Converting From Older Editions

[Lord Liaden]

With all the new people who have been drawn to HERO System since the Fifth Edition came out, it occurred to me that some of them might be interested in the copious amount of Hero Games material published before then, which is still floating around used game dealers, eBay and the like. One deterrent to them picking it up, though, may be the differences between editions of the system. Now the changes between 5E and 4E are not that major or difficult to figure out; and anyone who looks over the excellent summary of the changes from 4E to 5E created by fellow board member TheEmerged (found here) can easily pick up on them.

 

For pre-4E books, though, the system differences and the way they're described in writeups are far more substantial, and often confusing to newer HERO gamers. (Heck, after all these years even veterans can use a refresher now and then ). Before 5E was published, another of our boardmates, Chris Goodwin aka "archer", posted a very good summary of many of the salient differences in those earlier books to the Hero Games discussion boards. Looking over those notes, I see that virtually all of them are just as useful to people who are only familiar with 5E, so I thought it might be helpful to repost them here. (Chris has kindly given me his permission to do so.) Also, if anyone has any other questions or helpful hints about those early editions, this would probably be a reasonable place to post them.

 

I've attached archer's notes below as a document file, just as he originally posted them except for a very few minor additions by myself to clarify a few points.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Lord Liaden, you have inspired me to work on that document some more. I will post it when I am finished. It's going to be pretty much a total rewrite.

[Solomon]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Excellent! I look forward to Archer's rewrite. May I suggest adding some notes on the "phylosophy" of character building through HERO editions? Archer duly notes that there were less skills to chose from back then, but I feel this section might be expanded upon. Looking at pre-fifth edition characters, especially Champions ones, I usually feel that:

- Inordinate scores (30+) in DEX were not unheard of, and very high scores (25+) were somewhat more common than today. Combat skill levels were rarer.

- BODY, EGO, INT and PRE tended to be lower. Most non-mentalists had EGO 10.

- Defenses tended to be sligtly higher.

- Movement powers tended to be rarer and extra noncombat multipliers were rare.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Looking through some 3rd edition Enemies books (Enemies II, Enemies III, and Enemies: Villainy Unbound) I see the following:

 

* DEX/SPD: Nearly all of the DEX scores are in the 8-35 range, with most of those 18-28. SPDs are in the 4-6 range with a few 7's. (The aforementioned DEX 8 character was SPD 6!) They didn't seem to be based on concepts; there were energy projectors with 30/6 as much as martial artists with 23/5.

 

* BODY scores range from 6(!) to 35, with most in the 10-20 range.

 

* EGO is in the 5-20 range with most being 11-14 and a few in the 15-18 range. The occasional mentalist over 20 pops up but those seemed to be rare.

 

* INT scores range from 5-23, with most in the 10-18 range (and one 1 INT loser!).

 

* PRE scores are in the 10-30 range with most being from 15-25.

 

* Defenses: I'm seeing a lot of normal PD and ED in the 30-40 range with 10-20 resistant defenses on top of that.

 

* Movement scores are in the 6-43" range with most around 10-20" per phase; I'm seeing Flight and extra Running commonly. (Note that most characters in 3rd edition don't buy Flight noncombat multiples because the formula was different for figuring noncombat movement; the base noncombat multiple was equal to the points in Flight divided by 5. So with 15" of Flight you would have a NCx of 6 for a total of 75" noncombat.)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Here it is. It's reorganized. It's in HTML and zipped up so that I could attach it.

[Narthon]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

I really miss the old third edition density increase as an alternate to the current 4th/5th DI.

 

Since many of you probably don't have access to it, it is written as:

10 points per level base:

+5 STR, +5 Con, +1 Body (no figureds)

1" knockback resist

+3PD, +3ED (resistant)

 

I really like the fact that the PD and ED are resistant and I think this does a better job of modeling the body of metal type DI we see quite often. In my games, I think I will make both types avalible, and which one people take will depend on concept.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks for your time.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Very nice-looking document, Chris. I've already dumped my old .doc file in favor of the spiffy upgrade.

 

One small observation, though: the name you chose for the document, "A Look Back At 3rd Edition Champions," is a bit misleading, since you deal with elements of the other Hero games from before the system was integrated into 4E. That makes this work more broadly useful for people who aren't interested, or aren't just interested, in Champions.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

I really miss the old third edition density increase as an alternate to the current 4th/5th DI.

 

Since many of you probably don't have access to it, it is written as:

10 points per level base:

+5 STR, +5 Con, +1 Body (no figureds)

1" knockback resist

+3PD, +3ED (resistant)

 

I really like the fact that the PD and ED are resistant and I think this does a better job of modeling the body of metal type DI we see quite often. In my games, I think I will make both types avalible, and which one people take will depend on concept.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks for your time.

 

I can certainly see why you'd prefer it in that case, and you should definitely use what works for you. For my part I do think that the current version is a more adaptable base from which to start: being "denser" doesn't necessarily imply resistant Defenses, especially at lower levels, not to mention the other benefits. I think I'd prefer to just Link the extra benefits I would want to 5E DI, but of course YMMV.

 

Let's just see how this construct would work out math-wise, based on 5E precedents:

 

+5 STR, +5 CON, +1 BODY would be 17 points. They would all cost END as part of this Power, which is a -1/2 Lim, and "No Figured Characteristics" would be another -1/2, making this part of the construct cost 8 points.

 

1" Knockback Resistance, Costs END would be 1 point. +3 rPD and +3 rED, costing END (whether as Armor, Force Field or added Damage Resistance) would be 6 points. If you built the whole thing as a Compound Power it would cost 15 points. You might allow the KR and extra Defense to be Linked to the increased Characteristics, which would bring the total cost down to 13 points.

 

Hmm... it seems as though 10 points/level of "old" DI might be a bit cheap for what you get.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Very nice-looking document, Chris. I've already dumped my old .doc file in favor of the spiffy upgrade.

 

One small observation, though: the name you chose for the document, "A Look Back At 3rd Edition Champions," is a bit misleading, since you deal with elements of the other Hero games from before the system was integrated into 4E. That makes this work more broadly useful for people who aren't interested, or aren't just interested, in Champions.

 

Oops! You're right. There are at least a couple of other mistakes in it too. When I have time I'll fix them all.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

+5 STR, +5 CON, +1 BODY would be 17 points. They would all cost END as part of this Power, which is a -1/2 Lim, and "No Figured Characteristics" would be another -1/2, making this part of the construct cost 8 points.

 

1" Knockback Resistance, Costs END would be 1 point. +3 rPD and +3 rED, costing END (whether as Armor, Force Field or added Damage Resistance) would be 6 points. If you built the whole thing as a Compound Power it would cost 15 points. You might allow the KR and extra Defense to be Linked to the increased Characteristics, which would bring the total cost down to 13 points.

 

Hmm... it seems as though 10 points/level of "old" DI might be a bit cheap for what you get.

 

This is treading extremely close to something I've been thinking about for overhauling the Size Powers. All you'd need to add is a "2x Mass Per Level" Limitation and you're all set. It would do away with the need for Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase, as well as the Size stat for vehicles. Make it a -1/2 Limitation and you're down to 12 points per level.

[JmOz]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Here it is. It's reorganized. It's in HTML and zipped up so that I could attach it.

 

Hey Chris, the link is broken (file corrupt) any chance of you reposting it?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Does this one work any better?

[JmOz]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

nope, must be on my side

[GAZZA]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Let's just see how this construct would work out math-wise, based on 5E precedents:

 

+5 STR, +5 CON, +1 BODY would be 17 points. They would all cost END as part of this Power, which is a -1/2 Lim, and "No Figured Characteristics" would be another -1/2, making this part of the construct cost 8 points.

 

1" Knockback Resistance, Costs END would be 1 point. +3 rPD and +3 rED, costing END (whether as Armor, Force Field or added Damage Resistance) would be 6 points. If you built the whole thing as a Compound Power it would cost 15 points. You might allow the KR and extra Defense to be Linked to the increased Characteristics, which would bring the total cost down to 13 points.

 

Hmm... it seems as though 10 points/level of "old" DI might be a bit cheap for what you get.

 

Let's compare to 5th (and 4th) edition DI:

 

5 points STR, No Figured, Costs END*: 2.5 points

1 point KB Resistance, Costs END: 0.66 points

+1 PD and ED, Costs END: 1.33 points

 

4.5 points, interestingly enough (meaning there's a case to be made that 5th edition DI is too expensive - especially since one would think that there's some sort of limitation for weighing more).

 

*Though I'm not sure about this; using STR costs END anyway, so this only limits you on phases where you're not using your STR. I left that in since it was also part of your calculation for 3rd edition DI, but it looks questionable to me.

 

Another way to look at it would be to compare it to DI bought as 0 END. That way you ditch the END limitations and you're at 7.33 points for something that costs 7.5; any way you slice it, it looks like 4th/5th edition DI is an overpriced power. Perhaps some of that 3rd edition stuff should be added back in?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

JmOz, I put it up on my web page: http://www.afeather.net/~archer/hero3tohero4.html

[rjcurrie]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Chris, maybe I missed it but I don't think your document mentions one of the biggest changes between 3rd and 4th which is that the END Cost of Powers (and STR) was 1 per 5 Active Points.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

It's the second bullet point under Powers.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

It's the second bullet point under Powers.

 

Okay, then. Move along. Nothing to see here.

[ThatDarnCat]

Re: Converting From Older Editions

 

Let's compare to 5th (and 4th) edition DI:

 

5 points STR, No Figured, Costs END*: 2.5 points

 

*Though I'm not sure about this; using STR costs END anyway, so this only limits you on phases where you're not using your STR. I left that in since it was also part of your calculation for 3rd edition DI, but it looks questionable to me.

 

Normally you only pay End for your Str when you use it, but in this case you pay End for every phase it's active, whether you use it or not. On the phases that you actually use the extra Str (like attacking) you would pay the End cost again.

 

I've had a player do this for increased Str, he paid End for every phase his increased Str was 'turned on' and for using it.