Regeneration

[Arthur]

The way Regen is handled now has a few aspects that I don't care for:

 

1. Ordinarily, Healing can only be applied to one person once per day. To increase that one step on the Time Chart is a +1/4 Advantage. Why should Regen be an exception? There's no reason I've heard for this that rings true.

 

2. It's just plain Too Cheap. Regen 1 BODY per Turn for 7 points? It used to be 10 points in earlier editions. If anything, the transition from Silver Age to Iron Age sensibilities that most games have gone through should make Regen MORE valuable, not less! Not to mention the introduction of genres like Fantasy Hero.

 

3. On a related note, if I DO have a character concept with something like "Regen 1 BODY per hour", it's hard to stick to. The point savings are so small, it's all too easy to decide "OK, my character concept really calls for 1 per Turn". It's just a small change in concept, right?

 

4. Shouldn't there be a Limitation for "BODY Only"? Healing normally restores STUN and BODY. Not restoring 3 STUN is definitely worse than restoring 3 STUN. I'd call it a -1/2 Limitation.

 

SOLUTION: Remove the Time Chart exception! That resolves all the issues neatly in one swell foop. Optionally, add in point 4.

 

Some examples using the new rules:

 

Regeneration 1 BODY per Turn:

 

Healing 1d. Fixed Effect. Persistent 0 END (+1); Reset Time 1 Turn (+1.5); Extra Time 1 Turn (-1.25); Self Only (-0.5); BODY Only (-0.5). Active Cost: 35. Real Cost: 11.

 

 

Regeneration 1 BODY per 5 Minutes with Regrow Limbs Adder:

 

Healing 1d plus Limbs. Fixed Effect. Persistent 0 END (+1); Reset Time 5 min (+1); Extra Time 5 min (-2); Self Only (-0.5); BODY Only (-0.5). Active Cost: 45. Real Cost: 11.

 

 

Regeneration 1 BODY per hour:

 

Healing 1d. Fixed Effect. Persistent 0 END (+1); Reset Time 1 Hour (+0.5); Extra Time 1 Turn (-3); Self Only (-0.5); BODY Only (-0.5). Active Cost: 25. Real Cost: 5.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Regeneration

 

4. Shouldn't there be a Limitation for "BODY Only"? Healing normally restores STUN and BODY.

If you read the Power you'll see that Healing normally affects 1 thing. You can opt to make it "Simplified Healing" in which case it heals STUN on the Face and BODY by counting the BODY. However, thats an option and not the default behavior.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration

 

Actually, if you look closely, there is an advantage missing in Regeneration. 1d6 Standard Effect should do 3 character points, which is 1.5 BOD per turn. I believe if you work the math, it is a +1 advantage.

 

I interpret this to be "unlimited maximum" - +1.

 

This would be 4 steps up the time chart using that approach, so that's every 5 minutes. It needs to be +1 1/2 to be per turn if you use the time chart approach, which may bring the cost closer in line with your preferences.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration

 

I don't know the whys, but all I know is that Regen got 2 points cheaper and twice as much Active Points. Sure it used to cost 10 points per BODY/Turn, but that was 10 Active Points too. Granted, this only affects things if you want to put in in some kind of Framework or are playing with Active Point limits. Personally, it doesn't make any difference to me, but I like having the extra options using the 5th ed method.

[GamePhil]

Re: Regeneration

 

Actually, if you look closely, there is an advantage missing in Regeneration. 1d6 Standard Effect should do 3 character points, which is 1.5 BOD per turn. I believe if you work the math, it is a +1 advantage.

 

Actually, Healing is Instant, and should be made Constant before it can become Regeneration.

[GamePhil]

Re: Regeneration

 

If anything, the transition from Silver Age to Iron Age sensibilities that most games have gone through should make Regen MORE valuable, not less! Not to mention the introduction of genres like Fantasy Hero.

 

Actually, I don't agree that the games are Iron Age. They have a stronger continuity including character mortality, an aspect of the Iron Age, but the heroes are heroic and the villains are villainous, and there is a feeling that great things can be accomplished. Millenium City was rebuilt from the ground up because politicians, big business, and the people pulled together in a time of great need to extend the helping hand, and those first two would never have done so without ulterior motives in the Iron Age. Dark Champions may have more of that element, but that isn't out yet and is only a part of the line.

[McCoy]

Re: Regeneration

 

3. On a related note' date=' if I DO have a character concept with something like "Regen 1 BODY per hour", it's hard to stick to. The point savings are so small, it's all too easy to decide "OK, my character concept really calls for 1 per Turn". It's just a small change in concept, right?[/quote']

Did you try taking 24 charges instead of 0 END, and extra time?

[GamePhil]

Re: Regeneration

 

Did you try taking 24 charges instead of 0 END' date=' and extra time?[/quote']

 

Hey, that's good.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration

 

Actually' date=' Healing is Instant, and should be made Constant before it can become Regeneration. [/quote']

True, but the cost becomes prohibitive based on the net effect in that case. Steve's write-up for Regen is very clunky, and a pefect example that you can do anything with optional interpretations of the rules. It works though.

[Arthur]

Re: Regeneration

 

Actually, if you look closely, there is an advantage missing in Regeneration. 1d6 Standard Effect should do 3 character points, which is 1.5 BOD per turn. I believe if you work the math, it is a +1 advantage.

 

I followed you right up to "if you work the math...". Now, if Standard Effect is 1.5 BODY, but we call it 1 BODY, then that should be an additional Limitation. Sounds like a clear-cut -1/2 Limitation.

 

Adding in the "Constant" thing, and we are approaching Ludicrous Complexity.

 

I think we may be adding fuel to the "Regeneration should be a separate Power" argument. I still think that would be a good idea. I liked the Fuzion notion of bumping up the Time Increment for the regular REC of BODY per month. The only difficulty is in trying to finagle exactly 1 BODY per Turn. I think it should be 3 points per +1 increment, with Advantages for "Regrow Limbs" and "Resurrection"

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration

 

I really liked the 4th ed version, although it didn't help much in the /hour or /day department (always more efficient to spend the extra 2-5 point for /turn).

 

I suppose you could, alternatively and much more expnsively, create a new Power that just puts your REC for BODY at One Week, and the apply a +1/4 Advantage for each level on the Time Chart earlier you can recover your REC in BODY. Either than or apply it as a naked Advantage to your existing REC in some way.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Regeneration

 

Regen as listed requires.......

 

0 End (+1/2)

Persistent (+1/2)

Self Only (-1/2)

Extra Time : 1 turn (-1)

 

But the 2 that seem to be implied on top of this are....

 

heals body only, no Stun (-1/2)

no daily limit on pts granted (+1)

 

This would bring it right in line with the 10 pts per 1 regenrate, and makes logical sense.

[Snarf]

Re: Regeneration

 

On a somewhat related topic, I think the way Light is done as a form of images is just behind Regeneration in Hero's most unecessarily complex and counterintuitive official power builds. It's annoying to me how there are no particular rules that describe how it works, except in the FAQ. I'd probably make seperate powers for Regeneration and Light if I weren't using Hero Designer.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration

 

Regen as listed requires.......

 

0 End (+1/2)

Persistent (+1/2)

Self Only (-1/2)

Extra Time : 1 turn (-1)

 

But the 2 that seem to be implied on top of this are....

 

heals body only, no Stun (-1/2)

no daily limit on pts granted (+1)

 

This would bring it right in line with the 10 pts per 1 regenrate, and makes logical sense.

Healing doesn't automatically heal STUN and BODY. It only heals one thing (but simplifies healing is an option). The Regen is just Healing BODY. Using Standard Effect it should heal 1.5 per die, but only heals 1. In my opinion, the daily limit is removed along with that .5 per die for added balance.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration

 

On a somewhat related topic' date=' I think the way Light is done as a form of images is just behind Regeneration in Hero's most unecessarily complex and counterintuitive official power builds. It's annoying to me how there are no particular rules that describe how it works, except in the FAQ. I'd probably make seperate powers for Regeneration and Light if I weren't using Hero Designer.[/quote']

I think how 5th does light is better than in 4th. Light is just another form of Images, a very limited version of and is written up accordingly. Change Environment comes close, and they do overlap in some areas. You could actually use either (and for about the same cost) to produce darkness (not Darkness, but just a lack of natural lighting).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration

 

I followed you right up to "if you work the math...". Now' date=' if Standard Effect is 1.5 BODY, but we call it 1 BODY, then that should be an additional Limitation. Sounds like a clear-cut -1/2 Limitation.[/quote']

 

It's only -1/2 if it's the only limitation. That's why I said you have to work the math.

 

BTW, if you want to see truly powerful regen, slap on a +2 advantage to that Adjustment Power for "All Characteristics"...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration

 

Regen as listed requires.......

 

0 End (+1/2)

Persistent (+1/2)

Self Only (-1/2)

Extra Time : 1 turn (-1)

 

But the 2 that seem to be implied on top of this are....

 

heals body only, no Stun (-1/2)

no daily limit on pts granted (+1)

 

This would bring it right in line with the 10 pts per 1 regenrate, and makes logical sense.

 

OK, work with me here. The limitation "no Stun" doesn't exist - you don't get STUN from the power as drafted, as Dust Raven has already noted. So what we have is 2/3 of 1d6 of Heal, with Standard Effect (ie 2 pips on the die, which equals 1 BOD), so 2/3 x 10 points per die x 3 (1 + 0 END 1/2 + Persistent 1/2 + no limit 1) / 2.5 (1 + self only and Extra Turn) = 8 points per die.

 

I don't see this as being overly effective for its cost. A force field in its natual habitat (an EC) adds +4/+4 resistant defenses at 1/2 END. I probably wouldn't allow it in, say, a Fantasy game. In Supers, so you can recover BOD? How often have your super teams ever had a character down BOD for an extended period (ie more than the scenario when the damage was taken) anyway?

[i3ullseye]

Re: Regeneration

 

I think I see the confusion here.....

 

Regen in the book states it uses the standard effect rule, then states this gives 1 body per die. Now if you do body only, or if you do simplified for stun and body it comes out to about the same. I was working under the simplified hjealing idea, which would then be only 1 BODY regen for every 1 dice because Simplified Healing heals the normal body rolled on the die, whcih can be 0, 1 or 2. And with the standard rule, placing it at a roll of 3, it then maked each die of healing, bought with the standard effect, a 1 body affair.

 

You can save points approaching it the other way, but the general idea of the game is to pay the most expensive of 2 options if 2 options are available.

 

And 10 pts per point of regen just rolls off the tongue so much easier...... hehe....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration

 

Regen in the book states it uses the standard effect rule, then states this gives 1 body per die. Now if you do body only, or if you do simplified for stun and body it comes out to about the same. I was working under the simplified hjealing idea, which would then be only 1 BODY regen for every 1 dice because Simplified Healing heals the normal body rolled on the die, whcih can be 0, 1 or 2. And with the standard rule, placing it at a roll of 3, it then maked each die of healing, bought with the standard effect, a 1 body affair.

 

You can save points approaching it the other way, but the general idea of the game is to pay the most expensive of 2 options if 2 options are available.

 

Two EQUALLY VALID options. Regenerate cures BOD, so simplified healing isn't a valid option for the power in question.

 

Note that, to take the most expensive approach, a 1d6 Ego Attack should cost at least 13.75 points (5 pt EB, Based on ECV (+1); Invisible to Sight and Hearing +3/4). That's before we note that Based on ECV should be a +2 1/2 (AVLD +1 1/2; range Line of Sight +1/2, call Target ECV +1/2). That makes it 21.25 points per die.

 

And you munchkins are only paying 10

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Regeneration

 

1. Ordinarily, Healing can only be applied to one person once per day. To increase that one step on the Time Chart is a +1/4 Advantage. Why should Regen be an exception? There's no reason I've heard for this that rings true.

 

Not if you keep track of individual wounds. I make my players keep track of individual BODY wounds, so healing can be more effective. I'm nice like that.

[Arthur]

Re: Regeneration

 

Regen in the book states it uses the standard effect rule, then states this gives 1 body per die. Now if you do body only, or if you do simplified for stun and body it comes out to about the same. I was working under the simplified hjealing idea, which would then be only 1 BODY regen for every 1 dice because Simplified Healing heals the normal body rolled on the die, whcih can be 0, 1 or 2. And with the standard rule, placing it at a roll of 3, it then maked each die of healing, bought with the standard effect, a 1 body affair.

 

Doh! I knew I was missing something. This is what I get for doing things from my poor memory. Anyway, BODY Only should still be a Limitation.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Regeneration

 

"Two EQUALLY VALID options. Regenerate cures BOD, so simplified healing isn't a valid option for the power in question."

 

Actually, simplified healing does heal body also, thus it is valid. Both are trying to heal 1 pip of body per increment. Simplified healing is not a stun nly heal.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration

 

Doh! I knew I was missing something. This is what I get for doing things from my poor memory. Anyway' date=' BODY Only should still be a Limitation.[/quote']

 

If you're using simplified healing, I suppose. I consider simplified healing to be a hybrid power made of "real healing", so I prefer the Regen as "Heal BOD" to begin with. Giving that a limitation would be like allowing a limitation ofr a BODDrain that does no Stun, or an NND, No BOD.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration

 

"Two EQUALLY VALID options. Regenerate cures BOD, so simplified healing isn't a valid option for the power in question."

 

Actually, simplified healing does heal body also, thus it is valid. Both are trying to heal 1 pip of body per increment. Simplified healing is not a stun nly heal.

 

Equally valid is the key here. One could also take Healing, All characteristics (+2), BOD Only (-1), which would be valid, but not equally valid.

 

Every power can theoretically be built with EDM - to a dimension where I have just used this power. It's technically valid, and it would be more expensive in many cases, but it's not an EQUALLY valid way to build, say, Life Support: Breathe Underwater.

 

If one accepts the mopst expensive way possible is always correct, then that means a lot of discussions like "You can do it that way, bit this way would be more efficient" goes out the window. Simpolistically:

 

(a) An EC is always cheaper than buying all the powers without one. EC's violate the mega rule.

 

( A 12d6 0 END EB costs 90 points. A 12d6 EB with an END battery of 6xSPD and a REC equal to its END is effectively 0 END. So, if I have a 3 speed, that battery would cost 2 (for 18 END) and + 18 (for 18 REC) = 80, and is an illegal construct under the mega rule. But if I have a 5 SPD, I should be required to pay 3 (for 30 END) + 30 (for 30 REC), because that's more expensive than 0 END.

 

© See Ego Attack example above.

 

There's lots of examples where the mega rule can be demonstrated as contradictory to the rules as written.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Regeneration

 

If you add the option to regrow limbs, which regen normally should, you end up with...

 

Healing 1 BODY, Can Heal Limbs, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (30 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) Real cost: 11

 

So yeah, it never completely resolves to an actual 10 per BODY as it used to. Has any supplement yet added an official advantage for "not limited by die total" to compare and see how it turns out?