What would your character do #83 ?

[Wanderer]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Um' date=' he said [i']not[/i] a postage sized stamp nation. Crown Princess Cyrande is from Malva, one of the most powerful star empires in Champions. Not to mention that on Earth, she could potentially call on Firewing for help, even ignoring the fact she is personally at Ult. Magneto's power level. Of course, she has enemies who can/will ignore all that, but the governments of the world aren't amoung them.

 

I had acknowledged Cyrande's background (nice character idea, BTW; what are her powers ?), I was just commenting on the fact that even diplomatic immunity from postage sized stamp nation seemed adequate IMO in this case. The character is just aiding and abetting a fugitive, not smuggling WMDs or otherwise threatening national security.

[SKJAM!]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

I have to admit that in some ways, the fact that the Governor/President is such a nutcase is *far* more disturbing than that an innocent man might have been wrongly convicted. After all, the entire idea behind the appeals process is that a miscarriage of judgement *might* in some rare cases happen.

[OddHat]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

I have to admit that in some ways' date=' the fact that the Governor/President is such a nutcase is *far* more disturbing than that an innocent man might have been wrongly convicted. After all, the entire idea behind the appeals process is that a miscarriage of judgement *might* in some rare cases happen.[/quote']

 

Yup. Any of my characters would make it a priority to find out what was going on with the Governor / President, especially if he were insane enough to try to fight the kind of media circus that Style or Flesh could bring down on him.

[Wanderer]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

I agree about the President, but on the Governor level, the likelihood of a borderline nutcase "hanging judge" or metahuman hater getting elected doesn't seem so far-off to me, especially taking into account the ongoing strong popularity of "tough on crime" political platforms in all major democracies.

 

Anyway, I speak from second-hand knowledge here, but IIRC, the President only has power of appeal over federal crimes. If we assume a state case (as it is more likely), then the Governor is the only one invested with pardon power, right ?

[Metaphysician]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

I'm pretty sure the President has power of pardon for state and local crimes, too. Even if he doesn't, if the President suggests to a governor that he reconsider a really, really stupid action, it should carry strong weight, especially if the President is same party as the Governor.

 

Basically, there is no way for this to work without the governor in question being either bugfuck insane or mentally controlled.

[OddHat]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

 

Basically, there is no way for this to work without the governor in question being either bugfuck insane or mentally controlled.

 

I agree with this, but on the other hand it just leads to a cool series of adventures as the party tries to deal with an insane or mind controlled governor.

[Metaphysician]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

True, that would be a potential basis for a story arc. Still, its definitely a different result than the apparent intention: instead of dealing with a moral dilemma, the heroes get to deal with bodysnatchers instead.

 

Hmm, maybe its Masquerade. . .

[OddHat]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

If it's mind controll, there's no dillema. However, an insane guvernor is a serious problem. Can a Hero who believes in democracy act outside the law to circumvent the legal decisions of a legitimately elected official? Would they use mind control to usurp the government of a state?

 

It could get messy.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

For whatever reason, the sentence *can't* be reformed and the Governor/President *won't* issue a pardon under any circumstances.

The Governor/President got elected on an unreasonably rigid "tough on crime", anti-metahuman agenda, refuses to meet super-charismatic guy in person, wears the latest model of anti-mind-tampering gadget bestowing +60 EGO and +60 PRE, Only To Resist PRE Attacks (-1), has "Fanatically Tough On Crime", "Won't Break A Political Pledge" and/or "Distrusts Metahumans" Total Psych Lims, and/or is the type of person that secretely thinks it's better to sacrifice an innocent than having a guilty get it away with it.

 

An assumption of the scenario is that the character *won't* be able to easily wriggle out of the quandary by having the guy quickly pardoned or the sentence reformed through normal legal channels. At least not within the normal time constraints of the scenario: e.g. it might be possible to get him pardoned in a few years, but the exceution is scheduled within the next week.

It's at this point I'd no longer play in your game. I hate railroads.

 

But if forced to play along for whatever reason:

 

Cobalt: After failing to get a meeting with those who could offer a pardon or allow another appeal, he'd start a campain to make public all the information about the crime, how the man is proven innocent due to new evidence and how the governer doesn't seem to care. Not only that, the governer is apparently possess of highly advanced mind altering technology (allows the public to draw its own conclusion). Eventually he'll offer a public ultimatem to the courts and governer: Free this man, or the government in this state will collapse due to your own incompetence.

 

Vantage: After finding out the governer has massive shielding, he'll immediately suspect foul play. He'll see to it that the evil governer has some sort of "accident" and is removed from office, leaving the next in line (who's more than willing to offer a pardon, and if not, Vantage will just make sure enough accidentds happen, or just one huge one, that leaves a person who'll grant the pardon in office).

 

Zectron: After realizing his government is corrput, he'll just barge in and rescue the innocent man held against his will. With his reputation, this should be the only message he needs to send to anyone to confince them of the truth.

 

Kristian Rolyat: Not really a superhero and is hiding out, so really wouldn't have anything to do but feel sorry for the guy.

[BcAugust]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

I had acknowledged Cyrande's background (nice character idea' date=' BTW; what are her powers ?), I was just commenting on the fact that even diplomatic immunity from postage sized stamp nation seemed adequate IMO in this case. The character is just aiding and abetting a fugitive, not smuggling WMDs or otherwise threatening national security.[/quote']

 

Ah. Perhaps, though the US has a mixed record of diplomacy with several smaller nations.

 

Cyrande's power is a connection with the Universal field of the Universe. She can manipulate any forces she can comprehend. (Ie. Anything EM, nuclear, or gravitonic are in her grasp. No mental or magical powers) Most of the rest of her abilities are from a)growing up in an extremely high tech society(has a personal AI and such) b)Her position as heir to Malva c) Her knowledge of history and wider galactic studies

[Acroyear]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

I think in pretty much every case, we'd take down the guy planning the jailbreak. In addition, my less heroic character would bust him out but fake his death or something and keep him for herself (this character, btw, has the authority and/or legal and political connections to get him out legally...but it would defeat her purpose to use them in this capacity).

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Sludge: Easy. Not care. (Villain-ling)

 

Flippant: Well, if they seem innocent, executing them seems a shame. He'd check the details of the 'ironclad execution' with someone, and then jailbreak. Probably by switching him with an otherdimensional clone who really IS guilty. (or at least ALSO on death row, with no hope of appeal).

 

If reformed, would show public sorrow. But no jailbreak.

 

Estatua: Well, not in US, but South America. I _think_ the South Warriors might have the clout to save someone legitimately; if not, he'd be heartbroken. (either scenario)

[Acroyear]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

You know, in many of these situations I'd obliterate Horus-Re's assumed infallibility.

 

I'd let him talk to the prisoner. I'd let him sense that the prisoner is being truthful when he says "I'm innocent of this crime." I'd let him essentially muscle the prisoner's freedom with his cult of personality.

 

And then the prisoner would commit a horrendous crime again. You see, truth =/= fact. He may honestly believe he is innocent, claiming to be innocent is entirely truthful... and then the extra dimensional entity that once possessed him (but isn't there right then, so no detecting bad guys... because he is elsewhere now) will detect that he is no longer in prison and is a useful vessel, once more, and possess him again.

 

Not trying to offend or anything, but answers to these things seem to include a lot of "I ask my old buddy Horus-Re to look into it, then he says 'boo' and the world bends over backwards."

 

Obviously, I wouldn't be well suited to that campaign

[Wanderer]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Ah. Perhaps' date=' though the US has a mixed record of diplomacy with several smaller nations. [/quote']

 

Well, US government just swallowed the bitter pill when Polanski took refuge in Europe. True, it was statutory rape and not a capital case, but still...

 

Cyrande's power is a connection with the Universal field of the Universe. She can manipulate any forces she can comprehend. (Ie. Anything EM, nuclear, or gravitonic are in her grasp. No mental or magical powers) Most of the rest of her abilities are from a)growing up in an extremely high tech society(has a personal AI and such) b)Her position as heir to Malva c) Her knowledge of history and wider galactic studies

 

Way interesting. Your character's powers and background are in several ways similar to mine's. He channels the fundamental energy of reality through cosmic radiation, and is a 21-st Century Earth displaced refugee from a Galactic Champions alternate timeline. If they either met, they might even become friends, or even intimate (he's an uncorregible ladies' man, and they would have similar backgrounds). I would be most curious to look at Cyrande' write-up, stats and personality.

[BcAugust]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

You know, in many of these situations I'd obliterate Horus-Re's assumed infallibility.

 

I'd let him talk to the prisoner. I'd let him sense that the prisoner is being truthful when he says "I'm innocent of this crime." I'd let him essentially muscle the prisoner's freedom with his cult of personality.

 

And then the prisoner would commit a horrendous crime again. You see, truth =/= fact. He may honestly believe he is innocent, claiming to be innocent is entirely truthful... and then the extra dimensional entity that once possessed him (but isn't there right then, so no detecting bad guys... because he is elsewhere now) will detect that he is no longer in prison and is a useful vessel, once more, and possess him again.

 

Not trying to offend or anything, but answers to these things seem to include a lot of "I ask my old buddy Horus-Re to look into it, then he says 'boo' and the world bends over backwards."

 

Obviously, I wouldn't be well suited to that campaign

 

*blinks* But the guy is still innocent, correct. The proper superhero thing would be to find out why the guy got convicted also, and then take care of the entity.

 

And one of the reasons that a lot come out like that is that Horus is the most experienced of the group, and the leader, and one of the most respected people on Earth, all things he's payed for, I might add. Besides, we're a team... well, supposedly. It doesn't make sense for the less experienced characters to not go to the team leader.

[BcAugust]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Well' date=' US government just swallowed the bitter pill when Polanski took refuge in Europe. True, it was statutory rape and not a capital case, but still...[/quote']

 

I'd like to point out we've executed foreign nationals before, and the current Bobby Fisher thing is awful annoying.

 

Way interesting. Your character's powers and background are in several ways similar to mine's. He channels the fundamental energy of reality through cosmic radiation' date=' and is a 21-st Century Earth displaced refugee from a Galactic Champions alternate timeline. If they either met, they might even become friends, or even intimate (he's an uncorregible ladies' man, and they would have similar backgrounds). I would be most curious to look at Cyrande' write-up, stats and personality.[/quote']

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20797 This is her sheet and stats. Honestly, for the best guess on her personality, read the last few games on the linked thread at the top.

[Metaphysician]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

If it's mind controll, there's no dillema. However, an insane guvernor is a serious problem. Can a Hero who believes in democracy act outside the law to circumvent the legal decisions of a legitimately elected official? Would they use mind control to usurp the government of a state?

 

It could get messy.

 

This is when you bring evidence of his insanity before those capable of removing him. There's a reason impeachment exists, after all. . .

[Metaphysician]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

So, Acroyear, you allow players to purchase abilities that you then screw over, effectively stealing points from them??

[Acroyear]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Keep in mind I can be totally off base on the campaign and a great many things due to my limited exposure to the world and the characters.

 

*blinks* But the guy is still innocent' date=' correct. The proper superhero thing would be to find out why the guy got convicted also, and then take care of the entity.[/quote']

 

Perhaps, perhaps not. Just because he didn't commit the crime doesn't mean he didn't want to. What if he was a willing vessel? Depends on what was asked and what was used as the criteria. The nonchalant feeling I get from the text indiciates to me that not much thought is given to it. "Hey did you do it?" No, I didn't. "Ok, I'll get you out."

 

And how would you take care of the entity? You don't even know it exists. When you do find out about it, it's too late. He needs to be imprisoned or killed... he's like a demonic typhoid mary.

 

No failsafes are in place about a guy who claims to be a god (we won't even discuss how religious people react to that, I'll assume the campaign is sympathetic to such things and no one thinks he's insane or something) saying "Oh, he's telling the truth. let him go... you know, as a favor to me because I'm so grand." Um... no. How about some evidence better than what was used to convict him?

 

Essentially what would be done in the scenario I suggest is this guy throws his weight around (his rep, his cult of personality) and it resulted in more horrible things. He only needs to be "wrong" once and then you will no longer have Presidents of nations dropping everything to give appointments and letting convicted criminals go just because he says so. Proof must be brought forward, not the word of someone about a power that can't be quantified as beyond error.

 

And what of the thousands of other convicts who then say "hey, what about me? I'm innocent, too... come listen to me tell the truth then tell the governor to set me free?"

 

I'd never, ever trust in the "infallibility" of a person/character like that. I get the impression his powers are well known. Whatever sense power he has to "detect truth" or whatnot could be fooled with illusions or images or something.

 

And one of the reasons that a lot come out like that is that Horus is the most experienced of the group, and the leader, and one of the most respected people on Earth, all things he's payed for, I might add. Besides, we're a team... well, supposedly. It doesn't make sense for the less experienced characters to not go to the team leader.

 

Makes the other characters seem squeamish and unreliable, to me. Or maybe they're just message boys for the people who approach them for help. "Hi, Hero Guy. I have this problem. You're not much good to me, but can you fetch your buddy Horus-Re for me?"

 

Don't take this as a slam against high powered play, either. I have a character over 2k points that lasted well over a decade. I also have a 'god' character with some unique senses he relies on to make judgements, too. But I'm never so crazy as to trust those abilities as flawless enough to go throwing my rep around to get convicted criminals set free with so little input

 

Which is why I'd say I'd obliterate the infallible impression people have of these powers and abilities. A useful tool, yes, but it can be fooled and can't be relied on with such, for lack of a better word, arrogance.

 

I mean, look at these answers... if they don't go along with us, they must be insane. We have them removed of their duties because they must be crazy or under some sort of mental dominance. They'd never get elected if they don't like him. I'm sure there's lots of people who would dislike him if he actually acted like that in the same fashion people dislike some celebrities who use their status to push there way around and get out of criminal punishments.

 

I have no problem with the character concept or powers. I have a problem with the assumed infallibility. I'd something like the above just to diminish the reliance on the power (I've seen it mentioned a number of times) just the same way I'd take steps to diminish reliance on telepathy or any other such thing.

 

Again, I could just be reading these responses all wrong.

 

[Acroyear]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

So' date=' Acroyear, you allow players to purchase abilities that you then screw over, effectively stealing points from them??[/quote']

 

No, I don't allow players to completely rely on powers like that and make a point to prove to them that they are not flawless beings. If someone completely relies on a power like that, there's a problem.

 

I also don't allow something like rep to take the place of multiple and very expensive contacts.

 

Edit: I'll expand on the above. The idea is to establish that the power is not flawless and can not be 100% relied upon. It should be a tool, even a very good tool. The rep can be a motivating factor in how people react to the person... however, it is not an ability that = "always get my way." There still has to be safeguards and doubts. It's just a sense, like any other.

 

If it's a balck and white campaign, or a naive campaign, or an eternally optimistic campaign... no problem. I was just saying what I would do.

[OddHat]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

In the scenario we're being asked to look at, all telepathic and detect powers register that the "criminal" is innocent. Meanwhile, the Governor refuses to consider any evidence whatsoever and has mysteriously acquired a massively powerful mind shielding device.

 

So, either we have a case of a GM determined to force a "jail break or innocent man dies" scenario regardless of what the players try to do, or the theory that the Governor is in fact evil and/or insane is looking fairly good.

[Pendaran]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

ookay, I don't really post or read these sorts of things so much, but a friend mentioned the thread to me, so..

 

Hi, the player of Horus Re here, and just some things to mention,

 

I don't use the mystical truth sense like a damned blunt hammer, most of the time I use it to augment the bunches of points I've put into things like deduction and criminology, Horus Re having been around for thousands of years and having fought Nama's touch on the world for a lot of those, he'd head to learn tot hink like a detective often just from that, though inborn kneeness of mind helps. He'd be a damn idiot to not realize that "Truth" isn't always the full story of things, and what Acroyear mentions sounds like a scheme Nama would come up with when drunk to try and screw around with him with.

 

As far as the specific situation, in the case of innocence, barring railroading utter nonsense, Horus would appeal to whoever he needed to to get a delay in the execution so that he could investigate the matter for himself and get proof, and figure out what was going on in full. Before "and what if he dies while in custody during that from vengeful guards/prisoners/Nama/spiteful railroading GM?" well, aside from that he'd also likely make sure the guy would be safe while he does this ("hey Micro? need you to stake somewhere out for a while all tiny size" well, Horus would put it more formally.)

 

He also doesn't use the rep decades of heroic action have warranted, like a blunt hammer, as that would conflict with his desire not to set himself up as the unquestioned overlord of Earth. As a recent example, the President has entered into some deals with Menton that while Horus Re finds wrong, the reasons do actually make sense in an honourable way as far as the situation (long story, but please feel free to snap judge on it based on limited exposure!), Horus response was not to demand all cessation, it was to /give advice/ to someone he respects about the drawbacks of this, and ask to be allowed to take a role in watching over this arrangement and helping to keep it from turning into some horrible disaster.

 

As far as Acroyear... I took a fair bit of time to put my char together, I've been enjoying playing him in campaign, he fills a particular niche in that world as far as doing a JLA analogy, yes, I'd liked to have think I've been handling it well, and not abusing it particularly. I spent time in consultation with the GM and some of the other players putting that char together and discussing said role in the campaign. I've spent sessions further dealing with being in that niche, and, I've liked to think, earning the character being where is he is as far as it goes. To hear "well, I'd try to tear him down just for being too damn shiny" well, it's more than a little insulting to all that.

 

But really, considering his main enemy is damned Nama, he's actually pretty used to schemes like that being hurled his way every few years, and has had a decent record of working around them while actually responding to the core issue in them... *shrugs* again, he'd have the common sense bother to take the time to figure out in depth what is going on, and simply ask his contacts/allies (which, yes, includes the President, again, something justified via rping out interaction with, why, even just recently) to help him have the time in which to do that.

 

 

As far as redemption... that's thornier, it depends on what the crimes in full are, and if the criminal himself believes he has earned death for them. Horus is closer to Thor than Superman in overall personal moral orientation, sometimes a crime is so dark that the only redemption their is is to face death for it honourably.

 

Yes, Horus is a god, as far as it goes, he also feels that the time in which he should openly rule over the nations of man have long since ended, and that his role now is a champion of such, not a king of such.

 

Oh, and yes, the president is a paid for contact, thanks for assuming.

[OddHat]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Edit: I'll expand on the above. The idea is to establish that the power is not flawless and can not be 100% relied upon. It should be a tool, even a very good tool. The rep can be a motivating factor in how people react to the person... however, it is not an ability that = "always get my way." There still has to be safeguards and doubts. It's just a sense, like any other.

 

I actually have no problem with any of this. It's the irational refusal to consider a stay of execution under any circumstances and regardless of possible political fallout together with the incredible super-equipment that makes the Governor a prime suspect.

[Metaphysician]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

So, Acroyear, basically, team heroes aren't supposed to actually forward a problem to the team mate best qualified to deal with them. Gotcha.

 

In any case, another thing you failed to consider is the presence of, well, the rest of the team. A possessing entity might be able to fool Horus-Re's truth sense, if its clever, but it also has to deal with Starguard's ability to perceive soul states, Warmaster Fielan's ability to locate mental alterations ( such as, say, blackout periods ), and if necessary, Microman's ability to maintain continual surveillance on someone in a manner that most mystic beings simply won't account for. But then again, its easy to forget such when one disregards team mates as squeamish message boys.

[BcAugust]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

*sighs* Cyrande has been on Earth less then 24 hours in game time, which is while she has 18 years of experience in one of the most convulted courts ever, she has no understanding of Earth culture, though she can move easily in any diplomatic circles. Horus impresses her, and has been personally vouched for by one of the few aliens she trusts.

 

Starguard has only been a superhero less then a week, and I believe her memory only goes back a month. She's very naive and nervous about messing up. Horus is a father figure, who's been encouraging her to stand on her own two feet, but whom she looks up to majorly.

 

 

Microman II has been active for only a week also. While he has the vast majority of Sentinel history in his databanks, he's still learning about human society. Horus was/is the leader of the Sentinels, so Micro has a great deal of knowledge of Horus's ablilities and trusts him to make the right choice.

 

Warmaster(whose player rarely posts on Heroboards) is an alien general of V'han, who escaped to Earth at the Empresses betrayel of him. Horus, he's mind read and knows is trustworthy, plus he'd be reading the man's mind as well.

 

Now, if you were dealing with a thread that dealed with any of our other specialities... they would be saying we'd call in that person.