RSR. Can you think of a different way?

[sbarron]

I have never liked the idea of RSR for spells. Well, maybe I don't dislike the idea of it, just wish I could think of an good alternative. As a RPG balancing mechanism, it's excellent. Having a spell not go off because a player blew a roll isn't very heroic, though. And I don't know that it's really in genre, either. Or, it probably is in genre, but it's not as common in fantasy literature as it is in fantasy role-play.

 

There are several reasons for this, but mostly I think it's that the writer decides when a spell fails in a story. Spell failure usually results in something comical, but no big deal. And almost never will a spell fail when all the chips are down and the it's time for the heroes to be there most heroic.

 

The opposite is true in RPGs. Most spells get cast in combat, and spells failing aren't funny at all. Especially if you have side effects. And there is nothing but probability preventing a PC from blowing a roll at a crucial time in the story. Hell, I think we'd all agree it happens more often when it matter most. Sure, I could hand-wave that bad roll, but I'll feel like I cheated if I did.

 

I do like the idea that a spell can be disrupted if the wizard gets hit while doing their thing, however. Just not that a Magic Skill 16- with a 40 pt power results in a miscast 1 time in 4. 18- gets you 1 time in 10, which is way better, but still results in random failures that I don't think fit the Genre. If something disrupts you, that's one thing (which the GM can control). It's something else when the power is built to fail every so often.

 

So, I guess that is a long intro to say: I don't want to use RSR for my magic system. Does anyone else not use RSR for their magic system, and if so, how do you do it?

[Talon]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

You could always require a "trimmed down" RSR that effectively works out to 18- most of the time, and then apply penalties for hazardous situations (i.e., casting with an armed opponent next to you).

 

I think the reason RSR is so popular is that's it's perceived as a way to limit spell Active Point totals (which is true to an extent). If you get rid of RSR, make sure you have a good method for limiting / normalizing spell AP totals.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

I have never liked the idea of RSR for spells. Well, maybe I don't dislike the idea of it, just wish I could think of an good alternative. As a RPG balancing mechanism, it's excellent. Having a spell not go off because a player blew a roll isn't very heroic, though. And I don't know that it's really in genre, either. Or, it probably is in genre, but it's not as common in fantasy literature as it is in fantasy role-play.

 

Is this more or less heroic than the knight missing the dramatic sword swing because his roll was off? or the rogue stepping on a stick while sneaking because he missed a roll? or being arrested because you missed your persuasion roll?

 

There are several reasons for this, but mostly I think it's that the writer decides when a spell fails in a story. Spell failure usually results in something comical, but no big deal. And almost never will a spell fail when all the chips are down and the it's time for the heroes to be there most heroic.

 

Again...how is this different than anything else? How many fights does Conan lose?

 

The opposite is true in RPGs. Most spells get cast in combat, and spells failing aren't funny at all. Especially if you have side effects. And there is nothing but probability preventing a PC from blowing a roll at a crucial time in the story. Hell, I think we'd all agree it happens more often when it matter most. Sure, I could hand-wave that bad roll, but I'll feel like I cheated if I did.

 

I do like the idea that a spell can be disrupted if the wizard gets hit while doing their thing, however. Just not that a Magic Skill 16- with a 40 pt power results in a miscast 1 time in 4. 18- gets you 1 time in 10, which is way better, but still results in random failures that I don't think fit the Genre. If something disrupts you, that's one thing (which the GM can control). It's something else when the power is built to fail every so often.

 

So, I guess that is a long intro to say: I don't want to use RSR for my magic system. Does anyone else not use RSR for their magic system, and if so, how do you do it?

 

Why should magic be exempt. In a novel, the writer determines everything. All crucial momments are decided. Why should magic be more reliable than an epic warriors sword swing? Or the world's greatest thief's stealth ability?

[austenandrews]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

I've got spells in my game that use RSR, but blowing the roll results not in total failure but in less control. For instance, a spell called Ailing is a Suppress on one of several stats. With a skill roll the caster can choose which stat to affect. Without a skill roll, the stat is determined randomly. That way it does work when the chips are down, but it has a degree of unpredictability that can actually heighten tension at crucial moments.

 

-AA

[AlHazred]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

In a Vancian magic system, master magicians would have no RSR on their spells. In fact, you couldn't be considered a real mage if there was any chance your spells would fail.

[sbarron]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

Why should magic be exempt. In a novel' date=' the writer determines everything. All crucial momments are decided. Why should magic be more reliable than an epic warriors sword swing? Or the world's greatest thief's stealth ability?[/quote']

 

Because the epic warrior doesn't roll to see if he can attack. He just does it. He makes his attack roll, which will probably miss 1 time in 216. Same with the thief and a stealth roll. He just does it. The wizard has to:

 

a) roll to see if his spell works

then he gets to do it.

[austenandrews]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

You could require Side Effects on all spells. The primary effects would always activate, but a Skill Roll would be required to eliminate the SE. So a less-skilled magician could attempt powerful spells and pay the price if he's not up to the challenge. That seems genre to me. It would also encourage the player to choose less than the maximum Active Points of his spells, which is a significant function of RSR.

 

Here's another crazy idea: As Talon said, RSR serves as a way to mitigate Active Points. Instead of a modifier of -1 per 10 pts. on a Skill Roll, why not apply that modifier to OCV? Or even DCV while casting? Or if the spellcaster blows his Skill Roll, apply the difference to his OCV or DCV?

 

Then again, reading your initial post, it sounds like you want a spell to possibly be disrupted if the magician gets distracted in combat. So why not use RSR, but only require the roll if the magician gets distracted/wounded/choose your condition? Probably reduce the Limitation value by 1/4 (maybe more, I don't have the book beside me).

 

-AA

[Killer Shrike]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

Er...just dont require RSR, and find some other limiting factor for your magic system. Your assuming that you have to have it, and you dont. It's just one of many ways to limit Magic.

 

I dont care for RSR either, and dont use it for many Magic Systems, or use it in limited circumstances.

 

Heres some notes on Control Factors for various Magic Systems extracted from my website. RSR is a form of Reliability Control. Its just one color on the pallette; if you dont want it on the canvas of your Magic System, just use some other colors instead.

 

CONTROL FACTORS

The following list of control factors that a GM should consider when designing a Magic System is not exhaustive, but is intended to help a GM balance their Magic System(s) for play. A Magic System does not have to have Control Factors, but most do, and many have several types of Control Factors at varying levels of severity.

OPPORTUNITY COST CONTROL

Alternately called an "overhead" cost, this is one of the most direct means of keeping Magic Systems on a short leash. This means of control revolves around the Real Cost of all Magic abilities and related enablers, and aims to ensure that the cost in Character Points to a character for the privelege of using a particular type of Magic is sufficiently high so that other character types remain competitive (as their Character Points spent on things other than Magic are of comparable utility).

In most systems where the Magic User pays most or all of the cost of their Magic Systems nothing else needs to be added to ensure that the character has insufficient points left over to over-excel beyond other characters built on similar points. In some other Magic Systems, such as a VPP model, where the Magic User is not paying directly for the cost of their spells additional measures are necessary to keep the "total cost of ownership" for their Magic System at a level that is fair to characters of other archetypes. Requiring one or more Power Skill rolls associated with the learning or use of Magic abilities, or requiring access Talents to gain access to Magic abilities are both straightforward ways of working in "hidden costs" into a Magic System. As a side note, VPP's already have a Opportunity Cost worked into them via the aptly named "Control Cost" mechanism, so be sure to consider that factor when deciding whether or not a VPP based Magic System has a sufficiently high Opportunity Cost.

VOLUME AND FREQUENCY CONTROL

Another means of keeping Magic Users under control is to work in specific limits on either the number of Magic Abilities they may have, and/or the number of Magic Abilities they may use in a given span of time, and/or the number of uses of Magic Abilities they may user per span of time. This is probably the most common means of controlling Magic Users in Fantasy RPG's in general and a concept most players are already familiar with in some form or another.

An example of this of course is the classic X/Day/Spell Level mechanic or xD&D, but finite Mana points, Fatigue levels, and any system where a de facto practical limit on the number of uses of their abilities is placed upon Magic Users are all examples of this type of restriction.

The HERO System contains several mechanics that can be used to good effect for this type of control, including Endurance, Long Term Endurance, Endurance Reserve "Mana Pools", Charges, and the unusual Delayed Effect Advantage.

RELIABILITY CONTROL

Still another means of ameliorating the impact of Magic Users is to restrict the reliability of the their abilities. If their Magic works sporadically or has some element of unreliability individual Magic Users are less overpowering due to a lack of consistency. This method also forces Magic Users to be conservative in their playing, which can prevent them from dominating play.

Whether Magic sometimes inherently fizzles, is based on some primal force of Chaos, requires the constant appeasement of some higher entity, or is just a very intricate process that has to be executed in exactly the correct fashion, they are all samples of Magic Systems that suffer from a form of Reliability Control.

The HERO System contains to essential mechanics that can be used to good effect for this type of control, Activation and Requires a Skill Roll in all their various permutations.

APPLICABILITY CONTROL

Yet another means of limiting Magic Use is to define broad meta-rules regarding what Magic can and can't do at a very high level, or what a particular Magic System can and can't do at a lower level.

If Magic cant do certain things like bring back the dead, travel to or open portals to other dimensions, allow people to fly unassisted, or has other such blanket restrictions regardless of system this is a form of Applicablity Control. If a specific Magic System grants Magic abilities that are only usable while the Magic Users qualifies for a certain yes/no status or acts in accordance to some particular code of behavior, this is also a form of Applicability Control.

In the HERO System there are many ways to go about putting some form of Applicablity Control into effect. One method is the 4th Edition style "allowable Powers" method, where a GM indicates which Hero System Powers are allowable to build Spells upon. Another method is Reason-from-Effect based, where in the GM indicates what game effects are and are not possible regardless of the base Powers used to build the effect. Another method is to apply "Limited Power" Limitations to individual Power Constructs indicating that they can't be or may only be used in certain circumstances.

IMPACT CONTROL

Some Magic Systems are inherently risky or outright dangerous to a Magic User, and others have in-game effects which are undesirable, expensive, or deleterious. While their Magic may be powerful it comes with either a steep price or a dangerous risk, or both.

Any Magic System where the caster suffers some long term effect or there is a risk or certainty of collateral damage, or the Magic User must enter into some bargain/contract, or use of Magic abilities has some severe cost such as requiring expensive and/or difficult components which are consumed in the process of using the Magic can be said to have an Impact Control.

This type of restriction can take many forms in the HERO System, ranging from Side Effects, expendible FOCI, Susceptibilities to ones one Magic Powers, and so on; however in many cases this type of control factor is also a feature of the setting and is applied liberally by the GM at their discretion independent of anything on a character's sheet. This might take the form of an organization that persecutes Magic Users, public sentiment, or even a custom house-ruled mechanic for something like the Paradox concept from Mage the Ascension or Quiet from Ars Magica.

ACQUISITION CONTROL

Some Magic Systems limit the number of Magic abilities a Magic User may have, or control the manner in which a Magic User may gain new abilities, or have a fixed/set list of prebuilt Power Constructs which is not expandible.

Systems with specific number limits on Magic abilities, require elaborate study periods with Characteristic or Skill Rolls to learn a new Magic ability, or more commonly there is a specific list of allowed prebuilt Power Constructs are all limited by an Acquisition Control.

This type of control is mostly meta-game, determined by guidelines put into place by the GM. A GM might write up a list of Magic abilities and simple say thats all that there is available. A GM might say that a character may only have as many Magical abilities as their INT rating, or that a Magic User must learn Magic abilities to a "list" via an amount of study time equal to Active Points divided by 10 in hours or days or weeks, that Magic Users must make a Skill Roll of some sort at -1 per 10 AP, or any other high level campaign ground rules.

ACCESS CONTROL

Some Magic Systems are not easily accessible, requiring some special quality to use, or individual Magic abilities are not freely available and must be garnered from finite difficult to find/use sources. Some Magic Systems might require instruction which is only attainable from certain discerning and structured sources.

Any Magic System where a person must be born with the propensity for Magic, must be taught at a veritable handful of difficult-to-get-into establishments or individual mentors who only take a limited number of apprentices aver the course of their lifetime, or where Magic abilities must each be learned from rare tablets which are difficult to find and jealously guarded, a system where each Magic User has one native ability and can only get more abilities by slaying other Magic Users, or any other system that deliberately restricts the ability to use Magic Abilities is under a form of Access Control.

There are several ways to handle this in the HERO System such as Custom Talents that allow access to Magic abilities, using a form of Independent on Magic abilities to make them "takeable", and so forth, but this method of control is largely a factor of the setting and how prevalent the GM makes opportunities for characters to come into contact with new Magic abilities.

CASTABILITY CONTROL

Some Magic Systems have guidelines regarding the way in which Magic abilities are "cast" or otherwise used. Some systems allow a Magic User mostly unrestricted access to all of the their available Magic abilities at once where as other Magic Systems require a Magic User to pre-select a list of Magic abilities available to them for a given day. Other Magic Systems place restrictions on the where and/or how of Magic ability usage, the number of people involved, or other details.

If a Magic System requires that all Magic abilities take (0 DCV Full Turn Incantations and Gestures), or that all available abilities for the day be listed in a VPP Pool at the beginning of each day, or require that all Magic abilities take Ritual or Window of Opportunity, or OIF: Bulky, and other such highly specific restrictions about the actual activation of the Magic abilities, then that type of Magic System has Castability Controls applied to it.

There are dozens of ways of applying this sort of control in the HERO System, but the exact guidelines being applied are usually mandated as part of the campaign guidelines.

POINT CAP CONTROL

Some Magic Systems might be limited by actual Active Points caps. This could consist of a flat AP cap applied to all Magic abilities, a cap determined formulaically (such as Total Character Points/3 or 5 or some other formula), or something more complicated such as a system whereby several different types of Magic have varrying AP Caps based upon category of SFX.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

Taken from this page (the page is still in "Rough Draft" mode):

 

Magic System Design (Rough Draft)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

And here are several Magic Systems that dont use RSR inherently (though individual Spells may have RSR vs "Spell Resistance" in some of the systems, they dont have to):

 

Wizards & Magni

 

Sorcerers & Stregari

 

Elementalists

 

Aeldenari

 

Totemic Shaman & Piedragemasi

 

And here are two that do use RSR (one of which is a Skill Spell system)

 

Magicians

 

Sortiligists

[Old Man]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

And here I thought I would eb able to add something...hehehe

[Earen]

Re: RSR. Can you think of a different way?

 

I require RSR for most of my magic systems ... because I do think it is very appropriate to the genre. What my players put to good use is the Time Chart rule in FREd pg. 28 ... which gives you +1 for each step down the time chart. So when you absolutely need that 3d6 RKA to go off ... you tell the warrior to hold his ground dammit and give me time to do this right!

 

And then cross your fingers ...