The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

[Trebuchet]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

I'm not surprised by anything you would say Treb. I'll reread it once again.

My goodness, aren't we suddenly all defensive now? You know I will speak my mind when I see what I perceive as wrong. I'm frankly surprised (and disappointed) you would feel it necessary to respond with hostility to honest criticism, Doug.

 

I guess I don't know you quite as well as I thought I did.

[Agent X]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

My goodness' date=' aren't we suddenly all defensive now? You know I will speak my mind when I see what I perceive as wrong. I'm frankly surprised (and disappointed) you would feel it necessary to respond with hostility to honest criticism, Doug.[/quote']I wasn't defensive. I literally am not surprised by anything you say. And I did reread his posts again. Take a gande down the post.

 

I guess I don't know you quite as well as I thought I did.

You've said this to me before.

 

Here are all of Crackerjacker's posts with commentary from me. My commentary is in bold.

 

First Post: The Minutemen, disgraced superhuman champions and former enforcers of the Reagan administration, who have been in hiding for more than a decade, are out to commit suicide, taking the world with them in a nuclear hellfire. They beleive that as former retainers of the late President, that this is the only way they can redeem themselves as soldiers and true americans. This last line doesn't suggest any particular reason why they believe that so it doesn't contradict later statements.

 

In order to accomplish their apocalyptic honor killing, the Minutemen must gain the access codes to the Juggernaut, a nuclear weapons command center that only President Reagan and his closest staff members knew of, that has long since become defunct. This is the reason behind the kidnappings of former Reagan presidential staff members, in hopes that one of them has the codes. The secret weapon, the Juggernaut was a Reagan (and I would assume Bush) secret that has essentially been deactivated but apparently the Minutemen can activate it again if they can get hold of the old access codes.

 

Should the PC's actively investigate the kidnappings they will likely catch the Killing Joke in the act, but he'll use his powerfull projected hallucinations (in a GM fiat move) to escape. He's not really meant to leave any sort of evidence they can follow, being an veteran commando bent on the success of his mission. Instead he's just meant to give them a face to place behind the kidnappings. Research or inquiry of him should fairly easily find news articles, photos, and dossiers concerning The Joke, a member of the Minutemen, Reagan's personal supergroup during his long presidency. Like the rest of the Minutemen he was suddenly and mysteriously deactivated from duty officially and never heard from again.This last line goes along with the turning rogue business. Even more thorough investigation should find that the Joke has been living off the grid and the FBI, CIA, and Secret Service have a secret order for his immediate arrest and detention should he ever be found.

 

Research into the Minutemen will inevitably lead clues about their old meeting places and methods of operations, which will have them paranoid. The PC's at this point have become a problem that needs to be dealt with firsthand. At the moment they are least expecting it, in their private lives and secret identities one or more of the PC's will be attacked without warning and without mercy by one of the lesser members of the Minutemen accompanied by a squad of American Glory shock troopers.He never explains much about the American Glory. It appears there is more to the story than he has offered. Would another post describing the American Glory be considered back-pedalling or retconning? This situation is meant to be dangerous, and hopefully the other PC's will find a way to get there and aid their comrade in time. If that is impossible, have a simmilar but larger wave of American Glory troopers (mooks) attack them on their way.

 

If the one PC is knocked out and kidnapped, and/or if they or the other PC's detain and question a American Glory trooper they should be able to gather the location of the next meeting to be held by the Minutemen. At this point the PC's should be visited by a suitable investigator type NPC hero who can explain this all better. The background story is that the Minutemen went rouge and tried to seize America's nuclear weapons for immediate use against the rest of the world, thinking it was in their President's wishes.None of this contradicts his later statements. Instead they were apprehended by a international supergroup and while the whole thing was kept under wraps it traumatized the Minutemen so much that despite each of their escapes (except one casaulty) they never made contact with Reagan again. Only his recent death has caued them to reunite for this one last mission, the last hurrah.This is likely why he later is adamant about keeping the Reagan plot thread. Most imporantly the NPC should reveal that they are almost certain that the Minutemen now have the former staff member with the access codes to the Juggernaut, and that it is imperitive to intercept this information and stop this meeting.

 

So the PC's, accompanied by an NPC hero, will ambush/stake out a meeting in a suitably abandoned part of your campaign's city. Here for the first time all the members of the Minutemen, and a small legion of American Glory troopers, will be present together. They also have one kidnapped politician (and maybe one the PC's depending on how the earlier situation went) in tow. The other politicians are talked about as being kept elsewhere as insurance. A cool set of problems for a team: beat up bad guys, save two sets of hostages, prevent doomsday device.

 

No matter wether the PC's just listen to the meeting or wether they crash it, they will either hear the location of the Juggernaut and follow, hoping to stop the Minutemen there, or will get in a massive brawl and the leader of the Minutemen, the telekinetic brick Justice, will escape and fly off to the discussed location with the access codes. If the PC's just jumped in and brawled then at some point the remainign American Glories will surrender/flee, and all the remaining Minutemen will either be incapacitated or flee as far as they can, abandoning their misison. The NPC hero will take care of getting the knocked out Minutemen/glories arrested and retreiving the kidnapped politicians, sending the PC's to stop the Minutemen from launching the nukes.

 

The location of the Juggernaut to be overherd or followed to can be underground, under the ocean, or in space; either under, near, or above the hero's city, which is why the Minutemen were meeting there. The Juggernaut is an impenetrable fortress, but Justice has left all the doors open behind him, now just in a mad rush to activate the nukes. This should be a tense situation in which every second matters to the PC's.

 

When the PC's finally confront Justice in the control they might try to talk him down, or just get in all out brawl. Even if the second is the case the combat should be interspersed with the veritable manifesto of Justice and his reasoning and motivation for launching the nukes. He truly beleives himself to be a patriot, and is also one of the most powerful superhumans on earth, this shouldnt be a run of the mill brawl. Justice will not just try to win the fight, his only goal is the launch the nukes. If he can do that at some point during the combat, he will. After that he will give himself up, certain, listless, and releived in the completion of his mission. He will just give up. Now it is up to the PC's to do the impossible, to stop the apocalypse.

 

The rest of the situation shouldnt be beyond the capabilities of you, the GM. Wether missiles are intercepted, the Juggernaut main computer hacked into and shut down, or whatever, the PC's should be able to prevent or at least avert the nuclear missile launch. After this wether the public becomes aware and the PC's are lauded, or wether it is all kept under wraps is up to you as well.

 

 

for reference, the Minutemen are:

 

Justice, the leader and square jawed t/k flying brick

The (Killing) Joke, a psychic hallucination projecting commando In his very first post he remarks on the instability of two of the four characters. He has not yet described the Hood.

US Law, a regenerating psycotic captain america type

Nightwatcher, a batman type that has transmutation powers, often during the environment into other materials rather than transmuting his foes directly.

 

The American Glory troopers shold be guntoting thugs, weak powersuits, or even American-commando ninjas, whatever kind of mooks you need.

 

Second Post: 45 reads, no comments? No reason to see an invitation for a debate

 

Third Post: That would violate the whole idea of the plot. The Minutemen are perhaps my favorite among the villain groups Iv created, they were Ronald Reagan's enforcer supergroup of conservative, nationalistic, and in some cases outright violent/racist/delluded superhumans, that together were worldbeaters.Sounds like he's not Reagan's biggest fan but it doesn't provide any contradiction of his later posts.

 

In my own setting it's public knowledge that they went mad and tried to take/destroy all the world's nuclear weapons sometime during Reagan's second term, it was a global crisis. Since this wouldnt fit in so easily to everyone's campaign I altered it for this adventure.Here, he explains the difference between his campaign and the first post.

 

In my universe most of the Minutemen escaped capture after their defeat, Justice flying off into space and the others going into hiding. After Reagan's death they reunite in order to complete their final mission, a sort of last hurrah for patriotism, going out with a bang. Because even when they went mad with power, and even in exile, they felt like they were serving President Reagan. Notice the linkage here. Notice that he states that they "think" they are serving President Reagan - still no contradiction with later posts.Thats the core idea behind them. Its what makes it so cool and interesting in my eyes, and not just another terrorist supervillain group.

 

And the Juggernaut was Reagan's paranoid insurance policy in case of nuclear war. His contingency plan.paranoid probably set some people off.

 

Fourth Post: I can understand that it's bassically something that to feelr ight you would have to have the certain events to of occured in your universe, and there should be other events leading up to this. It's like a feature-film or two hour long special episodes of the JLA cartoon. So in that sense I am thankful for comments.

 

On the other comments however...

 

I'm sorry I thought to use a president (who was a controversial one mind you, but yeah, a beloved one) who was already the patron of a supergroup that went rouge in my universe, Im sorry that I used his death in a creative way for something that sounded exciting and wasnt at all in bad taste. Oh wait...Im not. As far political rant...I'm not of the age where I remember Ronald Reagan. I know some things about him, so I'm not just uncharacteristically doing things, but listen to this... the idea of Reagan having showy, superpowerfull supers (as opposed to more lowkey and well...sane ones) seemed to fit perfectly. As I understand he was all about boasting, showing everyone else in the world that America was boss, and ect.something else that probably set some people off In fact I'v had the concept of the Minutemen liked very much by a lot of people. And now, just because Reagan died a week ago, an interesting plot idea for my universe that I wanted to alter so I could share it with others, is suddenly some sort of political rant disguised as an adventure? I dont worship the ground Reagan walked on but I certainly have no particular political feelings against the guy. Sad that he felt he had to say this.

 

Bottom line is I dont feel like I have anything to answer for, and the flaming or threadcrapping here is not my own, but others. I'm glad that the people that actually read it had opinions, and for the most part that leads me to beleive that even after people are'nt being too stupid in the "Honor" of somebody's recent death, they still wont be able to use so easily in their own universes.

 

But I'll tell you this- it would lose all purpose, originality, and uniqueness if you just had Eurostar or somebody like that try to activate the Juggernaut. It just wouldnt work.I believe he feels this way because the motivation for the Minutemen was the death of Reagan.

 

Fifth Post: "Hmm. Sorry, I can't use this. My problem is a combination of it being too dark for the tastes of most of my gaming group and simply establishing elements in a campaign world I'd find too difficult to take seriously. It's too big a rock with too many ripples to integrate." -Skrull

 

This is a useful response, and I appreciate it. I even appreciate Kirby's original one, even though I'm not going to use it. The others... are not good examples of how to respond. If you have only something like that to say just dont say anything at all.

 

Sixth Post: It appears that I am not the one who has overly strong political beleifs one way or the other. That's what appears to be the case from my seat as well.

 

And the idea is that the Minutemen went mad with powerThis doesn't contradict anything from later posts, and in some ways tried to "pull an authority", which united the whole world, Soviet Union and USA against them. And I'm not saying that in my setting Reagan wanted a nuclear hellfire...the Minutemen are Cold Warrior fanatics. Theyre the equivalent of Jack Chick or Al Quaida, but to American cold war nationalist policy, not Christianity or Islam.

 

Seventh Post: That is the one thing Im trying to say. It's not a partisan hatchet job. Its just as plausible as any supers story, and there is nothing more "politically motivated" about Reagan having a secret nuclear base and recruiting superhumans he knew were unstable than saying that the American government in the 40's trusted a former Nazi scientist to test chemical agents on our soldiers (Captain America, anyone?). My point being, that stories dealing with elements of governments, good or bad, becoming the threat, are a regular supers trope. This adventure has nothing to do with my political beleifs, as I'm a teenager who couldnt give a rat's ass about what kind of president Reagan was besides trying to have a somewhat accurate impression of him for a fictional idea.I wouldn't argue his portrayal of Reagan is accurate but it is a fictional story AND there is no way to know what Reagan would think about a world with superbeings.

 

Eighth Post: That's exactly what I was trying to convey Whamme. I'm just not exactly a clear speaker (or typer in this case)

 

Ninth Post: Reagan has to be linked, and you couldnt change the plot.Again, I think this has to do with the death of Reagan as the impetus. But the idea is that the Minutemen were picked by Reagan because they were the most susceptible to suggestion out of America's most powerful superhumans.Nothing in this contradicts past statements. The Minutemen could be ultraconservative, racist, psychotics picked by Reagan for their suggestibility AND they could have gone mad with power. They all underwent severe psionic and just old fashion conditioning to the point where they would never betray the president and become his assassin. However this all did not help their mental stability, so when the Utopian (actually the Nazi supergenius Meister-Verstander in deep cover) planted the seed of the idea in the leader and most political of any of them, Justice, it didnt take much to convince the rest of them to join in the plot to capture and destroy the nuclear devices of the world. The Hood did it out of nationalism and irrational hatred, The Killing Joke did it for his sociopathic kicks, and Nightwatcher did it because he was ordered to, and in his personality it was so ingrained that he didnt want to disobey an order from Justice. And US Law did it bececause he was a violent psychopath AND a nationalist. He sure has gone into a lot of detail if this is a retcon.

 

These guys were worldbeaters, and it took a whole lot of cooperation between the USA and USSR to stop them. That international superteam that he was talking aboutIt ended the life of the Hood, and the Utopian wasnt a part of it, simply slipping into another one of his cover identities. When Justice flew to into space the crisis was over, and the authorities did there best but could never find The Joke or Nightwatcher, and US Law was impossible to find as they did kill him, but he regenerated and escaped.

 

Justice had been intercepting radio transmissions, and came down from orbit and instituted a secret meeting with the remaining Minutemen, all of them slightly less powerful than they were back in the day, but still extremely powerful supers (just not worldbeaters anymore).

 

Being the ultimate patriot and American soldier, Justice (who is kind of a delluded Superman) beleived that now that Reagan is dead they all have to fall on their swords. They should of died before their master did, as retainers are supposed to (using samurai code for inspiration in this bit, I am). Maybe none of them but the near-alien in his insanity US Law and the larger than life Justice would go through with pushing the button, but Nightwatcher and the Joke were both whacked out enough to be part of the plot. The plot, that is, to end their lives and complete their mission of preventing nuclear war, by causing a nuclear holocaust of their own.

 

Maybe I didnt make this all clear enough the first time, but still you'd have to really be not paying attention to think I was saying that Reagan wanted to cause a nuclear holocaust.I don't see the obvious retcon. Of course, there is a lot to read through.

[Agent X]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

What happened? I was harangued for my deceptive posts so I put all of Crackerjacker's posts together and my line of reasoning.. and no response.

[Wildcat]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

Wheeew... I just read all of that today.

 

OK 1st off. Agent X: Well done rebuttle there. While I'm a very staunch Regan Fan, I served in the USMC under him, and I will admit I have a VERY high opinon of him. I think you defended you position very well, and maintained your composure. I too think tha CJ was miss-representing our former Pres. I do not however think this is due to any political leaning one way or the other, as was stated by CJ himself he's a teenager, and I'm sure that his future life experiances will help him to fomulate his political leaning (if he ever gets one) But for now he's just going on what he's learned. To be honest I don't see alot of factual information about Pres Regan out there unless your of the ilk that will ferett it out and devoure it Like I may be.

Now that I've established my position on Regan, let me say this. His Adventure was just fine the Secret Doomsday Location, with it's own arsenel of Nukes

 

**Dang need to Go... Will finish this whne I get home**

[Agent X]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

Wheeew... I just read all of that today.

 

OK 1st off. Agent X: Well done rebuttle there. While I'm a very staunch Regan Fan, I served in the USMC under him, and I will admit I have a VERY high opinon of him. I think you defended you position very well, and maintained your composure. I too think tha CJ was miss-representing our former Pres. I do not however think this is due to any political leaning one way or the other, as was stated by CJ himself he's a teenager, and I'm sure that his future life experiances will help him to fomulate his political leaning (if he ever gets one) But for now he's just going on what he's learned. To be honest I don't see alot of factual information about Pres Regan out there unless your of the ilk that will ferett it out and devoure it Like I may be.

Now that I've established my position on Regan, let me say this. His Adventure was just fine the Secret Doomsday Location, with it's own arsenel of Nukes

 

**Dang need to Go... Will finish this whne I get home**

I think someone could be Pro-Reagan and change the way the story is conveyed and still not have a problem with it.

[Wildcat]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

Dang it Agent X you didn't let me finish, Flipping Traffic

 

Anyway where was I?... Oh yeah...

 

Now that I've established my position on Regan, let me say this. His Adventure was just fine the Secret Doomsday Location, with it's own arsenal of Nukes is SO perfectly plausible given the political climate of the era. I would however have to side with others that the portrayal of Regan was a bit inaccurate, and did make him out to be a Crazed Warmonger, and with the nation still mourning his loss I can see how some might have become inflamed with CJ use of him in a fictional medium.

 

OK On to Chuckg:

Had I been in your shoes for this little (OK LONG) debate, I probably would have become upset too. Not only am I (as stated before) a Strong Fan of Regan, I am the biggest Debater on the planet... and minutia is where I thrive. (Probably one of the reasons I DON'T post all that often) You too had valid point, but in the End... it's a game, and both you and Agent X LOVE this game why let it get to you as bad as it did. Please take a step back (as I often have to do) and look at this again. Even if CJ Retconed so what... Even if he made it seem as if he had the best written Adventure of all time, and didn't want to change a drop of it, so what?

I for one don't like the understanding of Pres Regan he has, he's admitted that he's not 'of the age where I remember Ronald Reagan' And that what he does know (In my Opinion) is only base on what he's learned either though the Media or some other source which (one again only my opinion) may be a bit slanted.

 

So in closing I'm going to take elements of his Adventure (Very well put developed I think) take what I want, change other aspects & ditch the rest. I'd like to think that he hasn't been chased away, and that everyone here who got a bit hot under the collar can cool off, and get back to making these boards fun for everyone... no matter HOW MANY post we may have.

[Agent X]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

Dang it Agent X you didn't let me finish, Flipping Traffic

 

Anyway where was I?... Oh yeah...

 

Now that I've established my position on Regan, let me say this. His Adventure was just fine the Secret Doomsday Location, with it's own arsenal of Nukes is SO perfectly plausible given the political climate of the era. I would however have to side with others that the portrayal of Regan was a bit inaccurate, and did make him out to be a Crazed Warmonger, and with the nation still mourning his loss I can see how some might have become inflamed with CJ use of him in a fictional medium.

 

OK On to Chuckg:

Had I been in your shoes for this little (OK LONG) debate, I probably would have become upset too. Not only am I (as stated before) a Strong Fan of Regan, I am the biggest Debater on the planet... and minutia is where I thrive. (Probably one of the reasons I DON'T post all that often) You too had valid point, but in the End... it's a game, and both you and Agent X LOVE this game why let it get to you as bad as it did. Please take a step back (as I often have to do) and look at this again. Even if CJ Retconed so what... Even if he made it seem as if he had the best written Adventure of all time, and didn't want to change a drop of it, so what?

I for one don't like the understanding of Pres Regan he has, he's admitted that he's not 'of the age where I remember Ronald Reagan' And that what he does know (In my Opinion) is only base on what he's learned either though the Media or some other source which (one again only my opinion) may be a bit slanted.

 

So in closing I'm going to take elements of his Adventure (Very well put developed I think) take what I want, change other aspects & ditch the rest. I'd like to think that he hasn't been chased away, and that everyone here who got a bit hot under the collar can cool off, and get back to making these boards fun for everyone... no matter HOW MANY post we may have.

Yes, I hope he wasn't chased away as well.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

in short:

 

we're getting all worked up over a Fictional Secnario using Fictional Ideas in a Fictional Setting.

 

and we're going to get mad at the guy for not following real life?

 

It's called Poetic Liscense.

[Mentor]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

Our campaign world is very four color and mostly created in the image of our political preferences, which definitely tend to the Conservative. I doubt very much that everyone on these boards would be comfortable running scenarios based around our very absolute morality based universe.

 

As a big fan of Ronald Reagan, I thought Crackerjack had a pretty interesting and perversely dark concept going for a plot line. It would never work in our campaign and I think the basis for the concept is built around pure fantasy. I, too personally disagree with the worldview being presented here, but it's a game, guys. I feel Crackerjack needs a little slack cut here.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

I feel Crackerjack needs a little slack cut here.

Agreed.

[Crackerjacker]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

Been gone for a while on vacation, and I'm really glad to see that things have simmered down. I certainly didnt mean to offend anyone, originally at least, but I do get to be a bit of a hothead in a conflict.

 

And just for the record, because the setting the adventure comes from is my baby:

 

The Utopian/Meister-Verstand's act was not mind control or even hypnotic suggestion, he just gave a clever plan that Justice and the rest wouldnt of been able to concoct on their own, and gave Justice the push he needed to get the idea for their original going mad thing. Meister-Verstand is perhaps the worst and most powerfull villain in my universe and is in a lot of ways the perfect human, the most intelligent man on the planet and at least at the time of the Minutemen, a perfect physical specimen. Thematically, he's the Ozymandius analogy in the Minutemen story, though Meister-Verstand transcends beyond that and existed before that line was drawn. The Utopian was just such a minor detail that I originally intended to leave it out of the adventure, but it has always been part of my universe since the original Minutemen idea (check the Mutants and Masterminds forum and my 2.0 thread if you are interested).

 

Generally the idea is that the government knew the Minutemen were unstable, and used that for control, but the fact that Utopian (who was considered stable, just vain and arrogant enough to be made loyal by authority and money, or so they thought) was actually a inhumanly brilliant Nazi villain was the X factor that allowed them to be pushed over the edge, the one thing their handlers didnt foresee. In fact the main reason that the government wanted Utopian in the Minutemen team was to be the brains to their psychotic brawn and they thought he'd have a stabling effect. Someone as smart as Meister-Verstand can put on a different personality like that better than an Oscar award winning actor.

 

I hope this doesnt cause anymore problems, I just wanted to elaborate a little about my setting, is all.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

OK, so first off, you're saying that there was no sinister mentalist...

 

Hmmm. Is this a retcon of a retcon, or what? Probably not, as the scenario details are too involved for a spur-of-the-moment explanation.

 

So I was wrong for asserting the stupidity of the mentalist retcon -- as it never actually existed -- and Agent X was also wrong for so staunchly defending said mentalist retcon -- as it never actually existed.

 

*LOL* Hello, irony.

 

 

Now, moving back to critiquing this latest revelation...

 

... ummm, sorry, no, still don't like it -- because it really doesn't give the Minutemen's original employer (Reagan & co) credit, does it? First they deliberately pick a dumb bunch of already unstable nuts *glares at Agent X*, and then the guy they trust to be political officer for the group is actually one of that planet's greatest supervillain masterminds? This is as silly as the Red Skull putting on a mask and getting picked to be Secretary of Defense, and yes, I know, Marvel actually did that, which is why I used it as the example. Mainstream comics companies ain't immune to silly ideas either, as well we know.

 

My own style is that I assume that the actors involved in any given scenario have only a finite supply of stupid pills. If the pill bottle runs dry before I'm finished setting up my plot, and I still need more doses of convenient plot-induced stupidity to make the scenario work as written, then I consider that to be a sign from the gaming gods that I need a new plot.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

Argh, stupid double-post!

 

*kicks server*

[Agent X]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

OK, so first off, you're saying that there was no sinister mentalist...

 

Hmmm. Is this a retcon of a retcon, or what? Probably not, as the scenario details are too involved for a spur-of-the-moment explanation.

 

So I was wrong for asserting the stupidity of the mentalist retcon -- as it never actually existed -- and Agent X was also wrong for so staunchly defending said mentalist retcon -- as it never actually existed.

 

*LOL* Hello, irony.

 

 

Now, moving back to critiquing this latest revelation...

 

... ummm, sorry, no, still don't like it -- because it really doesn't give the Minutemen's original employer (Reagan & co) credit, does it? First they deliberately pick a dumb bunch of already unstable nuts *glares at Agent X*, and then the guy they trust to be political officer for the group is actually one of that planet's greatest supervillain masterminds? This is as silly as the Red Skull putting on a mask and getting picked to be Secretary of Defense, and yes, I know, Marvel actually did that, which is why I used it as the example. Mainstream comics companies ain't immune to silly ideas either, as well we know.

 

My own style is that I assume that the actors involved in any given scenario have only a finite supply of stupid pills. If the pill bottle runs dry before I'm finished setting up my plot, and I still need more doses of convenient plot-induced stupidity to make the scenario work as written, then I consider that to be a sign from the gaming gods that I need a new plot.

I'm not going to go back and reread the entire thread but, if you will notice, the posts from the past two pages of mine never brought up mental powers for the Utopian. More assumptions.

 

Infiltration through Deep Cover by Criminal Masterminds is too silly to use in a Champions Campaign?

 

I don't think you're winning any friends by the way you are responding to Crackerjacker...

 

or by trying to bait me - "First they deliberately pick a dumb bunch of already unstable nuts *glares at Agent X*, and then..."

 

but hey, if it makes you happy.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

> Infiltration through Deep Cover by Criminal Masterminds is too silly to use in

> a Champions Campaign?

 

The world's supposedly greatest supervillain mastermind spending that many years of his life for that little return? Yes, I do think that's too silly.

 

If the guy's supposed to be Ozymandias... ummm, we know durn well how much Ozymandias could get done in 6-8 years of hard work, and it was a helluva lot more than the subversion of one superteam for one plot that failed anyway.

 

Talk about a massive under-achiever. Yes, that's silly. It's as silly as using a howitzer to kill flies, and for the same reason.

 

> I don't think you're winning any friends by the way you are responding to

> Crackerjacker...

 

Agent X, you are the last person on the face of the planet qualified to give me etiquette advice, and you only annoy me further every time you try.

 

> or by trying to bait me - "First they deliberately pick a dumb bunch of

> already unstable nuts *glares at Agent X*

 

You spent two days implying that I was every kind of idiot for daring to say that originally, CJ's plot involved being people recruited already nuts because they were nuts... and then, when he finally posts to say that I was right on that point, you expect me *not* to glare? Get real. The more you gripe about my table manners, the more I know you're just trying to distract people from your own lousy cooking.

 

Edit -- in case you're congenitally incapable of taking a hint, stop dragging my alleged personal qualities or lack thereof into every discussion we have. You ought to know by now that it does absolutely not a gods-damned productive thing, but instead just leads to more wasted time. Sheesh. How many times do you have to stick your finger on the hot stove before the message gets through?

 

Debate the issue or don't debate at all, but quit talking about *me*. Fine. You don't like me. I already know, thank you, repeats are not necessary.

[Agent X]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

> Infiltration through Deep Cover by Criminal Masterminds is too silly to use in

> a Champions Campaign?

 

The world's supposedly greatest supervillain mastermind spending that many years of his life for that little return? Yes, I do think that's too silly.

 

If the guy's supposed to be Ozymandias... ummm, we know durn well how much Ozymandias could get done in 6-8 years of hard work, and it was a helluva lot more than the subversion of one superteam for one plot that failed anyway.

 

Talk about a massive under-achiever. Yes, that's silly. It's as silly as using a howitzer to kill flies, and for the same reason.

 

> I don't think you're winning any friends by the way you are responding to

> Crackerjacker...

 

Agent X, you are the last person on the face of the planet qualified to give me etiquette advice, and you only annoy me further every time you try.

 

> or by trying to bait me - "First they deliberately pick a dumb bunch of

> already unstable nuts *glares at Agent X*

 

You spent two days implying that I was every kind of idiot for daring to say that originally, CJ's plot involved being people recruited already nuts because they were nuts... and then, when he finally posts to say that I was right on that point, you expect me *not* to glare? Get real. The more you gripe about my table manners, the more I know you're just trying to distract people from your own lousy cooking.

 

Edit -- in case you're congenitally incapable of taking a hint, stop dragging my alleged personal qualities or lack thereof into every discussion we have. You ought to know by now that it does absolutely not a gods-damned productive thing, but instead just leads to more wasted time. Sheesh. How many times do you have to stick your finger on the hot stove before the message gets through?

 

Debate the issue or don't debate at all, but quit talking about *me*. Fine. You don't like me. I already know, thank you, repeats are not necessary.

Assumption #1: Why are you assuming that in Crackerjacker's campaign that is all the German Mastermind was accomplishing while in Deep Cover?

 

Assumption #2: I wasn't implying you were an idiot. You are inferring that because you are making a big assumption, again.

 

I didn't bring up your personal qualities. I have stated something to the effect that I believe you overreached in your analysis of his posts and conveyed your assumptions in a rude manner.

 

You know, I finally did collect all of his posts together and place them in view for everyone to read sequentially. I've asked you and the others who were are sure that there are inconsistencies to point them out... and you haven't. I believe that your argument boils down to the idea that you knew "what he really meant" and that just isn't very compelling, at least for me.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

> Assumption #1: Why are you assuming that in Crackerjacker's campaign

> that is all the German Mastermind was accomplishing while in Deep Cover?

 

Because being on active duty w/ the official government black ops superteam is a full-time job? And if you take too many days off, people might notice?

 

Remember, he wasn't just on the team, he was supposedly *leading* the team -- or at least, being their 'control' officer. For him to have a career as an active supervillainous mastermind elsewhere would be as logistically absurd as Cyclops leading a double life as Victor von Doom without the X-Men ever noticing.

 

> Assumption #2: I wasn't implying you were an idiot.

 

Agent X, in prior threads, you've *called* me an idiot to my face. I /know/ what your opinion is of me -- abysmally low -- and pretending otherwise only insults my intelligence further.

 

[snip]

> I didn't bring up your personal qualities.

 

My alleged politeness or lack thereof is not a personal quality? My alleged abrasiveness or lack thereof is not a personal quality? An alleged habit of always jumping to conclusions is not a personal quality? Quit pretending.

 

You think I suck. I /know/ you think I suck. Previously, you've /told/ me that you think I suck. And you know what? I don't care. So any attempts of yours to tell me this again are, purely and smiply, a completely waste of bandwidth.

 

So quit it, already.

 

[snip]

> You know, I finally did collect all of his posts together and place them in

> view for everyone to read sequentially.

 

Yes, and you didn't say a damn thing while doing it that you hadn't already alleged, and that we hadn't already answered. So we didn't bother repeating the second verse same as the first.

 

Oh, and BTW, since we turned out to *both* be wrong interpreting WTF he'd said what with this latest 'no mentalist, just mastermind' revelation, why are you beating the dead horse?

[Agent X]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

> Assumption #1: Why are you assuming that in Crackerjacker's campaign

> that is all the German Mastermind was accomplishing while in Deep Cover?

 

Because being on active duty w/ the official government black ops superteam is a full-time job? And if you take too many days off, people might notice?

 

Remember, he wasn't just on the team, he was supposedly *leading* the team -- or at least, being their 'control' officer. For him to have a career as an active supervillainous mastermind elsewhere would be as logistically absurd as Cyclops leading a double life as Victor von Doom without the X-Men ever noticing.

 

> Assumption #2: I wasn't implying you were an idiot.

 

Agent X, in prior threads, you've *called* me an idiot to my face. I /know/ what your opinion is of me -- abysmally low -- and pretending otherwise only insults my intelligence further.

 

[snip]

> I didn't bring up your personal qualities.

 

My alleged politeness or lack thereof is not a personal quality? My alleged abrasiveness or lack thereof is not a personal quality? An alleged habit of always jumping to conclusions is not a personal quality? Quit pretending.

 

You think I suck. I /know/ you think I suck. Previously, you've /told/ me that you think I suck. And you know what? I don't care. So any attempts of yours to tell me this again are, purely and smiply, a completely waste of bandwidth.

 

So quit it, already.

 

[snip]

> You know, I finally did collect all of his posts together and place them in

> view for everyone to read sequentially.

 

Yes, and you didn't say a damn thing while doing it that you hadn't already alleged, and that we hadn't already answered. So we didn't bother repeating the second verse same as the first.

 

Oh, and BTW, since we turned out to *both* be wrong interpreting WTF he'd said what with this latest 'no mentalist, just mastermind' revelation, why are you beating the dead horse?

1. Maybe there is some dead time for a Black OPs team of that caliber in a fictional world?

 

2. One of us is trying to be civil and one of us remembers what really happened. I will remind you that I didn't call you an idiot. You said I did and I said that you construed my statement to mean what you wanted and it devolved from there. From what I can tell, if I disagree with you, that means I'm insulting you, which, if we turn that around, blows your defense for not only not being civil but for you to disagree with anyone, unless there are special rules just for you.

 

3. I hope other readers take the time to read that post. It did address the issue and your past responses are not an adequate defense of your argument that his posts contradicted one another. I believe your statement to be an evasion or you are too sure of your position to reflect upon his posts. You can wave your hand if you like but it won't make the truth about his posts go away. I would like you to do something you haven't done. Take the time to take two or more of his statements and show how they contradict one another while keeping them in context. In other words, I'd like to see you put your money where your mouth is without me being able to point out some statement he made that you omitted that explains your "apparent contradiction" away.

 

4. I don't remember calling him a mentalist and I don't remember thinking he was one. I tried to interpret his posts literally and not fill in any information that I didn't know without qualifying my assumptions.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

> 1. Maybe there is some dead time for a Black OPs team of that caliber in a

> fictional world?

 

I used the X-Men example for a reason. They have 'dead time' too, remember? But do they have so much of it that Cyclops could have another costumed identity entirely, and one that's a world-conquering villain, without them ever suspecting? Only if they all had the brains of spongecake.

 

When you are potentially on-call 24-and-7 -- which, as a de facto super-military, these guys would be -- leading any kind of double life is hard. Leading a double life as a fully operational "A-list' supervillain is, well, you'd need Longshot's luck to keep it from being caught out sooner or later.

 

Hell, just having a part-time job while going to school is enough to guarantee that at least one time in four years, we're going to have a schedule conflict. Being Ozymandias while at the same time pretending to be Captain America? Bet me.

 

re: your point #2 -- You know, for a guy who claims that he doesn't make it personal, you are doing nothing but.

 

What part of I don't care did you fail to grasp? They were all one-syllable words. It's not that damned hard.

 

Whether or not you think I'm civil, whether or not I have your approval of my behavior, matters less to me than virtually anything else that I can think of. Every word you utter on this topic is wasted breath. I am not going to change my posting style no matter what you say. Maybe because of something that somebody else says, but not you -- because while I might respect their opinions and evaluations, I have long since lost any respect for yours.

 

Contrary to your claims, I'm not very "evasive". If I don't like somebody, or if I think somebody's full of it, believe you me -- they are told.

 

So play your holier-than-thou games with someone else, quote forger.

 

> 3. I hope other readers take the time to read that post. It did address the

> issue and your past responses are not an adequate defense of your

> argument that his posts contradicted one another.

 

[snip]

> I believe your statement to be an evasion

 

This from the guy who outright lied -- oh, excuse me, paraphrased -- evidence into existence to back up his claims.

 

Chutzpah, you don't lack.

 

> or you are too sure of your position to reflect upon his posts. You can

> wave your hand if you like but it won't make the truth about his posts go

> away.

 

*points up*

 

"So I was wrong for asserting the stupidity of the mentalist retcon -- as it never actually existed..."

 

No points for claiming that I'm dodging, evading, or trying to prop up an unsure position, Agent X -- the instant that CJ posted *genuine* proof (as opposed to your made-up crap) that I was wrong, I admitted it. I don't need you to keep me straight, I can do that on my own. You're the one needed watchdogging.

 

You are not smarter than anyone. You are not better than anyone. You are not in any moral or intellectual position to be lecturing anyone on either proper behavior or proper thinking. And every time you try, I think you look like a pompous [bleep].

 

So off the high horse, poindexter. The issue of mentalist vs. non-mentalist was settled an hour ago, while you so busy warming up to your major-league pontificating here that you weren't noticing. Now we're discussing the issue of how plausible it is for a world-conquering supervillain of this guy's cailber to spend so much time pretending to punch a time clock for the US government.

 

> I don't remember calling him a mentalist and I don't remember thinking he

> was one.

 

You did remember to hedge your words very carefully, I'll grant you that much.

[Agent X]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

> 1. Maybe there is some dead time for a Black OPs team of that caliber in a

> fictional world?

 

I used the X-Men example for a reason. They have 'dead time' too, remember? But do they have so much of it that Cyclops could have another costumed identity entirely, and one that's a world-conquering villain, without them ever suspecting? Only if they all had the brains of spongecake.

 

When you are potentially on-call 24-and-7 -- which, as a de facto super-military, these guys would be -- leading any kind of double life is hard. Leading a double life as a fully operational "A-list' supervillain is, well, you'd need Longshot's luck to keep it from being caught out sooner or later.

 

Hell, just having a part-time job while going to school is enough to guarantee that at least one time in four years, we're going to have a schedule conflict. Being Ozymandias while at the same time pretending to be Captain America? Bet me.

Maybe he has an organization getting other things done. Maybe he has some of his agents infiltrated into government positions as well. We don't know. That's why I don't buy your assumption that he (a)wouldn't be able to get much done, or (b)would be wasting his time.

 

re: your point #2 -- You know, for a guy who claims that he doesn't make it personal, you are doing nothing but.

 

What part of I don't care did you fail to grasp? They were all one-syllable words. It's not that damned hard.

 

Whether or not you think I'm civil, whether or not I have your approval of my behavior, matters less to me than virtually anything else that I can think of. Every word you utter on this topic is wasted breath. I am not going to change my posting style no matter what you say. Maybe because of something that somebody else says, but not you -- because while I might respect their opinions and evaluations, I have long since lost any respect for yours.

 

Contrary to your claims, I'm not very "evasive". If I don't like somebody, or if I think somebody's full of it, believe you me -- they are told.

 

So play your holier-than-thou games with someone else, quote forger.

Oh, I know you aren't evasive about telling someone how you really feel. I'm talking about your posted response that you had already essentially 'proven your case' [notice the marks meant to show that I'm paraphrasing, thus I'm not misquoting you as I'm getting to the meaning of your statement with different words. It's not deceptive, that's what the marks are for.] You didn't 'prove your case' in the sense of responding to the challenges to your assumptions. You did respond to the posts but not to any specifics, except by taking a snippet of his posts without framing them in context and then assuming the snippet could mean only one thing, what you decided it meant. As to me making it personal, I'm not. I'm simply debating the point about how to treat others who are posting their ideas. If you think this is some sort of "beef" with you, you're wrong. I debated the point with Kirby as well and he's pretty new.

 

> 3. I hope other readers take the time to read that post. It did address the

> issue and your past responses are not an adequate defense of your

> argument that his posts contradicted one another.

 

[snip]

> I believe your statement to be an evasion

 

This from the guy who outright lied -- oh, excuse me, paraphrased -- evidence into existence to back up his claims.

Paraphrasing isn't deceptive. I assumed the reader would understand what those marks meant. If they didn't, they could simply look it up or ask.

 

Chutzpah, you don't lack.

 

> or you are too sure of your position to reflect upon his posts. You can

> wave your hand if you like but it won't make the truth about his posts go

> away.

 

*points up*

 

"So I was wrong for asserting the stupidity of the mentalist retcon -- as it never actually existed..."

 

No points for claiming that I'm dodging, evading, or trying to prop up an unsure position, Agent X -- the instant that CJ posted *genuine* proof (as opposed to your made-up crap) that I was wrong, I admitted it. I don't need you to keep me straight, I can do that on my own. You're the one needed watchdogging.

You are confusing my statement with some other tangent. I'm talking about your assumption that there were Retcons going on that you could prove by showing contradictions, contradictions that to this point have not been provided or have been shown not to be contradictory, unless you take them out of context or pretend there is only one possible conclusion to come to by the given statement.

 

You are not smarter than anyone. You are not better than anyone. You are not in any moral or intellectual position to be lecturing anyone on either proper behavior or proper thinking. And every time you try' date=' I think you look like a pompous [bleep'].

I'm responding to these posts because I want guys like Crackerjacker to feel free to post their ideas and they should expect a friendly discourse about what they've come up with. I'm not trying to prove my moral or intellectual superiority. I'm trying to make sure I have as much access as possible to the ideas that other gamers have had. Are you worried about my moral and intellectual position?

 

So off the high horse' date=' poindexter. The issue of mentalist vs. non-mentalist was settled an hour ago, while you so busy warming up to your major-league pontificating here that you weren't noticing. Now we're discussing the issue of how plausible it is for a world-conquering supervillain of this guy's cailber to spend so much time pretending to punch a time clock for the US government.[/quote']I was merely clarifying that your assumption that I though Utopian was a mentalist was just that, an assumption.

 

> I don't remember calling him a mentalist and I don't remember thinking he

> was one.

 

You did remember to hedge your words very carefully, I'll grant you that much.

Another assumption. Think about it. Why would I have hedged my remark as to whether or not he was a mentalist? It was a non-issue to me. All that mattered is that Utopian was the last straw in the corruption of the team. The point was to illustrate that he was distancing Reagan from the actual corruption of the team where some seemed to be accusing him of placing some sort of culpability on Reagan for that.

[Agent X]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

I'm going to stop this before it gets more out of hand but I reserve the right to post again should I feel a challenge to some statement needs to be made concerning Crackerjacker's posts.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

> Maybe he has an organization getting other things done.

 

... and where does he find time to run it, supervise it, check up on it, and make sure that it hasn't decided to go into business for itself during his chronic absences? This is the villain business, after all. If the Evil Minions have too much time to themselves, they get ideas.

 

> Maybe he has some of his agents infiltrated into government positions as well.

 

Didn't this team report directly to President Reagan? Did he infiltrate /there/, too? Are his mad infiltration skillz so l33t that even POTUS himself couldn't notice that his right-hand metahuman man had a different day job? Hell, if he's already got that all set up, WTF isn't he already ruling the world now?

 

> We don't know. That's why I don't buy your assumption that he (a)wouldn't be able

> to get much done, or (b)would be wasting his time.

 

Anybody who's tried to work two jobs at once knows that even if you're talking about mundane things, it's still a scheduling conflict pain in the butt. Here, you're talking about one man simultaneously being both Captain America and the Red Skull. Neither of them simply has enough vacant hours in their day!

 

[snip]

> Paraphrasing isn't deceptive.

 

It is when nothing even remotely like the 'paraphrased' text exists, which I proved via a rather extensive text-search. As well you know.

 

[snip]

> I'm responding to these posts because I want guys like Crackerjacker to feel free to

> post their ideas and they should expect a friendly discourse about what they've

> come up with. I'm not trying to prove my moral or intellectual superiority.

 

Right. You're indulging in this huge-ass discussion about my alleged mental and personal flaws just to give newbies a more encouraging environment to post in. There is absolutely nothing personal or nothing to prove here what-so-ever.

 

 

Let me know when Elvis gets here, all right?

 

[snip]

> Another assumption. Think about it. Why would I have hedged my remark as to

> whether or not he was a mentalist?

 

The usual reason anybody hedges anything -- so that no matter which way it breaks out, they can claim they were right? That's why they /invented/ hedging, after all...

 

[snip]

> I'm going to stop this before it gets more out of hand [snip]

 

You're about two days too late, seeing as how it got 'out of hand' about five minutes after you first butted into this thread. Still, better late than never. Don't hurry back.

[Crackerjacker]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

Agent X, I really dont mind letting ChuckG's comments stand.

 

and ChuckG, you do have valid points but you have put Agent X on the defensive (on my behalf, strangely)

 

Not that I dont appreciate this debate, but I think that you should both just agree to disagree and let this go.

[Agent X]

Re: The Last Hurrah (adventure for your use)

 

Agent X, I really dont mind letting ChuckG's comments stand.

 

and ChuckG, you do have valid points but you have put Agent X on the defensive (on my behalf, strangely)

 

Not that I dont appreciate this debate, but I think that you should both just agree to disagree and let this go.

I pretty much did.