.

[Chris Goodwin]

It all depends on whether you're about strict adherence to the rules or whether you're about having fun and making the game work for you.

[ghost-angel]

Originally posted by Mike W

Actually, I think you would be hard pressed to define a special effect where reverting to base form is not the power "turning off". Also, the idea that you could have a power that costs END to change you to your base form when you are concious but which changes your form when you are knocked out, yet does not cost END is, to me, impossible or nearly so. After all, the power shouldn't revert you to a base shape if it doesn't turn off - unless maybe you're buying the power with some kind of concentration limit, which would not be the same thing. Even then, I've never seen a GM that would let you have an effect that normally costs END operate when you're unconcious. I'd argue such a thing should be bought at 0 END if it's going to change your shape while you're out.

 

Multiform defined as "no true form" .. if you're building Nyarlathotep The Crawling Chaos what's the base form? It doesn't have one SFX wise, sure the character sheet has one for the purpose of "points" but Characters don't know what "points" are, only that it can assume any shape it wants and has no "true shape." So changing from shape to shape is not "turning a power on or off" from the Charater POV, it's just changing the shape.

 

I've a werewolf character that doesn't have a "true" shape .. it believes all it's forms are equal and no one form is it's real form, they stay in whatever shape they had when knocked out, they don't turn anything on or off either. But another one in the campaign is a Human infected with lyncanthropy, they firmly believe their true form to be Human and always revert to that shape if knocked out. He changes back to human (turns off his werewolf shape).

 

It all depends on how you describe the character. In the case of the Bio-Manipulator as the subject of this posting here she is a Human (true shape) adjusting her base molecules to a specific purpose, but would most likely consider herself to be "Human" in her "true form." She turns off her bio-manipulation to bring her body back to it's original form.

 

Never let game mechanics get in the way of the SFX and character POV. If the characters don't believe it's a "power" to turn on and off, or something they activate to use then it's not. It's like saying picking up a glass is turning your arm and hand on.

[Mike W]

Ghost-angel,

 

If you're building it as a multi-form, then it's not really shape- shift like we've been talking about and works differently. Multiform is persistent, shapeshift is not. The question has been, should a character be able to pay for "only costs END to shapeshift" and then not revert when they are knocked out and should they have to pay end to change. I would argue "no" to both because shapeshift, as it is defined in the book, should turn off when the character gets knocked unconcious and not cost END to revert to "normal" because a shape shifting character, by definition, must have a "default" form and returning to that default form WOULD be turning the power off. You build the werewolf who thinks all of their forms are equal with multiform. You build the one that reverts with shapeshift.

 

And sorry, picking up a glass is not the same thing at all, though I don't think too many people who got knocked out would hold onto one they were holding when it happened.

[ghost-angel]

I could argue the Shape-Shift power needs not be an "on-off" thing. I would build a being in a constant state of flux with Shape-Shift, stating that the being has no base form, it's completely amorphous. It didn't start anywhere, and isn't going anywhere. What would you revert that to if you knocked it out? There's nothing to revert to at all under that SFX. Mechanically you could turn the power on and off, but once inside the game there's no way I'd define it as turning anything off or on or activating it. It just is, the being changes shape all the time, constantly adjusting itself - I'd even go so far to argue that whatever form it was in was it's current base form, but that would change the second I changed forms then the new form would be the base form.

 

I think the basic crux of the question/issue here is .. Is the shifted form considered "on" or is merely changing shape considered "on". Is the "on" state only happening while the shift is occuring and then the Shape-Shift is "off" once the form is assumed? Or are you conciously preventing your body from returning to it's previous state making the Shape-Shift effectively "on" while you're in the new shape?

 

In other words .. does the character need to keep any form of concious control over the new form or is it a kind of fire-and-forget method?

[Mike W]

Ghost-angel,

 

The being you just described obviously needs to buy uncontrolled on its power - it isn't in control of it(and the case could again be made that it should be built as multiform, not shapeshift) but in either case, you're essentially changing the basic definition of the power - whether you're in control and pay END or whether your body is in control and you're not is a big difference in the definition of the power. And even something in a "constant state of flux" had to start out as SOMETHING, even if it was nothing more than a gelatinous pile of goo.

[ghost-angel]

Mike W

 

I think we're going to end up disagreeing fundamentally on this in the end..

 

I wouldn't put uncontrolled on Amorphous Blob since it can control what it changes to next. And it can go either way for Shape Shift or Multiform, MF is into another being (which this could be argued for). But I would use SS to simulate the same being all the time, only it's changes a fundamental part of it's appearance.

 

Mechanics wise you need a "base form" for point tracking, In play you need none of that - the only reason you define a "base" form is because you're assuming it had some non-flux state of being, which isn't true.

 

Basically I'm arguing that a character that has "END only to Change" on Shape Shift doesn't ness. have to 'revert' to anything if knocked out. If I define Shape Shift as "fundamentally changing my molecules permanently until I change them again" with "It takes me effort to do so". In non-mechanical terms - I permanently change myself and can do so again with a bit of effort. Mechanically I add "Pays END only to Change" to ShapeShift.

 

Going back to a mechanical POV this would make more sense to use ShapeShift because you're not becoming a new thing (character sheet), your changing the thing you are as you appear/taste/touch/smell etc.. to others - outward shape instead of outward and inward shape.

 

I see Multiform as changing the fundamental being of the character - inward and outward, and ShapeShift as changing only the outward shape but leaving the same being on the inside.

[Kristopher]

In this case, I'd have to say that there are some SFXs that would, in my book, result in a character with "Costs END to Change Shape" not automatically reverting back when they are knocked out. However, I would also rule that such an SFX would require the character to spend END to shift back.

[ghost-angel]

Originally posted by Kristopher

In this case, I'd have to say that there are some SFXs that would, in my book, result in a character with "Costs END to Change Shape" not automatically reverting back when they are knocked out. However, I would also rule that such an SFX would require the character to spend END to shift back.

 

Yes. In fact, if I add "Costs END to change" to a character I assume the always pay the END to shift forms. But that's me.

[Mike W]

Yep, I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree Ghost-angel.