CrosshairCollie Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 I was just kind of wondering where a 'street-level supers' game would be considered in the 'spectrum' of HERO gaming. For my main character to use for an example, I'll use Spider-Man. Now, admittedly, Spider-Man hops around from cosmic to city-level quite a bit, but most of the time, he's strictly New York material and the threats he takes on aren't world-beating affairs (I suppose Cloak and Dagger enter at this level, too). So, as far as 'plot-level' goes, he seems Dark Champions. However, two things seem to separate him from the Dark Champions mold: 1. Super-powers. He and a lot of his opposition have them, though they're not 'cosmic' level stuff (Spidey lifts VWs; the Hulk lifts mountains. Dagger's light-blasts stun people, Iron Man's repulsors crush titanium). We could maybe add Power Man and Iron Fist in there, too ... and Daredevil, of course. 2. The lack of killing. Spidey and Cloak and Dagger (last I knew, at least ... stuff changes) don't kill people, which kind of takes some of the 'Dark' out of it (the 4E Dark Champs seemed to lean heavily towards Punisher-style gaming of skilled-normals-with-hardware and fairly high body-counts). Will this kind of 'street-level' game be considered Dark Champions, or just a low-powered Regular Champions game? I know it's kind of a stupid, poorly-phrased question ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? No, that's a perfectly valid question, and phrased with one of the very examples I use in the book -- Spider-Man (though I primarily refer to his very early career). What you're describing is low-level Champions, not Dark Champions. It's what I discuss in the section of DC that talks about mixing genres -- in this case, DC and Champions. There are three or four ways to mix the two, and one of them is "street-level superheroes": characters like the very early Spider-Man and Daredevil who have superhuman abilities, but use them mostly (if not exclusively) to fight street crime and similarly low-powered superhuman criminals. Depending on how you characterize things and set up your game, this might also qualify as the "Dark Champions: The Animated Series" subgenre of Dark Champions, though the prevalence of superpowers tends to weigh against that. DC:TAS characters tend not to be superpowered, though their enemies sometimes have weird powers or slightly fantastical technology. Now, obviously, despite all of this, obviously a lot of what you'll find in Dark Champions is readily applicable to, and useful in, a low-level Champions campaign. For example, modern-day guns and gear writeups are perfectly acceptable for just about any Champions game, regardless of how powerful the superhumans are. In the midst of the pointless (and often misinformed) quibbling about the title and contents of the book, I think that particular -- and very important -- fact has often been overlooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? My inclination would be that Spider-man, at least, would be Champions. Not so much for the powers as the fact that he's high profile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? What you're describing is low-level Champions' date=' not Dark Champions.[/quote'] So.... Daredevil is standard Champions, but the Punisher would be Dark Champions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? Daredevil is standard Champions, but the Punisher would be Dark Champions? That'd be how I'd see it, yes. I also see Batman as DC not C. Minds reasonable and unreasonable are of course free to differ. I could certainly see someone running a game where all the characters are low-level superhumans like Daredevil, with powers that are generally "personal" and non-flashy, and taking as much (if not more) inspiration and resource material from Dark Champions as from Champions. As long as people have fun with their games, I don't care what they call 'em or how they create 'em. I just have to establish some sort of dividing line for purposes of organizing the various product lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? I'd actually peg most Daredevil portrayals as more like DC than C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? The Marvel Knights line is how I look at Dark Champions, at least in 4th edition. This would include some Spiderman, Daredevil, punisher, Luke Cage. I would also include the Batlines from DC (Batman, Nightwing, Birds of Prey, etc) Now this new book is kind of up in the air as from the sounds of it it will be more towards a modern game than anything to do with super heroes (think Leathal Weapon movies, some comics like punisher, etc), this is where the debate on the name comes from as the 4th edition book was definatly about masks (Not neseasarily supers...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? I agree to some extent with Jm ... though I think it's also dependent on who the comic's creative team is I think, on some level, even the Ultimates could be seen in a DC lens ... though I'd clearly make them Champions To an odd extent ... I'd almost see USA's The Dead Zone as DC also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? Where would Captian America fall on the Champions/Dark Champions scale? It has always been said that he is "peak human" by Marvel. Meaning that he has no super-human powers, he is simply peak human as far as his physical abilities are concerned (DEX, STR, CON, etc.). He is smart but not a exceptionally so. He is a extremely skilled hand-to-hand combatant but this is just a factor of constant training and lots of experience. Thus far he sounds like a Dark Champions character. However, that shield of his is a more of a Champions gadget and his aging has been halted, or at least greatly slowed by the super soildier serum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? Agan it depends on what cap you are talking about. The Shield is not an issue, while it has some nice abilities, they are not that exceptional to be a super power (Though some of his skills WITH the shield should qualify) Also his aging has not been halted, it was stoped for about 5 decades while he was in a ice cube Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? And Batman acting with the Justice League is deffinately not DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? what catagory would IRON FIST fall into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrm Ouroboros Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? Power Man and Iron Fist would generally be DC; Captain America, full-on Champions. Batman varies depending on the comic, but if you take away the JLA stuff, he's a DC sort of guy, but he really does walk the line; far too many of his recurring villains are people who are powered up in one way or another; Ivy and Croc come to mind. Look at it this way: little/no innate power, mostly normal criminals, some gadgets, 'peak human': DC. Otherwise, Champions. Batman really walks the line, so you pays your money and takes your chances. Also, in general, you have to look not just at 'what they are', but what they DO. Captain America doesn't break up gangs, throw himself into the middle of a Mob shipment, or track down a serial killer. Iron Fist doesn't fight HYDRA, go to the Savage Land, or involve himself with SHIELD. (Well, any more than he absolutely has to.) DC isn't just about what powers (or lack thereof) you have, it's about what 'level' of involvement with the 'super' world you have. Again, Spider-Man may break up muggings and stop bank robberies, but he's more frequently involved with shutting down the Rhino, or the Green Goblin, or some other powersuit/crazyman/whatever. Ergo, Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? thanks this is an interesting topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vann the Red Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? I delineate between the two somewhat differently. To me, if the character is principally concerned with 'regular' crime, it's DC. That is to say, if the hero is motivated to improve the lives of the average Joe rather than dealing with super-villains. My other measuring stick would be the 'grittiness' of the setting. Power level or costuming of the villains has little to do with it. So, to review some of the characters mentioned, I'd say DC characters are Power Man, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Batman (JLA aside), Spidey, Cloak & Dagger. Spidey and Batman definitely cross the lines at times, though. Captain America was even DC at times when I first started reading it as he had an established neighborhood in New York and many of the stories revolved around helping his neighbors. Just my $0.02, VtR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrm Ouroboros Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? We're agreeing far too often, Vann. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vann the Red Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? Heh. Love your siggy, too. ;-) VtR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? i just thought of something would max guvera from dark angel be a dark champion or dr adam kanes MUTANT X team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? or for that matter any character from theNBC series HEROES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? zohan dvir aka theZOHAN four color or dark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted June 15, 2008 Report Share Posted June 15, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? i just thought of a team that would fit mainstream dark champions, the tas version AND regular champions the teenage mutant ninja turtles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? or for that matter any character from theNBC series HEROES I'd call the Heros from the show Street level Heros, while they have super powers, and interact with supers, they operate on a "street" level...though I'd have had more ordinary crime come up...the chars on the show are very dogged in Not being superheros........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psybolt Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? I'd call the Heros from the show Street level Heros' date=' while they have super powers, and interact with supers, they operate on a "street" level...though I'd have had more ordinary crime come up...the chars on the show are very dogged in Not being superheros........[/quote'] I would disagree. The characters from Heroes would be Champions, not dark champions. Not much "steet level" about Sylar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? as if sylar wasn't ENOUGH trouble for the HEROES as is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted July 26, 2008 Report Share Posted July 26, 2008 Re: Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions? oddly enough one super hero with solar powers would make a good DARK champion i refer to internation security agent ray randal aka BIRDMAN : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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