Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

[Maelstrom]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

Moon Knight? DC

Cap? C

Iron Fist and Power Man? I'd say Champs -- almost no deaths in the comic, and they both act pretty Silver Age about it. Orson Randall . . . he's DC.

[bubba smith]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

Moon Knight? DC

Cap? C

Iron Fist and Power Man? I'd say Champs -- almost no deaths in the comic, and they both act pretty Silver Age about it. Orson Randall . . . he's DC.

orPULP HERO

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

Marvel Comics Ultimate Spiderman swings back and forth between Champions and Dark Champions...

 

IMOHO...

 

 

QM

[Shaft]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

I think one way of looking at it is to clasify characters as being Dark Champions, Street Level Supers or Champions and then see which title can accomodate them. Champions is the most accomodating genre, which is what makes so much of this classification a murky affair. Dark Champions and Street Level Supers are less accomodating. As a general rule, Dark Champions types have no powers, though they can have superskills, and can step into Street Level Supers and Champions effortlessly.

 

Street Level Supers can also step into Champions genres without breaking them, but "Champions only" characters can't leave that genre- they pull the genre with them when they cross over. If you had to "Ven Diagram" it, Dark Champions as a genre is within Street Level Supers, and Street Level Supers is within Champions.

 

Some examples:

 

Batman: Detective Comics and the two recent movies starring Christian Bale are Dark Champions. Batman, Scarecrow, Rhas Al Ghul, the Joker and Two-Face all don't have powers, just superskills and gadgets. However, when Killer Croc, Mr Freeze, Poison Ivy or ManBat shows up, the title has a street level supers feel to it. These types of villains tend to show up in the "Batman" titles as opposed to the Detective stories (where he tracks down serial killers, fights organized crime and CSIs his way through crime scenes). Batman: The Animated Series is DC: The Animated Series. His presence in Justice League (comic or Animated) is undoubtedbly Champions. The ongoing Batman-Superman comics title is Champions.

 

Captain America: He is a Dark Champions character running around in a Street Level Supers title which is SHIELD-heavy and tends to focus on espionage, military and fighting opponents like Hydra and the Serpent Society, who tend to be low powered in the metability level, is Street Level Supers. His past has him working with the Invaders (a flame throwing android and a super strong Atlantean), but there are plenty of store in which he and Bucky stomp Nazis using nthing but chutzpah and superskills. In the Avengers, he is still a Dark Champion even though his peers are Champions, as is the case with his appearance in the Ultimates.

 

Daredevil tends to be a street level Supers genre simply because he has powers himself. His most popular opponents are Dark Champion "superskill" villains, like the Kingpin (who has about a 25 STR- technically superhuman, though it is affordable even with a characteristic maxima limitation) and Bullseye, but mutants such as Sabretooth appear often enough that powers are a regular reality. Daredevil hates getting pulled into Champions as he'd rather stay in Hell's Kitchen, but when it happens, he can survive.

 

The Punisher is THE Dark Champion: Especially in the self contained Max series that actually exists in a separate reality from mainstream Marvel where the powered people never appear (except for Nick Fury, who is admitely a Dark Champion as well when his SHIELD toys are kept realistic). When Frank Castle gets his own stories, his opponents tend to be unpowered opponents, though some super skilled opponents such as Baracuda or the Russian tend to pop up. When Punisher guest stars in Spiderman or Daredevil, he is still a Dark Champion in a Street level game. And when he shows up in full blown Champions such as the recent Civil War, it gets very messy, but he is still a Dark Champion.

 

Thor, Iron Man and Starfox appearing in a Punisher title would be messy and "break" the feel of title, while the Punisher's appearance in the Avengers probably would not (though it might make for a lousy story). Likewise Superman appearing in the grittier Batman titles changes the feel of the stories, even though they pair up all the time in "Champions" stories. Even more extreme, John Mclane or Martin Riggs could guest star in a Champions game, and not change the overall "rules" of the setting- they would just be some comic relief and in fact the Champions genre is full of unpowered heroes that act as supporting characters, while Superman's appearance in one of those movies would break the story. Frank Castle or Captain America pairing up with James Bond, MacGyver or the A-Team might not even cause a "blip" in the reality rules (though the point disparity is worth noting), but street level super types like Iron Fist, Wolverine or Spiderman certainly would.

[Shaft]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

Street Level Supers can also step into Champions genres without breaking them, but "Champions only" characters can't leave that genre- they pull the genre with them when they cross over. If you had to "Ven Diagram" it, Dark Champions as a genre is within Street Level Supers, and Street Level Supers is within Champions.

 

If you want to break it down even further, you can slip Supernatural/Horror in between Dark Champions and Street Level Supers. Vampires, werewolves, mummies, ghosts, X-Files style psychic phenomena, low level chi powers, minor spellcasters and the like add an element that extends beyond the Superskills of the Dark Champions genre, but is more mainstream than the Street Level Supers genre. The Ghostbusters, Remo Williams and Buffy clearly use different reality rules than Dark Champion action heroes, but aren't as "super" as actual powered heroes and villains, but that Supernatural element makes for a pretty cool origin for a lot of Street level Supers (such as Moon Knight, Jack Russell, Blade).

[Shaft]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

As a general rule' date=' Dark Champions types have no powers, though they can have superskills, and can step into Street Level Supers and Champions effortlessly. [/quote']

 

Of course, one thing that breaks the rule is an otherwise unpowered person who use use super tech like Iron Man or Green Lantern. A judgement call has to be made as to when the technology an otherwise unpowered character uses is a plausible gadget (such as a utility belt) or if the technology is a special effect for otherwise impossible powers. If the tech is too fantastic, it makes the character using it a Champions character. This includes some magic devices, which is just technology with different effects.

 

Sometimes the line can be pretty close: Night Owl's hovervehicle is essentially a helicopter with different special effects, while the Fantasticar "feels" too space-agey.

[bubba smith]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

i got a copy of dark champions last saturday and was suprised to see CAPTAIN AMERICA listed as a dark champs type i take it mr. long reffered to the post 9-11 stories where cap was reactivted by the military.[btw good work mr long]

[bubba smith]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

i just saw the movie wanted would that be regular or dark champions

[Greywind]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

Captain America flip-flops. At times he's strictly DC. Mostly he's supers level, running with the Avengers.

[bubba smith]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

i recently added a dark champions style movie to my collection...max payne

[Pól Ruadh]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

I don't see a hard and fast dividing line.

I tend to run a Champions game, but I have always found Dark Champions to be a tremendously useful resource as it allows me to mix up the tones and themes of adventures a lot.

It's neat to be able to go from fighting aliens to biffing the mob, and it's nice to remind the capes 'n' tights crowd that there's a world full of normal people who have problems of their own which don't involve giant radioactive dinosaurs.

For example, issues of Spider-Man where our hero stops kicking the hell out of Doc Ock or hanging out with the Avengers to help deal with a gang war between rival organized crime groups.

 

Alternately, you can have a gun-toting vigilante who normally only sees superheroes from a distance as they fly overhead interrupt a weapons deal only to discover the weapons in question are armoured battlesuits, or alien slime molds, or killer robots. This is neat in the the hero has to use his head to defeat an opponent which he can't just take out by filling it fulla holes.

For example, the issue of Batman where he interrupts a weapons buy only to end up having to take on Amazo, the android with all the powers of the Justice League.

 

With a character like Batman, I can't just say yeah or nay on where he stands. Because one of the strengths of Batman is his versatility. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love stories where Batman's all dark and urban vigilante, but I also love the stories where he's pulling the ol' James Bond gag and doing the international man of mystery thing - jet-setting and dealing with global terrorism and intrigue, and I love the stories where he teams up with his league buddies, Green Arrow, The Flash or the Atom to deal with an arch-villain's diabolical scheme to (dun dun dah) TAKE OVER THE WOOOOORLD!!!!

 

So yeah, when it comes down to it, I gotta go with my man, Zippy the Pinhead. The question isn't, "Is this Champions or Dark Champions?" But "Are we having fun yet?"

And if the answer is Hell Yeah, then great.

[bubba smith]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

here's one for is it fantasy hero or post acalyptic hero

thundarr the barbarian,soory if someone already asked this

[Pól Ruadh]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

here's one for is it fantasy hero or post acalyptic hero

thundarr the barbarian,soory if someone already asked this

 

Both. It's also 'Saturday Morning Cartoon Hero'.

One of the nice things about universal systems is the ability to take bits and pieces from different genres.

 

"Dangit, Thundarr, you got fantasy hero in my post-apocalyptic hero!"

"Dangit, Ookla, you got post-apocalyptic hero in my fantasy hero!"

 

Thundarr the Barbarian. Two great tastes that go well together.

[bubba smith]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

in which catagory champions or dark champs would a game based on the movie PUSH about an agency of telekinetiec fit? me i'd say dark champions

[Bolon]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

I sort of divide DC and Champions as to how the characters play out. Public Identity is Champions. You can also look at how much of the time is spent fighting versus talking and skills. Champions have skills so they can get to the fight or know about it. DC use skills to investigate and deal with people, then take action. DC requires more usage and plotlines involving disadvantages and NPCs. Champion NPCs are villains or secondary assistants as in Directors of agencies, damsels/dudes in distress and to add colour. Do your characters really have lives other than fighting villains or not? That is a bigger aspect. Look at Superman. He does something to show him as Clark Kent, danger arrives, he is Superman, fights it, returns to Clark Kent to "hang out" with friends. Does the alter identity do anything to further the story? Batman finds out about others as Bruce Wayne or through his corporate friends, deals with Commissioner Gordon as an equal almost, interrogates others and uses his mysterious reputation to create fear. The fight is a minor part of his storylines. Batman (JLA) is the scientist or genius who uses something to equal things out, or figures out something essential to get the rest to the fight and really doesn't do much investigation. Even when Batman (JLA) investigates, he wanders off, gets the info and returns to inform the rest of the fight. Punisher fighting a group of mobsters for the full adventure is just really low powered Champions but the same Punisher who investigates on how the mob is hurting the neighbourhood and gets involved to save a kid from joining the bad guys, that is more DC. Just my humble opinion.

[bubba smith]

Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

 

here's a slightly different take i just recieved my copy of theMONSTER FORCE animated serieswhould this be champions dark champions or urban fantasy hero?