Eliminating Killing Attacks

[ghost-angel]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Dust Raven' date=' your experience seems to be based on players and a GM who voluntarily refrain from exploiting the called shot tactic. Have you ever had someone in your group "break the unwritten rule" and specifically build and play to exploit the called shot?[/quote']

 

I'm not going to answer for Dust Raven's experience and his gamign group...

 

But I have, in one game, created a character who is built to expoit this - and does so to devestating effect.

 

Invisiblity Power - to pretty much everything in the book.

IPE on all attacks at the highest level.

+4 Skill Levels with the largest attack

+3 PSL to offest range, should I not be at point blank, and rarely am.

8 OCV

 

The attack is a 6D6 RKA (it's a high powered campaign)

 

They're at 1/2 DCV just because of my Invisibility. So, on a standard 8 DCV enemy they are now a 4 DCV, my OCV effectively counters the -8 Call Head Shot, the 4 SLs effectively counter the standard DCV. I'm at a flat 11- to hit and kill any target on the field assuming they are within 16 hexes of me or so (well, at 9+ hexes it's a 10- still good odds).

 

a Couple of PSLs vs called shots or a few more SLs in general and I start to dramatically increase my odds of taking down a target with one round. Called shots are, IMO, as deadly as they should be.

[zornwil]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

It seems to me the system is richer for having a simple Killing Damage system that can be easily removed or toned down or, if desired, complicated, than not having one or having one that requires more thought than the d6-1 multiplier. This allows it to cover more genres and playing styles than any of the alternatives I've seen.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Over the weekend, another of my game group decided to adopt the Consistent Killing Damage rule (although he's calling it the Brandon Method, which annoys me). He saw the light after watching 75-point attacks bounce off people with low defenses over and over and over.

 

Yay!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Over the weekend, another of my game group decided to adopt the Consistent Killing Damage rule (although he's calling it the Brandon Method, which annoys me). He saw the light after watching 75-point attacks bounce off people with low defenses over and over and over.

 

Yay!

 

I'm assuming you're going with Standard Effect of 1D6 = 3, or is it simply being applied to STUN?

 

We don't use these rules, I've never had a chance to see them in action, let me know how it goes for the group as a whole.. (part of our group is just loathe to remove the idea of rolling dice, part of it is that we just like some randomocity involved.)

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

I'm assuming you're going with Standard Effect of 1D6 = 3' date=' or is it simply being applied to STUN?[/quote']

 

Do what? No.

 

I'm talking about the Consistent Killing Damage rule, the only house rule I use (all of the others were added to Champions 4, so they aren't house rules anymore):

 

Consistent Killing Damage

(aka "The Brandon Method"

)

Killing damage is rolled the

stanard way

, just like any other damage: 1d6 (one Damage Class) for 5 pts.; the pips on the dice are counted as Stun; in addition, one pip is counted as zero Body, six pips are counted as two Body, and numbers of pips in between are counted as one Body.

 

No ludicrous Stun Lottery. No needlessly complex and inconsistent "this dice multiplied by that dice minus this or that". No worry about a 75-point attack routinely bouncing off a character with less then 20-point defenses.

 

There are a couple of minor changes required to other Advantages and Limitations (Increased/Decreased Stun Multiplier and Penetrating, mainly), but they're trivial. It occurs to me that I should write the house rule up in a coherent form and put it online.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Do what? No.

 

I'm talking about the Consistent Killing Damage rule, the only house rule I use (all of the others were added to Champions 4, so they aren't house rules anymore):

 

Consistent Killing Damage

(aka "The Brandon Method"

)

Killing damage is rolled just like any other damage: 1d6 per Damage Class; the pips on the dice are counted as Stun; in addition, one pip is counted as one Body, six pips are counted as two Body, and numbers of pips in between are counted as one Body.

 

No ludicrous Stun Lottery. No needlessly complex and inconsistent "this dice multiplied by that dice minus this or that". No worry about a 75-point attack routinely bouncing off a character with less then 20-point defenses.

 

There are a couple of minor changes required to other Advantages and Limitations (Increased/Decreased Stun Multiplier and Penetrating, mainly), but they're trivial. It occurs to me that I should write the house rule up in a coherent form and put it online.

 

Huh, well - seeing as that's a Normal Attack with the extra bit of a 1 rolled = 1 Body instead of 0 Body, I'll just say that I think the whole thing is ludicrous. But that's me. If it's still 15pts for a Killing Die vs 5 for a Normal Die then the system is way way out of balance... as you pay an extra 10 pts to maybe sorta do an extra body.

 

It is such a MASSIVE deviation from the current system I'm not sure I'd even entertain the idea of using. of course - it's your game so who am I to tell you how to play. Play On and Have Fun.

[Rick]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

I think he still only applies Resistant Defences to the damage. It just normals out the Stun curve...plus gives you a few less body on average. I like it the way it is, except we use 1/2d6 stunx, to avoid the lottery

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Huh' date=' well - seeing as that's a Normal Attack with the extra bit of a 1 rolled = 1 Body instead of 0 Body[/quote']

 

Sorry, that's a typo. I'll go up and fix it. It should be the standard way:

 

1 = 0 Body

2-5 = 1 Body

6 = 2 Body

 

Basically, Killing damage is rolled in the standard way, rather than the ludicrous "this d6 multiplied by that d6 (minus or plus this other thing)" way. (Note: my objection is not that these added steps are difficult. My objection is that they are unnecessary and that they introduce bugs in the game system.)

 

If it's still 15pts for a Killing Die vs 5 for a Normal Die then the system is way way out of balance...

 

Do what? No. No no no. I said 1d6 per damage class. Maybe this will make it clearer:

 

"Killing Attack: Ranged" does not exist. "Killing Attack: Hand to Hand" does not exist. Toss that BS out the window. It's an atavism that should have been expunged when Champions 4 was published.

 

Instead, "Killing damage" is a +0 Advantage on Energy Blast or Hand Attack, just like "Stun Only" is a -0 Limitation. You roll the damage. You count the Stun. You count the Body. Bingo, done, you're finished. No extra ridiculous steps. No dumb-ass Stun Lottery. No 75-point attacks (15 Damage Classes) routinely bouncing off of 20 DEF characters without inflicting even a single point of Stun. Simpler, faster, more effective, more balanced, more playable, less annoying, more consistent, more elegant, easier to explain... better in every way.

 

Now a few people will list the supposed "drawbacks" of making Killing Damage consistent with the rest of the game system. I'm not going to bother debunking them again. You can read my previous responses in the "Polishing Hero system" thread if you want, but frankly I think it's self-evident that the objections are absurd (no one should need to be told that the Stun Lottery is a flaw in the game system, for example).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Well ....

 

whatever, like I said it's your game.

 

 

I won't disagree that the STUN Lottery is certainly a pain in the backside - but eliminating the KA from the game because of that bit is, well, stupid.

 

You want to eliminate the STUN Lotto? there are several optional rules in the book that are much better and easier:

 

Hit Locations (though you add an additional roll to each attack)

Flat x3 STUN Multiple (pg270 of FRED)

Standard Effect (this eliminates the die roll altogether)

 

everything else proposed in this thread is, IMO, just as utterly broken as the STUN Lotto. Probably more so.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

everything else proposed in this thread is' date=' IMO, just as utterly broken as the STUN Lotto. Probably more so.[/quote']

 

You think the Energy Blast mechanic (xd6) is more broken than the Killing Attack mechanic (xd6 * (1d6 - y))?? That's an objection I certainly did not expect. Pray tell, what is wrong with the Energy Blast mechanic, and what would you propose to fix it?

[zornwil]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Calling the STUN lottery a flaw is an opinon, not fact. Let's just be very clear on that.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Calling the STUN lottery a flaw is an opinon' date=' not fact. Let's just be very clear on that.[/quote']

 

Thanks for proving my point.

[zornwil]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Thanks for proving my point.

You're welcome.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

You think the Energy Blast mechanic (xd6) is more broken than the Killing Attack mechanic (xd6 * (1d6 - y))?? That's an objection I certainly did not expect. Pray tell' date=' what is wrong with the Energy Blast mechanic, and what would you propose to fix it?[/quote']

 

Killing Attack Stun = xD6 * 3.

 

it's outlined on Page 270 of the Fifth Editions Rulebook.

 

 

gee that was easy.

 

Another Note:

75 Active Point Attac vs 20 DEF.

 

Normal - average Body = 15

Killing - average Body = 18

 

It should regulary bounce off of 20 DEF.

 

Stun aside, the Normal Attack will do more Stun on average, but that's because it's supposed to, Killing Attacks are supposed to do more Body on average.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

gee that was easy.

 

Easier than answering the question, apparently.

[JMcL63]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

I remember this same discussion coming up on the old boards, and I still have the same opinion now that I had then. The KA StunX lottery is a mechanism that is both authentic (ie. neatly reproduces the way that this kind of attack tends to work in reality), and at the very heart of HERO's recreation of dramatic action adventure combat. For example, one of my favourite PC's is an ubermensch with no resistant defences. When he faces KA's, apart from his agility, his only other defence is sheer dumb luck. That is, he relies on those low StunX rolls to survive when he does get tagged by a KA. Fiddle with the StunX rules, and any hit by a KA will pretty much automatically take out my PC. In other words, the way that KA works is an intrinsic part of the balance of the HERO combat engine, and of the way in which it models one of the key archetypes of the superhero and other genres- the ubermensch. Fiddle with it all you want (it's your game after all, and no-one can tell you to play it any way other than how you wish), but I don't think you can realistically argue that the mechanic is 'broken', and that your favoured houserules are 'fixes'.

[Gary]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Killing Attack Stun = xD6 * 3.

 

it's outlined on Page 270 of the Fifth Editions Rulebook.

 

 

gee that was easy.

 

Another Note:

75 Active Point Attac vs 20 DEF.

 

Normal - average Body = 15

Killing - average Body = 18

 

It should regulary bounce off of 20 DEF.

 

Stun aside, the Normal Attack will do more Stun on average, but that's because it's supposed to, Killing Attacks are supposed to do more Body on average.

 

 

Depending on the level of defenses, KA's could easily do more average stun than normal attacks. And they have a much better chance of con-stunning the target when defenses/con are relatively high.

[zornwil]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Depending on the level of defenses' date=' KA's could easily do more average stun than normal attacks. And they have a much better chance of con-stunning the target when defenses/con are relatively high.[/quote']

Argh, you said "con-stunning"!

 

Just nit-picking for no good reason!

[zornwil]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

I remember this same discussion coming up on the old boards' date=' and I still have the same opinion now that I had then. The KA StunX lottery is a mechanism that is both authentic (ie. neatly reproduces the way that this kind of attack tends to work in reality), and at the very heart of HERO's recreation of dramatic action adventure combat. For example, one of my favourite PC's is an ubermensch with no resistant defences. When he faces KA's, apart from his agility, his only other defence is sheer dumb luck. That is, he relies on those low StunX rolls to survive when he does get tagged by a KA. Fiddle with the StunX rules, and any hit by a KA will pretty much automatically take out my PC. In other words, the way that KA works is an intrinsic part of the balance of the HERO combat engine, and of the way in which it models one of the key archetypes of the superhero and other genres- the ubermensch. Fiddle with it all you want (it's your game after all, and no-one can tell you to play it any way other than how you wish), but I don't think you can realistically argue that the mechanic is 'broken', and that your favoured houserules are 'fixes'. [/quote']

And that's a "fact"!

 

Seriously, I fully agree with you, except I probably wouldn't go quite so far as to say it's the "heart" of HERO's recreation of heroic fiction, but I think it's a strong mechanic that works well.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

I don't think you can realistically argue that the mechanic is 'broken'' date=' and that your favoured houserules are 'fixes'. [/quote']

 

House rule. Singular. All of the rest were incorporated into Hero 4.

[Agent X]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Thanks for proving my point.

You are unanimous in that, I am sure.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Killing Attack Stun = xD6 * 3.

 

it's outlined on Page 270 of the Fifth Editions Rulebook.

 

 

gee that was easy.

 

Another Note:

75 Active Point Attac vs 20 DEF.

 

Normal - average Body = 15

Killing - average Body = 18

 

It should regulary bounce off of 20 DEF.

 

Stun aside, the Normal Attack will do more Stun on average, but that's because it's supposed to, Killing Attacks are supposed to do more Body on average.

 

Assuming active points that are some multiple of 15, don't they both average the same stun?

 

If you're willing to tolerate a d6 x 3 mechanic, then why not a d6 x N mechanic where N is the number of damage classes?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Assuming active points that are some multiple of 15' date=' don't they both average the same stun?[/quote']

 

Let's use 30 AP for ease of math. 6d6 normal attack averages 21 STUN, 6 BOD.

 

2d6 KA averages 7 BOD and [7 x 2.67 =] 18.69 STUN

 

2.67 being the average of 1,1,2,3,4,5 which can be rolled as a stun multiple.

 

Maybe I'm not responding to what you were talking about?

[JMcL63]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

And that's a "fact"!

 

Seriously, I fully agree with you, except I probably wouldn't go quite so far as to say it's the "heart" of HERO's recreation of heroic fiction, but I think it's a strong mechanic that works well.

Cheers zornwil. Note though, that I only said that it is 'at the very heart', not that it is the very heart!

[jeddy]

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks

 

Depending on the level of defenses' date=' KA's could easily do more average stun than normal attacks.[/quote']

 

Hmm, actually, KAs do slightly lower average STUN. For example, let's take a 4d6 RKA and 12d6 EB (both 60 active pts). The RKA averages 14 BOD, 37 STUN. The EB averages 12 BOD, 42 STUN. The RKA will always do less raw STUN (average or max). Resistant defenses will make the difference here i suppose (lower defenses against the KA's STUN), but IMO, that's compensated for by the extra randomness of the SM. You will get hosed on a roll now and then, and you will score big now and then (well, i've heard that, never done it myself )

 

What i think most people hate about the SM is the fact that you take the KA roll of very few dice, which gives you a bell curve. You then multiply that by 1-5, resulting in a much fatter final bell curve than the EB's bell curve. I assume that's why it's referred to as a "lottery", hehe.

 

My group has been toying with a new KA: 10pts/die, rolled as straight BODY and STUN. That is, a 4d6 RKA is a 40 active point attack, and does the pips rolled as both BODY and STUN. This ends up doing around 50% more BODY, but only 50% the STUN on average. These KAs are deadly. To fix the extra KB they might do, we halved the body for KB purposes at first. We're now trying out counting KB as you would on Normal dice (1pip = 1KB, etc). So far, it's easier than the SM, but i'm still a little uneasy about it myself. I liked the Lottery. =P