Who let the Id out?

[Reynard]

I was just reading the FAQ and came across this:

 

Q: Could a character buy Duplication with the Usable By Other or Usable As Attack Advantage, and if so, what would the effects be (and who’d control the Duplicate)?

 

A: A character could apply Usable On Others to Duplication with the GM’s permission — though given that one comes with a “caution sign†and the other with a “stop sign,†few GMs would grant that permission.

If the GM allows this, normal rules for who controls the granted/inflicted power would apply: if it’s Usable By Others, the grantee controls the use of the power; if it’s Usable As Attack, the grantor controls when it’s used and pays the END for it, etc.

The big question here then becomes: with Duplication Usable As Attack, does the attacker automatically control the actions of the Duplicate? The answer is: no, he does not. He controls when the target can Duplicate, and could force the Duplicate and original victim to rejoin if they were in contact. But otherwise, the Duplicate acts as an independent character with the same personality, abilities, etc., as the original victim. If the grantor wanted to maintain full control of the Duplicate, he’d need Linked Mind Control.

 

and it got me thinking.

 

Imagine a supervillain that has Duplicate,completely different, Usuable as Attack, who forces someones "dark side" to emerge as an actual physical entity. Load it up with all sorts of Psych Disads and Berserk, and you could have lots of fun.

 

But it raises some questions. How do you determine the point cost, sicne you might not know how many points the target has (say you create the duplicate as a 250 point monster, but use it on a 50 point normal)? Also, how does recombining work (probably when the END isn't being paid for anymore? what happens if it is bought as 0 END and Persistent?)

 

Just thinking.

 

Reynard

[Bengal]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

This would be a Mental Transform... probably Major

[Reynard]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

This would be a Mental Transform... probably Major

 

Well, the thing is that the real person is still standing there, dumbfounded as his dark inner self begins rampaging all over the place. What would be interesting, though, is to link a mental transform that adds a few Psych Disads like "Coward" and "Pacifist" to the target, because all their "inner strengh" is bound up in the Id Monster duplicate thingy.

 

Reynard

[Dust Raven]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

I wouldn't call something like this a Power. I'd call it a Plot Device, and such things don't cost point. The effects would be completely up to the collaboration of the GM and the affected Players.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

I wouldn't call something like this a Power. I'd call it a Plot Device' date=' and such things don't cost point. The effects would be completely up to the collaboration of the GM and the affected Players.[/quote']

That's mostly where I'd stand -- if it weren't for my Game Mechanic instinct to try and build everything

 

First off, with regards to the varying points -- just treat the points as a maximum, and apply a -1/4 limitation "Actual power of duplicate cannot exceed those of the person duplicated".

 

However, as I interprete it you'd also need the advantage that the Duplicate can differ from the original because you're talking about changing their personality.

 

As for recombining? That's a tricky one. Personally I'd say the original could make an EGO roll to force their "inner self" back into submission as part of the UAA restrictions -- quoting FREd pg 177, "In addition, there must be a reasonably common set of defenses which will cancel out the attack." I'd also rule that the character with the power itself "rejoins" the duplicates to himself/herself if desired.

 

0 END Persistent? I'd be *real* hesitant to allow it, but if so you've got a semi-permanent duplicate -- the exception being the UAA 'reasonably common' exception, whatever you make it.

[Diashan]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

Instead of duplication maybe do it as a summon. Only to create duplicate of a character, only to characters power level. Will have to do some research could make an intersting character. Maybe Ghostrider like confront your inner evil.

 

 

 

 

Diashan

[austenandrews]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

I did Duplication UAA in a game once. It made for a great twist, because the player didn't know she was playing a duplicate. So imagine her surprise when I killed the character. That wouldn't work for every player, obviously, but this one loved it. The scenario worked out great.

 

The "Id" construct certainly calls for the -1 version of No Conscious Control.

 

As for point cost, I don't see a problem. Just figure out what you want to change about the duplicate and write it into the definition. The end product is Base Character + Added Goodies. If that results in fewer points than you paid for, c'est la vie. And of course you'll have an upper limit. But this is such a Stop Sign construct that I would expect a lot of GM judgment calls, rather than nailing the whole concept in a string of Advantages and Limitations.

 

This would be a really fun power in a game. You could even let the player run the Id duplicate for awhile. Really cut loose and plumb the depths of the character's motivations, with the knowledge that since it's a duplicate & not the actual character, the repercussions will be greatly reduced.

 

-AA

[Reynard]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

Hmm... I think I might have made myself unclear. i am not thinking so much that Id-Man would attack Bob and Evil Bob would appear. I am thinking more that Id-Man would attack Bob and Monstrous Bob, who bears only a passing resemblance to Bob, would appear. Anybody Id-Man targetted would produce the same (stat wise) Id Monster. Simultaneously, Bob (or whoever) would suffer from a collection of Wussification disads, and the only way to get rid of them would be to recombine with Montrous Bob -- which would be... how?

 

Reynard

[cyst13]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

You guys have all assumed this power to be used strictly by villains or NPCs. You can't wave your hand and call it a plot device if it is a PC power. I think this power would be really interesting if it were an unconscious psionic ability of one of the PCs. As I'm thinking about it, this would be a mind-blowing concept for a campaign. Say you've got a hero group that spends a half-dozen or so games fighting twisted baddies who resemble important personalities in their home city (e.g. mayor, police chief, newscaster, etc) but in a warped way (think Bizarro/Superman). Eventually the PCs come to realize that it is one of their own members who is unconsciously causing these people's ids to manifest and rampage. Now what?

[KA.]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

You guys have all assumed this power to be used strictly by villains or NPCs. You can't wave your hand and call it a plot device if it is a PC power. I think this power would be really interesting if it were an unconscious psionic ability of one of the PCs. As I'm thinking about it' date=' this would be a mind-blowing concept for a campaign. Say you've got a hero group that spends a half-dozen or so games fighting twisted baddies who resemble important personalities in their home city (e.g. mayor, police chief, newscaster, etc) but in a warped way (think Bizarro/Superman). Eventually the PCs come to realize that it is one of their own members who is unconsciously causing these people's ids to manifest and rampage. Now what?[/quote']

 

This is a cool idea, but what you describe would be more of a plot device than an actual "PC power".

That does not mean that there is no reason to try to build it though.

 

 

Oh, as far as the Ego roll to re-merge. I think I would force it to be "face to face". You could not just make an Ego roll and the duplicate would disappear, because that would be too easy and random. I would rule that you had to subdue the duplicate and then do it, or, if you want to go Star Trek, you would have to convince the Duplicate to go along with it to save both lives.

 

KA.

[austenandrews]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

Hmm... I think I might have made myself unclear. i am not thinking so much that Id-Man would attack Bob and Evil Bob would appear. I am thinking more that Id-Man would attack Bob and Monstrous Bob, who bears only a passing resemblance to Bob, would appear. Anybody Id-Man targetted would produce the same (stat wise) Id Monster. Simultaneously, Bob (or whoever) would suffer from a collection of Wussification disads, and the only way to get rid of them would be to recombine with Montrous Bob -- which would be... how?

 

Reynard

Ah, that's different. Then I would consider Summon to get the Id Monster and Transform to weaken the original character. Come up with some arbitrary, dramatic ritual for the two to "recombine." Then buy the Summon so that it cancels when the ritual is complete, and buy the Transform with the ritual as its reversal condition.

 

As Steve pointed out, using Duplication for this effect would put the Id Monster in the player's hands. And anyway, if the monster is totally different from the original guy, then you're basically just using the Duplication power to crib the "recombining" mechanics. Better to do it manually.

 

-AA

[Reynard]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

Ah, that's different. Then I would consider Summon to get the Id Monster and Transform to weaken the original character. Come up with some arbitrary, dramatic ritual for the two to "recombine." Then buy the Summon so that it cancels when the ritual is complete, and buy the Transform with the ritual as its reversal condition.

 

As Steve pointed out, using Duplication for this effect would put the Id Monster in the player's hands. And anyway, if the monster is totally different from the original guy, then you're basically just using the Duplication power to crib the "recombining" mechanics. Better to do it manually.

 

-AA

 

Cool. That's what I started to think as I looked at it more. And for the record, I was thinking of this as a villain power but I still don't believe it is necessary to hand wave it: after all, half the fun of using HERO is figuring out how to do stuff within the rules and within a certain budget (so the villain is balanced for the PCs)

 

Reynard

[Dust Raven]

Re: Who let the Id out?

 

Oh, this is different!

 

I agree with AA about using Transform and Summon. A SFX for the Summon could even be that it wears similar clothings and has similar quirks (or even some of more prominent, applicable Psych Limits) as the target.

 

The Transform would be healed upon the banishment of the Id Monster, and the Id Monster would be banished upon a method predetermined by the GM, which the PCs will likely spend the adventure figuring out (and would be really cool if it required some sort of assertive action on the part of the affected character, but one that he'll still bring himself to do when the time comes).