Code VS Killing Poll

[zornwil]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Whew, I'm worn out, guys, i kinda tuned out the last couple pages.

 

Anything new happen?

 

Anyway, I'm not sure we're not all talking past eachother now or simply saying the same things in such a way as to violently agree.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Realistically' date=' but don't forge tthe heroes knock down buildings and fight super-battles which would normally leave scores dead. We rarely, if ever, saw the horrid results you describe (though in a real world they would happen) and in fact [i']were rarely given anything that alluded to them[/i].

 

There was a short-lived Marvel comic explicitly devoted to this kind of collatoral damage. It was... late 1980s, I think. The title of the comic was "Damage Control". It was mainly played for comedic effect, as I recall.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Whew' date=' I'm worn out, guys, i kinda tuned out the last couple pages. Anything new happen?[/quote']

 

The last couple of pages have been very good, actually (other than the occasional barbed comments, which have for the most part been mercifully brief).

[Darth Continent]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I'm still stunned by the revelation that the New England Patriots were killed in the Global Guardians Universe, and remain dead. Talk about the petty vengeful acts of tin gods...

 

(I am totally kidding, by the way. At least about the petty vengeful tin gods part -- did the GGUNFL just decide not to have SuperBowls in '01 and '03?)

[nexus]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I'm gettting more and more tempted to do a "War of the Gods" campaign where Metahuman extremisim runs rampant with the PCs caught in the middle. It could be very exciting.

[Wanderer]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I'm gettting more and more tempted to do a "War of the Gods" campaign where Metahuman extremisim runs rampant with the PCs caught in the middle. It could be very exciting.

 

In that case, you might find the first part of "Kingdom Come" extremely inspirational.

[schir1964]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I'm gettting more and more tempted to do a "War of the Gods" campaign where Metahuman extremisim runs rampant with the PCs caught in the middle. It could be very exciting.

Hmmmm.... very interesting. You should check out Unity at Herocentral site. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[nexus]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Hmmmm.... very interesting. You should check out Unity at Herocentral site. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Oh, tell me of this Unity of which you speak...

[JMcL63]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Yes, they have calmed down. I was just reminding people to look at the section of the board we are in... people forget sometimes.

 

I don't read The Autority, but I get it that they are not a traditional hero team, though they are at the same powerlevel as most tradtional superhero teams.

The Authority are probably more powerful than most superhero teams I'd say.

Brings up another point: Does power level automatically make the genre? I don't think so. Power and points shouldn't make a difference in a discussion like this. I've seen instances where a teen-team of superheroes are lowpowered, while street-level PCs can be built on higher point levels. Its the concept of the genre that decides what is applicable and acceptable when it comes to purposefully using your powers to kill (murder). Accidental deaths happen in any genre. Negligence happens in any genre, too.

You're absolutely correct Mags. I was just responding to your remark about street level characters by noting that the Authority raises the moral issues commonly associated with street-level/vigilante-type settings on a much higher power level, so that the issues commonly regarded as appropriate to those were quite relevant here (something you seemed to me to be taking issue with). As for the "concept of the genre", well that's precisely the point at issue.

In the example I stated above, for what had happened in our game, Witchcraft's death was due to extreme negligence on Dominis' part. Whether that comes out in the end is still only my guess. The sad part is that the PC had no remorse and the Player went, "Oh well", shrug.

Well, my favourite superhero is a grim and gritty type who's involved in the war against ultimate evil. He regularly encounters supernatural beasties, daemons, Cthuloid nasties, hordes of ninja goons working for an evil Oriental tong, and so on. He's also encountered some more conventional 4-colour supervillains, but that was before the GM really got into his stride and started to enjoy the more horror-oriented stories.

 

As a renegade ninja, this guy has killed certainly. In fact I can still remember his first kill. I was panicked because his ninja-goon opponents had weapons, so he used his own sword on them and they died. I was shocked. This was when I decided that he would only use his sword when he really needed to, eg. against heavily armoured opponents who could shrug off his fists. And it's not as if his fists are harmless.

 

Me and the GM were sitting in the pub one night many years ago discussing the character. We crunched some numbers and realised that an average martial punch from this guy did some 50% or more BOD to your average goon, meaning that they were all hospitalised and perhaps crippled for life. Did I decide that he should pull his punches? Not a bit of it. Both myself and the GM decided that this was what the character was like. As an ubermensch without armour, and as a trained and experienced ninja warrior, the very idea of pulling his punches in a combat zone was anathema. He wants to make sure that the people he hits don't get up.

 

All this might sound a bit grim, vigilantish even. But this guy is a superhero, my superhero. I've never had any problems over him with GM's or other players. Killing is just something that he sometimes has to do in the unexpectedly harsh reality he found himself in when he decided that he wanted to be a good guy.

Without sounding too preachy, Superheroes shouldn't be heartless killers. Ever. If you want to run the other kind... the anit-hero (i.e. Wolverine) either be prepared to face the music or play in a different genre is all I'm saying.

 

Mags

Again, you're defining superhero as if the 4-colour definition is absolute and definitive. Surely you have to accept that this is no longer the case, that the genre has broadened beyond that? That said, you are right about the 'heartless' bit. But is Wolverine really heartless? I never really saw him as that. More like efficient and hardened.

 

My character certainly isn't heartless, even though he is certainly not the kind to suffer angst if he has to kill his enemies to prevail. He regards himself as a soldier in a war that is bigger than the world he lives in, a soldier who is fighting the good fight moreover. He puts his life on the line to defend a whole bunch of people who, if they even knew he existed, would probably regard him as a psychopathic killer, or worse. And he does this without fanfare or reward. Is this not an adequate definition of a hero? I think it is.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

You are as entitled as anyone else to a little harmless "if I had a rocket launcher" fantasy now and then, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "slaughter" and "superhero" are two words which I do not ordinarily associate with one another.

 

(That's your cue, Worldmaker. )

 

 

I am not the kind of person who says "I told you so", since I think the sociopathic example stands for itself.

[JMcL63]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

To put things into persepctive' date=' I also said that they would take care that innocents (ship crews and factory workers) are spared, and they would do such things to put environment-harming activities out of business, and they would slaughter dictatorial and genocidal governments, and that a democratic government that was willing to risk nuclear destruction of earth just to prevent revolutionary superheroes to enforce theri agenda on them would be genocidal, and therefore worth extermination.[/quote']This reminds me of more of the ideas I had when I was first GM'ing superheroes back in the mid-late '80's. Basically I wanted to create a team who did precisely the sort of things described here (they were going to be superpowered ecoactivists if I remember rightly). Then I was going to bring the PC's into conflict with them. Once again, the idea was to confront the players with the ambiguities of their roles as superheroes in the classic 4-colour mould.

 

The US government bit: I said that I hate and despise Bush and his cronies so much that if I run a "cosmic superhumans at war vs. governments" scenario, I would make sure that it would include a scene of superhumans storming White House, deposing Bush on live TV and executing him (but I would make sure there would be good dramatic justification for the act, such as sending super-assassins against characters and loved ones, or ordering to use WMD in populated areas to eliminate the characters), just as sheer wish fulfillment, and because it would be a really epic and dramatic scene. Hey ID4's director blew up White House, and Mark Millar did the "White House Sotrming" scene twice, why couldn't I?

As I noted in an earlier post, I too considered giving major real world politicians walk-on parts as NPC's in my early games. It's certainly something I will do in the future. I just have to figure out where they fit.

[JMcL63]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

On the second' date=' I find it unplausible, that Midnighter would find Tank Man "unbeatable". He has dispatched far worse. Rather, he senses Tank Man is in the same quandary he was years ago before he defected, and shows his opponent a way out, drawing from his own experience.[/quote']I've just come from rereading this bit (all this talk of The Authority has sent me off to reread my complete collection). Actually, Midnighter was trapped under rubble and Tank Man has him at his mercy. But Midnighter empathises with Tank Man, who ends up deciding to rescue him. They hug, and then Midnighter lets Tank Man leave, because he's no longer a threat. That story arc ends with Midnighter receiving a letter from Tank Man, who is no longer a super villain, but a reformed family man.

[Stray Cat]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I am always mindful that these kind of people are liable to be comfortable to obey unjust orders and laws' date=' no matter the consequences to innocents, so I'm extremely suspicious of those who put laws before their conscience. [/quote']

 

I think there are some major disconnects between political philosophies here as well as some incorrect assumptions. You assume that the superheroes in the comics have put the law before conscience. But it is my position that the law is derived from societal conscience just as governmental authority is based on the consent of the governed. There is no question in my mind that real superheroes would rightly refuse to comply with unjust laws.

 

Well, to return to the main point, I was not saying that superhumans that put laws before anything else do not exist. They do. They just are not likely to pursue the career of the independent vigilante superhero, but to seek some kind of direct government sanction, and work as a super-cop, super-soldier, or super-spy. If one gets superpowers, and engages the career of the independent superhero, it is most likely that they will do it out of a motivation (like sense of responsibility, or noblesse oblige) that makes likely personal morality is paramount in their minds to sheer law-abiding. Since, to my knowledge, most superheroes do not work for the government, it follows that most of them should be of the type that utlimately puts conscience first, laws second.

 

As I said previously, most superheroes actually do coordinate with authorities or have some sort of government stamp of approval. And besides, it doesn't take government approval to do the right thing. I disagree with your position on superhuman psychology. I do not think that simply being granted abilities many (or even a few) orders of magnitude above normal people would eradicate years of societal conditioning. Isn't the reason why some people with super powers are considered villains is because of their disregard for society's moral position (as is often reflected in its laws)?

 

Well, anyone is free to play a boyscoutish four-color Superman-like superhero type in any of my games, there are only a very few character types that I cannot stand as played except as NPC to be vilified and slaughtered as they deserve (e.g. "burn the heretic" or "bomb the infidel" religious zealots). I only reserve the right to show some little sneer if they follow a CvK code to the "I do not kill even to save millions" real extreme because IMO that's moral cowardice of the worst kind. I only request equal ground to use and discuss and prefer non-four-color Authority-like vigilante superheroes without being told at any turn that they are not heroes, but scum, villains, criminals, sociopaths, and demons incarnate just because they don't kiss the status quo and the powers that be, and rip out the throats of those who really deserve it, or when it's really necessary.

 

A character with a Total CvK or Four-Color Code of the Hero, Total *might* have some difficulties in my games just because I'm not very good at creating four-color worlds and settings. In the worlds I create, at least some authorities and laws are corrupt and unjust, there are some realistic social issues that don't lend well to four-color heroism, and there are truly bad people that greviously harm innocents and the system does not deal well with. That's not to maliciously harass four-color heroes, it's that I deem a four-color world too implausible to heartfelt depict.

 

I'm thinking that in most comic books and in real life there are also similar circumstances of corrupt authorities and unjust laws, etc. Certainly in my games these circumstances exist. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. In the venues where my characters tend to operate, even though there are corrupt officials and terrible wrongs, there also exist methods of correction. Why not work within those legitimate methods rather than devolve society into what Hobbes decried as a "war of every man against every man"? A world wherein all (superpowered or otherwise) are guided by conscience rather than consensus is IMO much closer to hellish nightmare than heavenly ideal.

 

Cat

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Sorry if my choice of words offends your sensibilities. Let's then say they would "put an end to"' date=' "remove" or "eliminate" genocidal dictators .[/quote']

 

 

Let it show for the record that, given his previous statements regarding the US government, Wanderer has thus deemed the current US president a "genocidal dictator" worthy of slaughter by a pack of psychotic metahumans acting as self-appointed public avengers.

[JMcL63]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Let it show for the record that' date=' given his previous statements regarding the US government, Wanderer has thus deemed the current US president a "genocidal dictator" worthy of slaughter by a pack of psychotic metahumans acting as self-appointed public avengers.[/quote']Indeed, why not? Let it so be shown. (Bangs gavel.) Bring in the keeper of the records...

 

PS. It's only a game Worldmaker.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

(I am totally kidding' date=' by the way. At least about the petty vengeful tin gods part -- did the GGUNFL just decide not to have SuperBowls in '01 and '03?)[/quote']

 

They were held. Teams without a history of cheating participated.

[nexus]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I've just come from rereading this bit (all this talk of The Authority has sent me off to reread my complete collection). Actually' date=' Midnighter was trapped under rubble and Tank Man has him at his mercy. But Midnighter empathises with Tank Man, who ends up deciding to rescue him. They hug, and then Midnighter lets Tank Man leave, because he's no longer a threat. That story arc ends with Midnighter receiving a letter from Tank Man, who is no longer a super villain, but a reformed family man. [/quote']

 

Take this with grain of salt one must coming from a major fan, just as you should take my reading of the situation with one as well....

[JMcL63]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Realistically' date=' but don't forge tthe heroes knock down buildings and fight super-battles which would normally leave scores dead. We rarely, if ever, saw the horrid results you describe (though in a real world they would happen) and in fact [i']were rarely given anything that alluded to them[/i]. Worst I remember of Doom was the occassional hapless aide or the not-being-executed but still miserable wretches of his kingdom.

Good point zornwil. This is another of the things that I think Ellis set out consciously to address in The Authority, given the scale of property damage that occurs in that comic. And too the fact that the Authority regularly assist in the cleanup and rescue operations that follow their battles.

 

Your point also tends, to my mind at least, to undermine the basic 4-colour morality at source. In an odd way, I feel that this is a sort of mirror image of how 4-colour morality related to the world as a whole: just as 4-colour comics existed in a peculiar world of their own, whose underlying premise was to ignore the real world, so too were the consequences of superpowered conflict ignored in that world. That is to say: no messy dead civilians to clutter up the squeaky clean morality of the costumed do-gooders.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

The Authority are probably more powerful than most superhero teams I'd say.

 

Most PC teams, maybe, though not the team in my current campaign. Comic book teams? The Justice League would roll them up like a carpet.

[JMcL63]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Take this with grain of salt one must coming from a major fan' date=' just as you should take my reading of the situation with one as well....[/quote']Don't get you here nexus. What are you saying? I am a big fan, that's true, but are you suggesting that the scene didn't pan out the way I said? Like I said, I don't get your point here.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Indeed, why not? Let it so be shown. (Bangs gavel.) Bring in the keeper of the records...

 

PS. It's only a game Worldmaker.

 

Its an exchange of ideas. I find his ideas dangerously insane because despite his protests to the contrary he is using the same precise arguments that the Nazi's used to justify the slaughter of so many "undesirables".

[nexus]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Good point zornwil. This is another of the things that I think Ellis set out consciously to address in The Authority, given the scale of property damage that occurs in that comic. And too the fact that the Authority regularly assist in the cleanup and rescue operations that follow their battles.

 

Your point also tends, to my mind at least, to undermine the basic 4-colour morality at source. In an odd way, I feel that this is a sort of mirror image of how 4-colour morality related to the world as a whole: just as 4-colour comics existed in a peculiar world of their own, whose underlying premise was to ignore the real world, so too were the consequences of superpowered conflict ignored in that world. That is to say: no messy dead civilians to clutter up the squeaky clean morality of the costumed do-gooders.

 

Actually, the Authority does a good job of ignoring the reality of its conflicts. Several major cities have been effectively destroyed in the course of the series. The Japanese Archipelgo depopulated. A few cities flooded recently. Florida almost destroyed completely, Moscow wiped out by massive insect creatures, etc. Massive destruction. Yet you really do not see the global impact of such massive destruction beyond shock value scenes of piles of dead bodies.

 

The silly "four color" comics you describe have also dwelt on the destruction caused by superhumans battles.

 

But can we please start a "Rah rah Authority" thread for this?

[nexus]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Don't get you here nexus. What are you saying? I am a big fan' date=' that's true, but are you suggesting that the scene didn't pan out the way I said? Like I said, I don't get your point here. [/quote']

 

I'm saying your evaluation, given my own reading strikes me as too glowing. My own, given my disdain for the work is likely too cynical. So the "truth" likely lies somewhere in the middle.

[JMcL63]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

Actually' date=' the Authority does a good job of ignoring the reality of its conflicts. Several major cities have been effectively destroyed in the course of the series. The Japanese Archipelgo depopulated. A few cities flooded recently. Florida almost destroyed completely, Moscow wiped out by massive insect creatures, etc. Massive destruction. Yet you really do not see the global impact of such massive destruction beyond shock value scenes of piles of dead bodies.[/quote']Fair comment I guess.

 

The silly "four color" comics you describe have also dwelt on the destruction caused by superhumans battles.

I suppose they have. But I suspect that this doesn't take centre stage in quite the way that it does in The Authority, even if, for the sake of being a comic, The Authority can no more follow that logic through to the post-holocaust wasteland than could any other superhero comic.

 

Oh, and btw, for me this debate is not about not liking classic 4-colour comics. It's rather about challenging the notion (sillier, to my mind, than 4-colour comics) that only 4-colour characters are true superheroes, and that because they don't kill. It seems that I haven't made that clear already.

 

But can we please start a "Rah rah Authority" thread for this?

I think it's already way too late for that nexus, but I think we're doing a fairly good job of keeping The Authority comments focussed on issues arising from the debate.

[JMcL63]

Re: Code VS Killing Poll

 

I'm saying your evaluation' date=' given my own reading strikes me as too glowing. My own, given my disdain for the work is likely too cynical. So the "truth" likely lies somewhere in the middle.[/quote']I guess I could've added that Midnighter only did this because he had to find an alternative to using his fists, because he was trapped under rubble? That it was a survival tactic in other words? The rest is pretty indisputable if you read the scene.

 

PS. Righto, back to the comics now! (That icon's just for you nexus! )