Penetrating vs. Force Field

[Agent Chains]

Hello everyone,

 

I would just like to make sure I have a rule correct and then get some input on some creative vengence on a player. You see I had some players that didn't like having an arbitrary point limits on their powers. So, I said fine no limit. BUT if you spend too much making one or two huge mega powers you will have few points left over to do anything else, will be fairly one dimensional with big gaping weaknesses and no secondary or backup powers. And I will exploit and torture you with said gaping weaknesses repeatedly.

 

Well, all but one of the players paid attention to my warning and just made one or two slightly more powerful signature powers along with the rest of their stuff. Then there was the guy that put all his points on two powers. A massivly tough force globe(force wall that must be a one hex globe) and TK. I was nice for the first couple adventures and now am starting the torture.

 

First I tossed in a teleporter. He didn't much like it when suddenly someone was standing inside his force globe with him or when something got teleported inside him. The second one is my rules question. For some reason I have never used the penetrating advantage much, so this is my question. Viper agent fires special 1d6 penetrating ammo(22 active points) at cocky superhero standing behind his huge 100 active point force wall. Agent rolls 3 body which bounces, but does 1 body penetrating. Force walls have no body so the force wall drops and the special bullet hits superhero doing 1 body and leaving him wide open as he has no other defenses. Do I have that correct?

 

I was also thinking(for irony sake) of having a villian with a neural disruptor at some point(1d6 or 2d6 intelligence drain at range). If possible I want to use low point powers to kick his but around the block a bit. I think it funny to use powers that are much smaller than his huge "invincible" defense to mess with him. Any creative help on other 50 active point or less powers to drive him nuts would be appreciated.

 

Oh yes, almost forgot. He has a very high ego score so mental powers are hard to use against him.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Viper agent fires special 1d6 penetrating ammo(22 active points) at cocky superhero standing behind his huge 100 active point force field. Agent rolls 3 body which bounces, but does 1 body penetrating. Force fields have no body so the force field drops and the special bullet hits superhero doing 1 body and leaving him wide open as he has no other defenses. Do I have that correct?

 

That is NOT correct. The force field does not go down, it stays up.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

I'm a bit confused by your choice of words. A foirce FIELD would not go down. A force WALL would go down. Your post uses the two terms interchangeably.

 

If the force wall goes down, the atack can pass through and hit the target, but the Force Wall's defenses are still applied, so that attack likely won't hurt too badly. Our Hero better be ready to abort and put the wall back up, or t6he next shot will hurt severely.

 

For your second question, unless the Force Wall has exotic defenses, exotic attacks pass right through - it's transparent. An AVLD versus Flash, or a ranged Drain or Transfer , wouldn't need much in the way of active points to do him some harm. 3d6 AVLD vs Sight Flash + 3d6 Sight Flash, Linked, is a 52.5 Active Point, 47.5 real point power. It works remarkably well if he has no flash defense.

 

An Indirect attack (and telekinesis always is) can ignore the force wall entirely.

 

You can also put him in situations where the Wall must come down. What if he needs to pick something up? Well, it's outside the force wall, isn't it?

[McCoy]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Well' date=' all but one of the players paid attention to my warning and just made one or two slightly more powerful signature powers along with the rest of their stuff. Then there was the guy that put all his points on two powers. A massivly tough force globe([b']force wall [/b] that must be a one hex globe) and TK. I was nice for the first couple adventures and now am starting the torture.

 

First I tossed in a teleporter. He didn't much like it when suddenly someone was standing inside his force globe with him or when something got teleported inside him. The second one is my rules question. For some reason I have never used the penetrating advantage much, so this is my question. Viper agent fires special 1d6 penetrating ammo(22 active points) at cocky superhero standing behind his huge 100 active point force field. Agent rolls 3 body which bounces, but does 1 body penetrating. Force fields have no body so the force field drops and the special bullet hits superhero doing 1 body and leaving him wide open as he has no other defenses. Do I have that correct?[emphasis added]

Force Wall or Force Field? Game mechanics on penetraiting would differ.

[McCoy]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

If this is force wall, the character is a telekinetic in a giant hamster ball?

 

Keep in mind that TK requires line of sight. Have an agent spray paint his hamster ball (darkness, one hex, OAF, one continuing charge).

 

Next time you make a brick with growth, include an attack with double knockback, knockback only, and watch the hamster ball get kicked soccer style.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Do you mean to say the guy bought a 100 point Force Wall and didn't include Hardened? If that's the case, don't bother with the INT drain, his intelligence is already low enough!

 

Try these on him: Armor Piercing, Find Weakness, Ego Attack (his high EGO will give him a high ECV, but no defenses). How 'bout a Desolid guy who simply walks through the FW and then goes solid again? Or just to freak him out, Images of people easily passing through his FW? How 'bout a "create water" Transform, Indirect, gradually fill his hamster ball with water. Does he have Life Support? Even if he's got Power Defense, this will still work, since it isn't transforming him.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Force fields have no body so the force field drops and the special bullet hits superhero doing 1 body and leaving him wide open as he has no other defenses. Do I have that correct?

 

Its correct for FORCE WALLS, which I assume is what you mean contextually. You might want to check the FAQ, it has a few entries on FW such as this.

 

Force Walls without Hardened are basically a waste of character points IMO.

 

 

I was also thinking(for irony sake) of having a villian with a neural disruptor at some point(1d6 or 2d6 intelligence drain at range). If possible I want to use low point powers to kick his but around the block a bit. I think it funny to use powers that are much smaller than his huge "invinsible" defense to mess with him.

 

Force Walls arent Invisible unless he bought it with IPE. As an END costing power it is visible by default (some powers specifically override this maxim, such as Density Increase, but FW isnt one of them).

 

 

Also, to have a FW "globe" actually takes 2" of FW as FW only protects 3 contiguous hex faces per 1".

 

 

In general, it is my opinion that FW kind of blows chunks anyway. I usually just go with some form of Barrier Entangle, TK, and/or a Force Field depending on what aspect of FW Im interested in.

 

 

There are so many ways of messing up Force Wall Boy. AVLD is your friend, in this case, and even if he has a high EGO, a decent mentalist with a better ECV will still mess him up with EGO Blasts. Or better yet, a Drain vs EGO followed by a 0 END Continuous Uncontrolled (Turns off when the target takes BODY damage from a source other than themselves- heh heh, take that Mr. "I cant be hurt in my FW" Boy) 1d6 EGO Attack will grind him down, even if he gets rid of the Mentalist before he goes unconcious.

 

Darkness and Flash will render him useless.

 

Fully Indirect Attacks will make him hate life of course.

 

Remember that FWs cant exert force -- so just TK grab him or entangle him with an Entangle that blocks sight group. Heh heh. That last one will totally screw him. He wont be able to use his TK to break out because he cant see, and the FW cant exert any pressure on the entangle itself, and he cant reach the entangle with his bare hands while the FW is up. Vicious.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Force Walls without Hardened are basically a waste of character points IMO.

 

In general, it is my opinion that FW kind of blows chunks anyway. I usually just go with some form of Barrier Entangle, TK, and/or a Force Field depending on what aspect of FW Im interested in.

 

I've experimented with FW with two characters in the past. One had a multi with two FW slots - Energy, ransparent to Physical, and Physical, transparent to energy. They were no range - used as a personal shield. He can set the DEF.

 

He has been surprisingly effective in straight up combat. He does failry decent in a mixed fight, but when all your opponents have energy attacks (VIPER), say, he's almost unstoppable. Of course, I left in the fact that someone can get him from behind. He was an NPC experiment, but the group liked him and he eventually joined.

 

The second is a new character with a VPP. I was expecting to use a 12-15 pt force field to bolster his defenses, but I took a shot with a 12/12 personal force wall, and he's done quite nicely. I expect he'll meet someone who easily breaks it eventually, at which time he'll likely start mixing his defensive powers up a bit. He's been carrying a Flash and Flash AVLD combo to attack, which is transparent to his Wall, but he can always take Indirect attacks if the need arises (or swap out to a force field instead).

 

For a lasting wall, I agree limited Entangles work far better.

[devlin1]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Force Walls arent Invisible unless he bought it with IPE.

I think he meant invincible.

[McCoy]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

How 'bout a "create water" Transform' date=' Indirect, gradually fill his hamster ball with water. Does he have Life Support? Even if he's got Power Defense, this will still work, since it isn't transforming him.[/quote']

Love it!

[McCoy]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Remember that FWs cant exert force -- so just TK grab him or entangle him with an Entangle that blocks sight group. Heh heh. That last one will totally screw him. He wont be able to use his TK to break out because he cant see' date=' and the FW cant exert any pressure on the entangle itself, and he cant reach the entangle with his bare hands while the FW is up. Vicious.[/quote']

Very!

 

Hamster Ball Boy has certailny brightened my day. Will have to remember him when I need some "Legion of Substitute Heores" types.

 

Does he have some Life Support? If not, how much air is in his hamster ball anyway? Maybe after half a dozen RECs he has to drop it for at least a phase?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Does he have some Life Support? If not' date=' how much air [i']is[/i] in his hamster ball anyway? Maybe after half a dozen RECs he has to drop it for at least a phase?

 

I believe force walls are porous by default (they can't suffocate someone, theywon't hold water in or out, etc.). I asked Steve about an adder for non-porous, but he couldn't recall such a ruling.

 

Of course, this means that gas attacks (NND's normally) will pass right through them.

 

For my own curiosity, how big is the force wall? 100 AP would normally be 20/20, but that assumes no extra inches to reach all the way around, and full END. 13/13 with +1", 0 END would also be 100 active points, and wouldn't be impossible to breach on a regular basis.

[Agent Chains]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Sorry. I was in a hurry when I posted and did misstype several times. Yes Force Wall is what I meant. And Invincible not Invisible is also what I meant.

 

Thank you for the many ideas. I know I could easily overwhelm hamster boy with things like indirect and armor piercing killing attacks, but due to the fact that he has no other defenses(and so so body and so so pd), that could just end up out right killing him(which is why the penetrating is being kept to 1d6 because the second shot will have nothing to stop it). I would rather have him willingly redesign his character a bit due to general suffering. The entangle blocking sight is very nice, that will drive him nuts(you can tell I have been playing fantasy hero for too long, my champions has gotten rusty). The filling it with water sounded awesome until Hugh pointed out the porous fact. Of course, porous does open up the gas attack which I had just assumed it would block, but if he can't sufficate then gas can get through.

 

The force ball was built as follows 15pd/15ed, 2 hexes to make the ball, and 1/2 end. I know in some campaigns 15 might fall more often, but in my campaign attack levels only have a small chance. Which is of couse why he chose to do this. But I don't want to jack up the attacks and screw over the other players, so I am just looking to arm the various minions with a wider variety of weapons and powers. I guess I am looking for the smaller powers because I want this guy to have to worry about the little minions as well as the big bad at the climax. Actually, I suppose this will help me get back in the groove of champions again. Now that I am introducing Viper I think various gas and entangle grenades might be the order of the day for a while.

 

Thanks again everyone.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Based on what you describe above, I'm more and more enamoured of the Flash aproach. I'm not convinved he can't use TK to rip off the entangle - it blocks sight, but he still clearly knows it's there. It also does Stun only, so your concern about killing him is mitigated.

 

Anything that reduces defenses of the Bubble would also help. AP, Penerating, etc. You note he has no other defenses, but your com,ment on attacks has me seeing a 10-12d6 average. So the Wall goes down and he taxes 1 BOD. The next attack is a 12d6 attack which gets average STUN (42) and good BOD (say 17). He's probably got some DEF, say 5, so he takes 37 STUN and 12 BOD. he's not dead, but he'll be racked up for a while. If you really want to torture the player for failure to consider the weaknesses of his character, taking him out of the action for an extended period due to BOD damage, or making him limp along down 8 BOD might be very effective.

 

Actually, I might eve allow such a character in my game. However, the player would need to be aware that, in circumstances where the Wall fails (and these will exist) he's likely looking at being one punched. It's a lot like the guy with 18 DCV - you don't get hit much, but when you do it REALLY hurts.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Klein-Minkowski Field Effect Generator

 

Teleportation 2" (straight up)

- Area of Effect: 1 Hex (+½ )

- Continuous (+1)

- Usable As An Attack (+1)

- 0 END (+½)

- Uncontrolled (+½)

- Ranged (+½)

- OIF Ring (-½)

- Req. A Skill Roll vs. (Skill of your choice) (-½)

 

20 Active 10 Real

 

This ring-sized device is capable of creating a localized distortion in space-time, warping a small area of space into a continuous loop. Anyone or anything caught in the loop will fall continuously until the effect ends or they are removed from the area of effect. Unless special precautions are taken, the falling velocity they gained while in the loop will remain with them when they leave the area of effect. Other space-warping effects, such as dimensional shifts, gravity-based effects, or most teleportation will disrupt the field and end the effect.

 

Game Notes: Targets are teleported 2" straight up, and then fall into the effect again, endlessly repeating the process.

 

 

Omni-Blaster, Mk II

 

1 pip Ranged Killing Attack

* +3 Variable Advantage (+6)

* OAF Pistol (-1)

* Req. A Skill Roll vs. (Skill of your choice) (-½)

 

35 Active 14 Real

 

A versatile device, this weapon can be tuned in a near-infinite variety of ways, practically ensuring that no matter what kind of defense the target has, some damage will get through, even if it is very minor.

 

Game Notes: Properly set, 1 pip of BODY damage will always get through. Common Advantages to choose are:

 

AOE: 1 Hex (+½), Penetrating (+½), 0 END (+½), Continuous (+1),

Affects Desolid (+½), Indirect: Any (+¾), Personal Immunity (+¼), MegaScale (varies), No Range Modifier (+½), Sticky (+½), Uncontrolled (+½), Variable Special Effects (+½)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Omni-Blaster, Mk II

 

1 pip Ranged Killing Attack

* +3 Variable Advantage (+6)

* OAF Pistol (-1)

* Req. A Skill Roll vs. (Skill of your choice) (-½)

 

35 Active 14 Real

 

A versatile device, this weapon can be tuned in a near-infinite variety of ways, practically ensuring that no matter what kind of defense the target has, some damage will get through, even if it is very minor.

 

Game Notes: Properly set, 1 pip of BODY damage will always get through. Common Advantages to choose are:

 

AOE: 1 Hex (+½), Penetrating (+½), 0 END (+½), Continuous (+1),

Affects Desolid (+½), Indirect: Any (+¾), Personal Immunity (+¼), MegaScale (varies), No Range Modifier (+½), Sticky (+½), Uncontrolled (+½), Variable Special Effects (+½)

Since a 1 pip KA is like having a 1d6 that always rolls a 1, wouldn't that mean that Penetrating is useless? Using NND or AVLD Does BODY would work though. Or just upgrading it to a full 1d6 (for 105 Active 42 Real).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Nope. According to Steve, Penetrating on 1 pip RKA means that 1 pip gets through.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Since a 1 pip KA is like having a 1d6 that always rolls a 1' date=' wouldn't that mean that Penetrating is useless? Using NND or AVLD Does BODY would work though. Or just upgrading it to a full 1d6 (for 105 Active 42 Real).[/quote']

 

That's how I've always ruled it. I'd be curious to hear why Mr. Long doesn't think that's abusive. Of course I say the same thing about NND Flash (NND = Does No Body, hence no Flash damage gets done) and that's made it to print (in Millenium City).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Just in case anyone has any doubts:

 

Q: If you have a 1-point Killing Attack, how do you apply Penetrating to it?

 

A: For a 1-point KA, Penetrating means it does 1 Penetrating BODY automatically.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Nope. According to Steve' date=' Penetrating on 1 pip RKA means that 1 pip gets through.[/quote']

That's just wrong...

 

Then again, I've never agreed with all of Steve's rulings anyway...especially the ones that seem to defy the standard rules.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

That's how I've always ruled it. I'd be curious to hear why Mr. Long doesn't think that's abusive. Of course I say the same thing about NND Flash (NND = Does No Body' date=' hence no Flash damage gets done) and that's made it to print (in Millenium City).[/quote']

??? You mean putting Penetrating on an NND Flash? Or just putting NND on Flash?

 

Penetrating on any NND is a bit ridiculous. The defense of an NND is an absolute affect, so it'll block the penetrating damage too, and if course if the target lacks the defense, he'll take full damage anyway.

 

NND Flash would work just fine, Flash doesn't do BODY, so it doesn't lose any effect. Just because you count what the BODY would be for effect doesn't mean that the effect won't happen. The effect won't happen only if the effect is BODY damage.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Just NND on Flash, and I disagree -- I don't allow NND Entangles for the same reason. Since what matters is BODY and NND means no BODY... Of course if you like it, I'm not going to try and talk you out of it. This is my *opinion*, not my religion

[KA.]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Agent Chains:

Here is a fun one for when Viper shows up, after they have time to get annoyed with this guy.

Two agents hold their actions so that they can coordinate.

Agent One - Uses the 1-pip RKA Penetrating "Bubble Popper" attack from the front.

Agent Two - From the rear. Tosses in the Invisible Grenade.

1 or 2 d6 RKA, Full IPE, Area Effect One Hex, Time Delay 3 Segments.

 

Bubble Boy puts up his Force Wall again, but is unable to see the grenade, and it is already inside with him.

 

A couple of seconds later.

 

BOOM!

 

That ought to shake his confidence, especially until he figures out what is going on.

 

 

KA.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

Just NND on Flash' date=' and I disagree -- I don't allow NND Entangles for the same reason. Since what matters is BODY and NND means no BODY... Of course if you like it, I'm not going to try and talk you out of it. This is my *opinion*, not my religion [/quote']

Entangles don't even do damage. That'd be like putting NND on a Force Field or Change Environment. It wouldn't have any effect and would be worthless. In any case, when NND says the attack won't do BODY, it means it won't do BODY damage to the target. Flash doesn't do BODY damage, you just count the "BODY" on the dice to determing the effect.

 

All this is a bit moot for me, because I actually consider NND to be a Limitation for Flash (needing a reasonably common all or nothing defense is more limiting than needing a reasonably common defense that can only subtracts from the effect).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Penetrating vs. Force Field

 

I believe force walls are porous by default (they can't suffocate someone, theywon't hold water in or out, etc.). I asked Steve about an adder for non-porous, but he couldn't recall such a ruling.

 

Of course, this means that gas attacks (NND's normally) will pass right through them.

I agree they shouldn't be allowed to suffocate someone, but they should in general stop physical stubstances, including liquids and gasses. Of course, an NND can bypass a FW, if that's how it's defined, but if you turn a firehose on HamsterBall Boy, will it go through? What about an acid attack, liquid or gas, not an NND?

 

And even if you can't hold water in a Force Wall, it could be that the water only seeps out slowly, so the hamster ball could fill up faster than it empties out.